The nature of the book 1-3 Universe

[Max]

Often we create a picture of the Traveler Universe and use the rules to fit that picture. Perhaps we should reverse that. What would the Traveler universe be like if the original rules were an accurate model of the Traveler Universe?

From the trade rules we see that trade per capita goes down as population goes up. An average run to a planet with a 100 souls on it will have your cargo bay filled with over 1/2 ton of junk for each of them, while a load for a planet teaming with 10 billions averages 175 tons, or close enough to 0 each as makes no difference. This can make sense, if the Earth (pop 9) wants to switch to fusion power it makes sense for GE or Siemens to import the plans and build the plants on Earth but if the Vatican City State (pop 3) wants to switch to fusion power it would be more sensible just to import a small fusion plant. At pop 6 (importing 10-100 grams or 140-1400ccs per person) a world would be mostly self-sufficient and imports would be more luxury items than necessities, while at pop 3 worlds would be importing food.

Are there any other conclusions we can draw if the book 1-3 rules accurately depicted the universe?

 

[rancke]

Often we create a picture of the Traveler Universe and use the rules to fit that picture. Perhaps we should reverse that. What would the Traveler universe be like if the original rules were an accurate model of the Traveler Universe?

From the trade rules we see that trade per capita goes down as population goes up. An average run to a planet with a 100 souls on it will have your cargo bay filled with over 1/2 ton of junk for each of them, while a load for a planet teaming with 10 billions averages 175 tons, or close enough to 0 each as makes no difference. This can make sense, if the Earth (pop 9) wants to switch to fusion power it makes sense for GE or Siemens to import the plans and build the plants on Earth but if the Vatican City State (pop 3) wants to switch to fusion power it would be more sensible just to import a small fusion plant. At pop 6 (importing 10-100 grams or 140-1400ccs per person) a world would be mostly self-sufficient and imports would be more luxury items than necessities, while at pop 3 worlds would be importing food.

Are there any other conclusions we can draw if the book 1-3 rules accurately depicted the universe?

If you can truly concluded all that, you must also conclude that your ship is the only one in the universe. After all, it's the only one the rules deal with.

(Just in case I wasn't clear: I think your conclusions are based on a vast number of unspoken and unwarranted assumptions. For example, that the reason you can only find an average of 175 T of freight on a pop A world is that people produce less rather than most of what they produce being carried on other ships).


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Heh, how long until somebody else would have noticed

...while a load for a planet teaming with 10 billions averages 175 tons...

I think you missed a step in the freight calculation there* Don't worry it happens to a few.

* and forgot or ignored incidental cargo

For a Pop A world (with no other DMs) you roll:

3D major cargo lots (average 10.5) and each lot is then calculated by rolling 1D x10 for the tonnage (average 35tons) for a total (average) of 367.5tons (just for major cargo lots, already more than double your 175tons)

4D minor cargo lots (average 14) and each lot is then calculated by rolling 1D x5 for the tonnage (average 17.5tons) for a total (average) of 245tons

6D incidental cargo lots (average 21) and each lot is then calculated by rolling 1D x1 for the tonnage (average 3.5tons) for a total (average) of 73.5tons

So total (average) cargo for a Pop A world is 686tons (almost 4 times your average)

EDIT: OK, those numbers looked a little screwy to me earlier (but I let it slide), the average was high, but somehow it worked out to the average Max had without the D multiplier (which seemed to verify them), weird hunh. Anyway, I guess I looked cross-eyed and used the pax table. Here's take two (ignore the above except for the humour value which is why I'm leaving it) using the cargo table...

For a Pop A world (with no other DMs) you roll:

1D+6 major cargo lots (average 9.5) and each lot is then calculated by rolling 1D x10 for the tonnage (average 35tons) for a total (average) of 332.5tons (just for major cargo lots, almost double your 175tons)

1D+7 minor cargo lots (average 10.5) and each lot is then calculated by rolling 1D x5 for the tonnage (average 17.5tons) for a total (average) of 183.75tons

1D incidental cargo lots (average 3.5) and each lot is then calculated by rolling 1D x1 for the tonnage (average 3.5tons) for a total (average) of 12.25tons

So total (average) cargo for a Pop A world is 528.5tons (just over 3 times your average)

(there, fixed, I think... )

 

[rancke]

So total (average) cargo for a Pop A world is 686tons (almost 4 times your average)

And you both forgotten the speculative cargo. Remember, each time the ship touches down it will fine ONE (count 'em: one) load of speculative cargo. That'll bring the average up a bit.


Hans

 

[Max]

Hans, the spoken and perhaps unwarranted assumption is that the rules accurately model the universe. It is indeed possible to derive the idea that ships are uncommon although I'm not certain the rules mandate that, but the rules specifically mention encounters with other ships so I couldn't accept that the player ship is the only one in the universe.


I started the thread because I realized that in 30 years I've never played a campaign using the 'out-of-the-box' rules of Traveller, in the first game I played after a player's 4th scout suicide the ref wrote the first house rule (players could assign UPP rolls). I thought it would be interesting to see what the universe would be like if there were no house rules.


Perhaps the phrase "can make sense" isn't clear enough, I use it to mean that this is a scheme which may or may not be correct but is consistent with a universe which the rules are an accurate model of.

If the rules are an accurate model of the universe then there is significantly more cargo per capita going to small population worlds than there is to large population worlds. If the rules are an accurate model of the universe there must be an explanation for this. (happy Hans?)

Since I had to think about chargen it brings up the problem that if the character generation rules are an accurate model of the universe then the universe must be highly militarized and very deadly place. Even if the draft is the only source for enlistees for the 3 military branches over 10% of the population serve in one of them. And people are dying in droves, a 4+ survival roll still means 1 of every 12 people in that service die every 4 years (unmodified, but even with the modifier 1 in 6 scouts still dies every 4 year)s. Overall the best case distribution gives 5% of the serving population dying between the ages of 18-22 during the mandatory first term (for comparison the US death rate is running about 81/100,000/year among those 15-24). This would make sense if ... I'm at a loss to make sense of this one.


=======
As for the trade table, did they change that for the 1981 edition? I could have sworn that didn't change until Book7. I was trying to confine things to the first 3 books because it makes the most interesting universe, once you start throwing in later developments the universe changes and starts to make sense all on it's own.

 

[rancke]

If the rules are an accurate model of the universe then there is significantly more cargo per capita going to small population worlds than there is to large population worlds.

You can't know that, because those accurate rules of yours are missing a crucial bit of information, namely how many other ships carry cargo from each world (and how big are their cargo holds).

Incidentally, even if every word in Book1-3 were the exact literal truth, they still wouldn't provide an accurate model of the universe for the simple reason that they are far too small to give an adequate picture of a hamlet, let alone a whole vast universe. The holes are simply too large.



Hans

 

[far-trader]

And you both forgotten the speculative cargo. Remember, each time the ship touches down it will fine ONE (count 'em: one) load of speculative cargo. That'll bring the average up a bit.


Hans

I didn't forget it so much as ignore it

I mean come on, it's not so much "trade" as "treasure hunting" (buy a map, discover a prize, winner every time). I mean "treasure hunting for dummies" it's so easy and bizarre. Come on, how else do you explain "finding" 6 high tech computers just lying there at a backwater Class X starport with a pop code of 0 and a tech code of 0* (and just who do you buy them from for MCr60,000)? Speculative trade is even sillier than the freight system. Humbug. Stupid. Hate it. Have to house rule it to make it useful. Easier to ignore it and hope it goes away (and no, that hasn't worked in over 30 years ).

* shades of The Obelisk from 2001 maybe...

As for the trade table, did they change that for the 1981 edition? I could have sworn that didn't change until Book7. I was trying to confine things to the first 3 books because it makes the most interesting universe, once you start throwing in later developments the universe changes and starts to make sense all on it's own.

See my edit and notes in the post above for a grin

I'll have to take your word that's the way it was in the original LBBs. It was changed then if that's the case for the second edition, and all CT after. Merchant Prince (sigh) was a huge disappointment. I've never used the trade parts of it, or the char gen. The only thing of any value I found in it was the descriptions of the various polities and merchants. I had such high expectations and hopes for it back when it came out. A quick look now (I loathe even having to do that for this) and it looks like, among other faults it doesn't even say what size the cargo lots are :nonono: Or I just didn't look closely enough but I can't be bothered to.

 

[far-trader]

Oh, btw Max, I meant to say, and still think, this could be a fun idea spawning thread. Let's please continue.

And I only pointed out the cargo thing because having the correct numbers is required to make our presumptions. If we're going with the 1st edition books we get a very very different set of "facts" to work with... no power plant needed for jump drives, no computer factor requirement for jump beyond running the program, all jump fuel burned no matter how few parsecs are travelled (and that's just off the top of my head). No, I think we have to go with the 2nd edition "corrections" for this.

 

[Max]

Fine by me to use the 2nd edition, although I must admit it means I'll have to look up the change list.

Even if the number was 4 times the number I produced or 40 times it wouldn't change the fact that the smaller the population of a planet the more each person receives of cargo, at pop A the average citizen on the street's share of a ship's cargo could fit under his fingernail while a citizen of a pop 3 world needs an ATV to haul away her portion of an incoming freighter shipment.





HANS: this is a thought experiment. I am not suggesting that the rules do actually model a universe anyone would want to play in. They do model a universe, a strange and weird universe, but it is a universe.

We can derive unknown information from known information if we use the simple formula "form follows function". If we look at an animal and see that it has broad, flat teeth we can tell that the animal is a herbivore and probably eats grains since it has teeth which are of a form which is appropriate for eating grain while if it has sharp, pointed teeth it is a carnivore because it has teeth which are of a form appropriate for cutting and tearing meat. A horse which had pointy teeth would not be able to crush it forage and lion with flat teeth would not be able to chew it's meat.

I repeat, for clarity, I do not recommend that anyone play in a universe derived from the unadulterated rules of the first 3 books. It might be useful to see what the universe following the rules in the first 3 books is however, if only to see what portions are incompatible with your view of the universe. When I followed the trade rules to create the idea that the larger the population was the more self-sufficient it was I came up with an idea which ran counter to later rules (book 7, book 6, innumerable adventures) and the OTU, but it shows that the trade tables can model a universe.

Now if I wish to create a universe with no megacorps, no imperium and xenophobic hiveworlds, I have a trade model from which to start. I could use this to set up a universe in which "smugglers" are the primary merchants and base themselves on small pop worlds which rely on smugglers for survival goods they are unable to produce while sneaking luxury goods into high-pop worlds from small pop worlds in exchange for technology items which they take in various degrees of openness to mid-pop worlds to exchange for the survival goods for the small pop worlds. This is not necessarily the universe the original rules create but it is compatible and I would never have thought of it if I hadn't tried to think about why the trade tables produce more trade per capita for small pop worlds than high pop worlds.

 

[Max]

Hmm, thinking about Chargen and the universe it describes.

Obviously service is mandatory and the lives of those in service is not highly regarded. Perhaps the second is connected to the first, mandatory service as a way to weed out the unfit. Since the survival rolls rarely get easier as one continues in service there must be some sort of stigma attached to service, this should apply even without considering mandatory service.

If interstellar society had 1/36th of it's population dying every 4 years (2 meaning a failed survival roll) it would be a pretty dangerous place before we considered the effects of aging. 1/36 per 4 years is about 5 times the rate of British deaths during WWII and 1/12 (4+ survival roll) is the Soviet Union's death rate during WWII, a death rate like that would have an effect on the universe.

 

[far-trader]

Hmm, thinking about Chargen and the universe it describes.

Obviously service is mandatory...

Nope, have to disagree here, unless it's another 1st ed v 2nd ed difference.

The 6 basic career paths can't be all there is to society. Instead I've always seen them as the career paths that grant Citizenship in the Imperium myself. Sort of like the idea in R.A. Heinlein's "Starship Troopers". Most people are simply members of the Imperium and citizens of their world, they are not represented in the core careers. Of those most gain Citizenship through honest (dangerous) service to the Imperium (Scouts, Army, Marines, Navy, and Merchants) while others come by it a little more circuitously (Other, either by criminal or other influence). Citizenship, among other perks, grants the freedom to be Travellers. Most people could never afford to travel (and imtu even if they could getting travel papers arranged would be difficult or impossible).

...and the lives of those in service is not highly regarded.

On the contrary, the muster out process and the fact that it is completely voluntary (not for the Players perhaps, they need to create characters, Travellers, with skills of value in the interstellar market, so they volunteer, and if they can't cut the entrance exam they submit to the draft). You don't give thousands of credits or more in pay and/or recognition of service awards to people you don't regard highly.

Since the survival rolls rarely get easier as one continues in service there must be some sort of stigma attached to service, this should apply even without considering mandatory service.

Interesting. Not sure how you attach a stigma to hard survival. Can you elaborate?

I've always just put it down to "Space is dangerous. You just won’t believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly dangerous it is. I mean, you may think it’s a dangerous trip down the road to the chemist’s, but that’s just peanuts to space." ...to borrow and twist a line

Same thing with the aging rolls. Not all of society ages that badly. Most live quiet, peaceful, full lives well into their second century on the better worlds. To borrow the line I always apply in this case "It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage." Travellers suffer premature aging from the exposure to all kinds of harsh environments and injury and such.

 

[mike wightman]

I love threads like this that highlight how much the revision of the rules in '81 changed so much in the setting.
Nothing compared to the damage HG did to it but I digress.

I don't think the character generation rules are meant to be used for the general populace - only for the nutters who my become Travellers. Even the scout service is probably safer for most scouts who don't have that player inspired lunacy behind them.

 

[far-trader]

I love threads like this that highlight how much the revision of the rules in '81 changed so much in the setting.
Nothing compared to the damage HG did to it but I digress.

Sidebar: Agreed, and to further digress Did we (i.e. you and DonM iirc) finish that comparative study and text for Marc?

I don't think the character generation rules are meant to be used for the general populace - only for the nutters who my become Travellers. Even the scout service is probably safer for most scouts who don't have that player inspired luncay behind them.

Interesting. I'd always figured it was indicative of all those in service. Though I guess it could apply just to the PCs and perhaps other special (suitable ) NPC cases. It would paint a rather different picture of the universe. One not quite so dangerous, as long as you pal around with those types.

 

[far-trader]

Not one to approach things... methodically? this probably won't last long (but we'll see... )

LBB1 (ed 2 to be clear):

Chapter 1 - Introduction:

We find the meme intended for our olde game is to be one of a growing technological society finally reaching the stars and settling the worlds out there. And faced with long communication delays due to the nature of said star travel (peaking ahead) and presumably vast distances, i.e. an Empire or Empires and all the problems that entails for politics, diplomacy, and commerce. (The first hints of The Imperium, right there on the first page.)

There, that was easy Chapter 2 - Characters is bigger (and while touched on I need to head for bed) so, tomorrow, er later today actually

 

[aramis]

Let's see;
Army Survival 5+; 1 in 6 of those without a High School Equivalency will die.
Army Survival 3+ with Edu 6+; 1 in 36 of those with a High School Equivalency will die.
since 6+ is 26/36 of the population admitted, we get a kill rate of: (6/36 * 10/36)+(1/36 * 26/36)=60/1296+26/1296=86/1296 or about 6.2%.

Navy/Merchant survival 5+ if below averge intelligence (6/36 * 15/36)=90/1296
Navy/Merchant survival 3+ if averge intelligence or better (1/36 * 21/36)=21/1296
Navy/Merchant net kill rate = 111/1296 = about 8.6%

Other 5+ for Normal or lower intelligence (+.8σ or less) : 6/36 *26/36 = 156/1296
Other 3+ for (+.8σ or more) : 1/36 *10/36 = 10/1296
Other net kill rate: 166/1296 = about 12.8%

Marine 6+ for not tougher than averge (end 7-): 15/36 * 21/36 = 315/1296
Marine 4+ for tougher than average (end 8+): 3/36 * 15/36 = 75/1296
Net marine kill rate: 390/1296 = about 30.1%

Scouts 7+ for not very tough (End : 15/36 * 26/36 = 390/1296
Scouts 5+ for very tough (end 9+): 6/36 * 10/36 = 60/1296
Scouts net kill rate = 450/1296 = about 34.7%

Starts to sound like Vietnam...

Keep in mind that this is of 4-year enlistees.

1969 casualties in Nam: about 9528 KIA/MIA
1 Jan 1969 Troop Strength: 440,029
gives us about 2.2% per year KIA/MIA
that's about 97.8% survival per year,
which we raise to the 4th power for a per term survival: 91.4% survival
or in consistent figures: 8.6% kill rate.

Note: if we include all WIA's, as well, 55390, plus the 9414 KIA and the 112 MIA
WIA % = 12.6%
1969 Casualties % = 14.75%
term casualties % = 47.2%

Conclusions
Hm... I notice, on this, that the KIA rate for the army of the imperium looks to be congruent with that of the US Army for 1969 extrapolated out to a 4 year term.

References:
Smith, Ray, Casualties - US vs NVA/VC, accessed 27 May 2009 from http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html
Miller, Marc W., The Traveller Book, Game Designer's Workshop. p.24

 

[RKFM]

As a boy I was struck by the fact that Traveller wasn't as high-tech as I imagined a sci-fi roleplaying game would be. Looking at the equipment list, you see mostly slug throwers and blades with only two laser weapons (and Battle Dress, which seemed overly exotic compared to the weapons available).

Another impression I had from the rules was that the universe wasn't very cosmopolitan as the supplements and adventures would imply later. With this, I also saw star travel as rare and expensive. One of the first things I noticed (strange for me as a boy, since I haven't improved much as a man) was the economics of the cost of living. The equipment list has rules about long term food and lodging. A good/middle-class life is only around Cr4800 per year (let's say Cr5000 with incedentals). A starship pilot makes more than that in a month. A High Passage would be two years salary!

One last thing, since the rules were originally designed for any type of setting you wanted a lot of how the universe will turn out will be governed by how the worlds you create come out. Since you start out determining the starport first, most worlds are going to have a B or C class starport, and a tech level limited by that.

 

[far-trader]

Continuing methodically (is that a synonym for boringly ) I’m trying to look at it all fresh again with all my long built up ideas set aside and ignoring everything that came after LBB1-3. Not easy and I’m probably just fooling myself that I'm succeeding at all but it might be a fun mental exercise. Maybe I’ll even see something new. Treat all this as jumping off points for discussion, I’d like to see other interpretations and the reasons behind them too.

LBB1 (ed 2 to be clear):

Chapter 2 - Characters: (part 1)

From page one (and peaking ahead to LBB3), touching on the earlier bit about presumptions about the population in general, it’s pretty clear that character generation is not the whole of society so any presumptions made here apply only to the small subset of PCs and some NPCs with the same careers.

We can’t read too much into most of the characteristics, every game needs and uses the same basics for the most part (physical and mental attributes).

The one that sets Traveller apart and begins to define the setting is Social Standing and the Noble Titles. Right off we see that not only is it a kind of feudal society, but it’s one where the PCs have a shot at being part of the ruling class. Either by birth (Knight or Baron) or (peaking ahead a bit again) by service (as high as Duke).

Let’s look at that too, briefly. Service is already hinted at being important here, with Rank being noted as a kind of additional characteristic. Service is important and respected.

Back to Nobel Titles, note the “local world government” mention. These are local titles, not interstellar, and the character with high Social Standing may have local property and ruling power on their homeworld to go with the title. It's not clear if there is a level of governance above this uniting the worlds, or if it's more of a coalition.

Couple this with the earlier mention of long communication times and we see isolated worlds with a common feudal ruling class binding them together but with each world independent imo. So maybe not so much an Empire as a Federation. At this point anyway.

Characters usually come from a background of service (that should be capitalized imo). Four of the six careers are interstellar in scope (Navy, Marines, Scouts, and Merchants). Three are military and one is commercial. There is also a local (planetary) military career (Army) and a catch all career (Other) for the rest. Note that contrary to what some insist, Other is not just criminals. It also covers some trades and could be honest folk just working for a living. Or even (as in the case of a high Social Standing character) someone in government.

Let’s look at the career entry options. There’s enlistment (implying voluntary imo, for the character, but not the player) and the draft (which only applies if you don’t make your enlistment, still implying voluntary imo). So characters represent individuals with the drive to serve this Empire, or perhaps simply to travel to other worlds. To do this they attempt to enter a service or trade that will reward them sufficiently or earn them skills that will allow them to travel the stars.

The fact that you can be drafted into Other does not necessarily mean it is a “Service” per se. It could mean that none of the actual Services was accepting draftees at that time, so the character was left to take the best job they could find that might fit their desires.

(to be continued, if the boredom OF (not "or" as previously) methodically attacking this doesn't get to me )

 

[far-trader]

...One last thing, since the rules were originally designed for any type of setting you wanted...

Actually, as I have begun to show, and expect to expand on, there are a number of built in limitations and directions that restrict the type of setting supported by the rules. Traveller was never truly generic. There are underlying setting elements throughout LBB1-3.

It can be taken and altered to do settings that diverge from those elements, but it takes work. And in the opinion of some it is no longer Traveller at that point. But that's a "debate" for another thread...

 

[mike wightman]

Well when I ran Star Trek and Star Wars using Traveller the trade rules weren't really needed

A bit of interpretation of other rules (jump fuel - scrap) and some weapon design were about it.

 

[far-trader]

Well when I ran Star Trek and Star Wars using Traveller the trade rules weren't really needed

A bit of interpretation of other rules (jump fuel - scrap) and some weapon design were about it.

I can see Nobility (for one) fitting a Star Wars universe, but not so much Star Trek