CT Only: The Littlest Starship Goes A-Trading

[Grav_Moped]

This 100Td trader exploits one rule re-interpretation, one loophole, and one outright violation (it's supportable, but honestly even I don't like it much).

The interpretation:
The drives in LBB2 are not the only drives that can be built using the formulae underlying the Drives and Power Plants table on LBB2:'81. Size 1/2-A drives are possible. Because the formula for maneuver drive size breaks down below factor-2 in 100Td / factor-1 in 200Td (Size A), assume minimum size is 1Td but cost is as per the formula. (See my post here for the formulae.)

The loophole:
The canon Type Y Yacht has its required 4 weeks of power plant fuel (10Td) but has fuel for two Jump-1s, and it's explicitly declared to be able to jump twice. This means that one flight (week in transit to and from jump limit total, plus a week in jump) uses only half of the 4 week power plant fuel allocation.

The exploit here is that the ship will have only two weeks of powerplant fuel.

The outright violation:
Extend the High Guard rule allowing a computer to replace a small craft bridge, but at one rating lower. The extension is to allow a computer and a small craft bridge to replace a starship bridge, with the computer at one rating lower. (I've used a variant of this to justify jump torpedoes by downrating the computer by two factors when substituting for both a small craft bridge and a starship bridge.)

The ship:
100Td Merchant
Jump-1, 1G, Pn-1. Crew=1, cargo: 66.5Td. Unarmed. MCr18.8 individually, MCr16.92 in quantity excluding design costs.

Item       Tons     MCr      Comments
Bridge      4.5     0.55     Small Craft Bridge plus one seat
Comp        1        4       Model/1bis, acts as Mod/0 except for Jump
Jump-1      7.5      5       Size 1/2-A
MD-1        1        2       Size 1/2-A
PP-1        2.5      4       Size 1/2-A
Fuel       15                J1 & 2 weeks. (2 more weeks is +5Td)
1/2 SR      2        0.25    Half Stateroom. Seat is with bridge.
Hull        4        3       LBB2 Standard Streamlined (4Td drives not used)
Cargo      62.5              
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Totals:   100Td  MCr18.8

 

[Grav_Moped]

Take Two:

Here is another take on the concept, with a different rule violation.

This time, it's rules as written (with the 1/2A drives being an acceptable interpretation) but I'm cheating on the wasted drive bay space. That gets a 4Td demountable fuel tank installed permanently.*

100Td Merchant
Jump-1, 1G, Pn-1. Crew=1, Cargo: 48 Td. Unarmed. MCr16.754 individually, MCr15.079 in quantity excluding design costs

Item       Tons     MCr      Comments
Bridge      20       0.5     Standard Bridge
Comp        1        2       Model/1
Jump-1      7.5      5       Size 1/2-A
MD-1        1        2       Size 1/2-A
PP-1        2.5      4       Size 1/2-A
Fuel       20        0.004   J1 & 4 weeks, 4Td demountable
1/2 SR      2        0.25    Half Stateroom. 
Hull        0        3       LBB2 Standard Streamlined (4Td fuel in drive bay)
Cargo      48              
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Totals:   100Td  MCr16.754

*The fuel stored in the drive bay is burned first to minimize its thermal exposure to the drives. It's in the form of a demountable tank to reflect that it's not a normal (free) fuel tank installation. Drive hits may also destroy the demountable fuel tank, likely causing additional drive damage due to thermal shock and severely injuring any personnel in the engine room. (If the tank is empty, as it will be after Jump initiation, no additional damage besides destruction of the demountable tank occurs.)

Alternatively, if this breaks your concept of the rules, use the Type Y fuel loophole to cut the total fuel tankage by 5Td and add 1Td cargo. Or rule that since the original design rules didn't account for Size 1/2-A Drives, that there's also a 100Td Standard Hull that fits a package of 1/2-A Drives (11Td drive bay) in addition to the one for Size A Drives (15Td drives).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The interpretation:
The drives in LBB2 are not the only drives that can be built using the formulae underlying the Drives and Power Plants table on LBB2:'81. Size 1/2-A drives are possible.

But don't exist in LBB2. They can be built using LBB5, at very different size and cost.

Not an interpretation, just a house rule breaking RAW.

The loophole:

The exploit here is that the ship will have only two weeks of powerplant fuel.

RAW is firm on that spacecraft, even small craft, must always have four weeks PP fuel.

Not an exploit, just a house rule breaking RAW.

The outright violation:
Extend the High Guard rule allowing a computer to replace a small craft bridge,

A small craft bridge is ( 20%, min 4 Dt ), so a small craft bridge for a 100 Dt craft is 20 Dt. No saving...

A 100 Dt craft with a 4 Dt bridge is just a house rule breaking RAW.


Sorry to be so negative, but RAW is very firmly biased against small ships. If you want to make them better, just declare house rules openly, don't pretend they are just minor bending of RAW.

I like the concept of small viable ships, and in some editions they are quite possible (e.g. http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=119607), but unfortunately not using LBB2.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

We can build a small ship with a decent amount of payload using LBB5, so still CT:

ML-1611111-000000-00000-0       MCr 31,1         100 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=1
batteries                                            TL=9
                          Cargo=48 Fuel=11 EP=1 Agility=1

Single Occupancy                                   48        31,1
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             1          100            
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                      8  
Scoops              Streamlined                               0,1
                                                                 
Jump Drive                             1    1       2         8  
Manoeuvre D                            1    1       2         3  
Power Plant                            1    1       3         9  
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-1, 4 weeks            1      11            
Purifier                                    1       9         0,0
                                                                 
Bridge                                      1      20         0,5
Computer            m/1                1    1       1         2  
                                                                 
Staterooms                                  1       4         0,5
                                                                 
Cargo                                              48            
                                                                 
Nominal Cost        MCr 31,14            Sum:      48        31,1
Class Cost          MCr  6,54           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 24,91                                    
                                                                 
                                                                 
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge     1
Passengers            Mid     0           1       Engineers     0
                      Low     0                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     0
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0
                                                                 
                                                                 
Estimated Economy of Ship     Custom                                       
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
        MCr 31,14        kCr 6 539          kCr 130              80%
                                                                 
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                  
Bank                 Cr 62 280          High            Cr      0
Fuel                 Cr  1 100          Middle          Cr      0
Life Support         Cr  2 000          Low             Cr      0
Salaries             Cr  2 400          Cargo           Cr 36 000
Maintenance          Cr  1 246                                   
Berthing             Cr    100                                   
                                                                 
Summa               kCr     69                         kCr     36
                                                                 
     Income potential per jump     kCr -33                    
  Yearly yield on down payment     -12,7%

But quite expensive (MCr 25 in quantity) and not even remotely profitable as a freighter.

 

[Grav_Moped]

We can build a small ship with a decent amount of payload using LBB5, so still CT:[/spoiler]

ML-1611111-000000-00000-0       MCr 31,1         100 Dton
bearing                                            Crew=1
batteries                                            TL=9
                          Cargo=48 Fuel=11 EP=1 Agility=1

Single Occupancy                                   48        31,1
                                     USP    #     Dton       Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             1          100            
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                      8  
Scoops              Streamlined                               0,1
                                                                 
Jump Drive                             1    1       2         8  
Manoeuvre D                            1    1       2         3  
Power Plant                            1    1       3         9  
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-1, 4 weeks            1      11            
Purifier                                    1       9         0,0
                                                                 
Bridge                                      1      20         0,5
Computer            m/1                1    1       1         2  
                                                                 
Staterooms                                  1       4         0,5
                                                                 
Cargo                                              48            
                                                                 
Nominal Cost        MCr 31,14            Sum:      48        31,1
Class Cost          MCr  6,54           Valid      ≥0          ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 24,91                                    
                                                                 
                                                                 
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge     1
Passengers            Mid     0           1       Engineers     0
                      Low     0                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service     0
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0
                                                                 
                                                                 
Estimated Economy of Ship     Custom                                       
       Ship price     Down Payment         Mortgage       Avg Filled
        MCr 31,14        kCr 6 539          kCr 130              80%
                                                                 
Expenses per jump                       Revenue                  
Bank                 Cr 62 280          High            Cr      0
Fuel                 Cr  1 100          Middle          Cr      0
Life Support         Cr  2 000          Low             Cr      0
Salaries             Cr  2 400          Cargo           Cr 36 000
Maintenance          Cr  1 246                                   
Berthing             Cr    100                                   
                                                                 
Summa               kCr     69                         kCr     36
                                                                 
     Income potential per jump     kCr -33                    
  Yearly yield on down payment     -12,7%

[/spoiler]
But quite expensive (MCr 25 in quantity) and not even remotely profitable as a freighter.

Which is precisely the point. Unless you waive rules, the Type S (or Type J) is pretty much as good as it gets in 100Td.

 

[Grav_Moped]

But don't exist in LBB2. They can be built using LBB5, at very different size and cost.

Not an interpretation, just a house rule breaking RAW.



RAW is firm on that spacecraft, even small craft, must always have four weeks PP fuel.

Not an exploit, just a house rule breaking RAW.



A small craft bridge is ( 20%, min 4 Dt ), so a small craft bridge for a 100 Dt craft is 20 Dt. No saving...

A 100 Dt craft with a 4 Dt bridge is just a house rule breaking RAW.


Sorry to be so negative, but RAW is very firmly biased against small ships. If you want to make them better, just declare house rules openly, don't pretend they are just minor bending of RAW.

I like the concept of small viable ships, and in some editions they are quite possible (e.g. http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=119607), but unfortunately not using LBB2.

I was using it as a compromise with my admittedly unreasonable j-torp "computer replaces starship bridge but at 2 levels lower" rules-break (necessary to get anything even remotely resembling a jump torpedo out of LBB5 rules). In other words, in a universe where Jump Torpedoes work, this should too.

I don't play in that kind of universe.

Also, it's a demonstration of how allowing Jump Torpedoes really screws up the rest of the game universe.

 

[Grav_Moped]

The idea behind the 4.5Td bridge was that in a small craft, a 1-ton computer (Mod/1) and a 1/2-ton seat can replace a 19.8-ton bridge (in a 99Td small craft). Perfectly legal in HG.

This means that the computer+seat are able to replace up to 19.8 tons of bridge capability in a small craft.

The minimum small craft bridge (that is, the smallest possible bridge that doesn't require a computer for a craft to function normally) is 4Td in up to a 20Td hull -- and 1Td of that is seats. That last 3Td is the part of a bridge that can't be scaled down any further without throwing megacredits at the problem.

The only qualitative difference in the rules between small craft bridges and starship bridges is the cost. Small craft bridges cost per ton of bridge, starship bridges cost per ton of ship (and are far more expensive).

This gives two directions from which to approach the issue:
1. A small craft bridge (and likely a ship bridge) has up to 18.3Td of equipment (92%) that may be miniaturized at great expense.
2. A small craft bridge (and by analogy a starship bridge) has 3.5Td of equipment that can only be miniaturized (by 43%) at great expense.

I simply ruled that the 4Td small craft bridge equivalent (at starship bridge costs) was the part of bridge tonnage that it costs too much to miniaturize. Add a seat, and the remaining 15.5Td were the part that you could throw money at to make it tiny. (You're still paying for it even after you've bought the computer that replaced it, since the bridge costs are based on ship tonnage.)

Still only a house rule.

Still makes more sense than anything that would allow a jump torpedo.

 

[Grav_Moped]

..

Still only a house rule.

Still makes more sense than anything that would allow a jump torpedo.

Which is to say that if I was committed to the "The Littlest Starship" concept (converted jump torpedo as a 1-person ship) as a legitimate rule change, this 100Td ship could have a 2.5Td "bridge" that consisted of the navigation and control section (Mod/2bis computer) from a Jump Torpedo plus a seat for the pilot. Obviously, not a fully functional bridge, but one sufficient to get the ship from World A to World B if nothing unusual happened along the way. Sensor and communications capabilities would be minimal (it could find a planet from Jump Limit distance, but isn't going to be seeing other ships unless they're pretty close or actively broadcasting their presence).

The 4Td minimum (minimum small craft bridge size) bridge gets much of the sensor and communications capabilities back, and the substituted/downgraded computer covers the control systems.

But I still don't really like it all that much as a rule -- an exception, sure, but not a rule. And it'd have to be seriously nerfed to keep it from being in general use and messing up the game universe.

 

[Grav_Moped]

But don't exist in LBB2. They can be built using LBB5, at very different size and cost.

Not an interpretation, just a house rule breaking RAW.

...

I disagree. Once again, it's a matter of being consistent with the rules as written. No, there aren't half-letter-step drives in LBB2 because of how it was written. But there is nothing about the universe described by those rules that makes half-letter-step drives impossible (with two exceptions: maneuver drives designed to produce less than 200 "tons of thrust", and interpolated performance around the W-Z drive "bonus performance" excursions from their expected values).

I'll concede these are house rules. The difference between a house rule that breaks rules and one that doesn't is consistency with the rules as written.

A Jump Drive that yields J3 in 100Td ("A.5") that's 12.5Td and MCr15 doesn't break the rule that made that section of the Drive Performance Table.

A maneuver drive that yields 1G in 100Td breaks the rules -- and is a point at which the rule itself breaks, because that drive would be 0Td, MCr2.

Resolving it by declaring the minimum size for a maneuver drive is 1Td while the cost is as calculated also breaks the rule, but in an acceptable manner. This is because it not only does it do so in a way that disadvantages ship design, but also in a way consistent with other Traveller design rules (LBB5 small craft design rules).

On the other hand, saying it's 0.5 tons only appears to be acceptable -- it also disadvantages ship design and is proportional to the Size A drive -- but isn't, because it implies that below 1Td of maneuver drive, output is directly proportional to drive tonnage. The implication is that a 50Td small craft would only need 0.25Td of maneuver drive for 1G performance, which is a bit absurd. Yeah, it's less silly than having a negative-sized maneuver drive, but it would still make a mess of small craft design.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Exploiting the "Yacht Fuel Glitch" is another case of being consistent. It's a ship that has the mandatory 4-week powerplant fuel reserve, but is explicitly stated to be able to make two jumps in those four weeks without refueling.

There are three ways to interpret this.
1. The ship only ever uses the extra Jump fuel tankage to make back-to-back jumps for 2-parsec trips, thus only ever uses three weeks of fuel (3.5 days to 100D, 2 weeks jumping, 3.5 days from 100D to destination).
2. The ship can make two jumps at the standard "one-week planetside, one week in jump" cadence without refueling. Thus, the design was approved despite only having fuel for two weeks per jump rather than four per jump.
3. The canon Type Y Yacht is an unsafe design that ought to be illegal, since it has insufficient fuel.


Interpretation 1 is not mentioned as a limitation in the ship description, and can be dismissed.

Interpretation 2 is consistent with starship operations as described in LBB2. However, it is not consistent with the 4-week fuel requirement being grounded in in-universe physical constraints, unlike the jump fuel requirement. This means that the 4-week requirement is arbitrary. Out-of-universe, it's there to handicap smaller ships. In-universe it's almost certainly an arbitrary regulation or at least a best practice. It should be possible (though perhaps legally prohibited in-universe) to build ships with only 2 weeks of power plant fuel. This would be a house rule, but it doesn't break the principle underlying the rules.

Interpretation 3 might be true since there are other flawed canonical ships in LBB2 (wrong drives in the Type R as a case in point). On the other hand, fixing it means changing the flat 4-week fuel rule as well.

 

[mike wightman]

But quite expensive (MCr 25 in quantity) and not even remotely profitable as a freighter.

Build it at TL15 and save yourself 6MCr on power plant cost and gain 2 more tons to play with.
They really should have changed the cost of drives as TL changes in LBB5, there is even a table that makes it look like they thought about it.

That or the discount by TL rules from LBB4 should have been cleaned up and applied.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Build it at TL15 and save yourself 6MCr on power plant cost and gain 2 more tons to play with.

Sure, and gain another 6 Dt from the fuel purifier.

But the TL-15 ship is not really a fair comparison to a TL-9 LBB2 Scout-type ship?

They really should have changed the cost of drives as TL changes in LBB5, there is even a table that makes it look like they thought about it.

That or the discount by TL rules from LBB4 should have been cleaned up and applied.

Do we need the added complexity? LBB5 makes higher tech ships smaller and cheaper with armour and power plants, the difference is dramatic enough.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Sure, and gain another 6 Dt from the fuel purifier.

But the TL-15 ship is not really a fair comparison to a TL-9 LBB2 Scout-type ship?



Do we need the added complexity? LBB5 makes higher tech ships smaller and cheaper with armour and power plants, the difference is dramatic enough.

There's still the difference in ship design paradigms: LBB2 has big jump drives and small maneuver drives, LBB5 has small jump drives (and drop tanks to further reduce the design consequences of high Jns) and big maneuver drives.

The problem with using LBB5 ships in the LBB2/7 oriented trade system is that the trade system expects Jump to be a high-cost (MCr and Td) item, while LBB5 cuts the cost of Jump because it's secondary to LBB5's core: space combat. Jump is just how you get ships into position to shoot at each other...

Square pegs, round holes.