I'd like to "talk" with you about that. Or perhaps you can direct me to a thread that discusses how HG damaged CT. (That's not a commonly mentioned belief).
The nature of the book 1-3 Universe
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I'd like to "talk" with you about that. Or perhaps you can direct me to a thread that discusses how HG damaged CT. (That's not a commonly mentioned belief).
There was also a reference that I preferred to the credit being equivalent to one person-hour of unskilled labour. The Imperial credit of the OTU would be one hour on a tech 15 world (more productivity than on a tech 3 world). Lobour costs are the sole source of inflation but indexing the value of the currency to the value of labour would go a long way towards minimizing inflation.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
How did HG damage CT?
You mean other than by introducing:
totally different ship paradigm
totally different drive TL progression
You mean other than by introducing:
totally different ship paradigm
totally different drive TL progression
Strangelove
SOC-6
Is the book 1-3 universe the same as what's presented in "The Traveller Book"?
I just recently got my CT CD from Marc and was pondering if the book was just a compilation of 1-3 or if it actually changed any of the rules/assumptions presented in the LBBs.
I just recently got my CT CD from Marc and was pondering if the book was just a compilation of 1-3 or if it actually changed any of the rules/assumptions presented in the LBBs.
How did HG damage CT?
You mean other than by introducing:
totally different ship paradigm
totally different drive TL progression
Yes, other than that.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Pretty much just a compilation. It may have expanded on the background inferred a bit. I'd say it's the LBB1-3 universe as Marc saw it
EDIT: Yeah, I could have been clearer
As aramis notes below there are additions, but the core is LBB1-3 and it's inherent universe assumptions. There's adventures, personalities, art, tables and charts added among a few other things including an introduction to Traveller.
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Not exactly; delete pages 129+ and you have essentially the same as CT '81.
Note that 129+ are setting info and adventures.
There are also a few odd changes in the text.
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But introducing a self-consistent ship paragdigm and a self-consistent drive TL progression didn't damage CT. It fixed something that was broken.
Hans
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
I don't agree that it was particularly "broken".
But I'd argue that the real problem was GDW/Marc Miller's inexplicable failure to harmonize subsequent printings/editions of CT with High Guard. As I showed in this thread, standard Book 2 ships can be replicated with reasonable fidelity in HG.
The book 2 starship design rules could have easily been re-worked to be compatible with HG. IMHO, the percentage based HG system is no more complex than drive potential table -- and less so if you limit the rules to a single TL (in my campaign it's TL11). Of course, the combat system uses drive letters for damage, so you would have had to re-do the drives table (and the drive potential table), if you want to keep that feature. But it would have taken relatively little work.
Yet for some reason the 1981 reprint of CT, the Traveller Book and Starter Traveller ignored HG completely.
Ironically, it does appear that 1981 CT small craft were created with High Guard...
You and Wil may be right. I did a quick peruse of the rules and can't put my finger on any obvious internal inconsistencies. So I'll retract my original claim. However, I will say that I still think that changing jump drive distances to being linked to tech level rather than letting TL9 produce small jump-6 vessels was a vast improvement. In my opinion, of course.
As long as you don't try to make 100T TL9 jump-6 ships, yes. I agree that the grandfather rule in HG was a colossal mistake.
I have a half-finished HG-compatible Book 2 ship design system on file (I posted it here on CotI a year or so ago). You don't even have to stick to one tech level. A single sentence is enough ("A drive has to be of the size indicated in the table AND of such-and-such a TL in order to perform jump-X").
Hans
I heard GDW had an aggressive release schedule back in the day. That might explain part of it.
Also, the incompatability problem is mainly a testament to the success of both models, not one or the other. If one (or both) of them hadn't caught on, there'd be no problem. Had you been there and been invested 30 years ago, would you feel the need to change two successful products?
(That said, Eurisko caused HG to change, didn't it?)
In retrospect, as I see it today, no, seemingly not much work*. But at the time?
HG could have extrapolated the formulae used to create Book 2's tables**, and Book 2 could have averaged or otherwise mapped its 'excess' drive levels to overall HG armor levels.
* And at the same time, potentially a huge amount of work. Just note that the design systems which came out some years later (MT, TNE, T4...) haven't unseated HG or Book 2.
** Significantly different from High Guard. Alternately, HG drives could have added a small volume constant for its drives that would make the Book 2 formulae attractive up until somewhere around 1,000 tons.
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
In the original CT rules the jump drive was big, the maneuver drive was small but did require a power plant to run it.
Along came HG and this was switched around - jump drives became small and the maneuver drive is now big.
I still have the sneaky suspicion that this was a typo in HG1 that no one spotted and was then carried into HG2.
As has been said revised CT, TTB and ST could all have used the HG paradigms but didn't.
Along came HG and this was switched around - jump drives became small and the maneuver drive is now big.
I still have the sneaky suspicion that this was a typo in HG1 that no one spotted and was then carried into HG2.
As has been said revised CT, TTB and ST could all have used the HG paradigms but didn't.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Since I used HG pretty much exclusively after I got it (1980), the answer would be "yes".
Regardless of the reasons, the two systems are incompatible and I think that GDW's failure to reconcile them was a missed opportunity.
I don't recall any changes to High Guard. However, it might well have changed GDW's rules for the TCS tournaments.
Spreadsheets did exist in 1980 -- Visicalc came out in 1979. And Visicalc could have made it very easy (it even had lookup tables!).
But even without a spreadsheet, I could revise the drive tables in a couple of hours -- I know because I did so in 1982-3. With a calculator, of course (adding machine, actually).
So it truly is one of the more inexplicable omissions to me. I'd honestly like to know the business rationale for not revising CT in 1980-81 to be consistent with HG. It wasn't typesetting -- the 1980-81 versions were completely re-typeset.
One possibility might be that HG ships were generally more expensive than their Book 2 counterpart. A book 2 Free Trader is MCr37.08; it's TL11 HG counterpart is MCr60 (discounted price). It's TL15 HG counterpart is MCr50. However, the easy fix for this is to give a deep discount for really, really, really standardized designs. 40-50% would do it, at TL15 and 11 respectively.
I'd argue that those systems have failed because they are mind-numbingly boring.
IMHO, much like Car Wars and Starfire, HG and Book 2 hit a sweet spot for many folks. Enough detail to be engaging, but not so much as to be boring. Everything from MegaTraveller on has (IMHO) failed this test...some very badly.
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TL limits jump in CT by Computer Model # and Drive size limits.
TL 9 J1-J3 (200 Td or less)
TL 10 J4 (400 Td or Less)
TL 11 J5 (400 Td or less) (J4: 400Td)
TL 12 J6 (400 Td or less) (J4: 600 Td)
TL 13 J6 (400 Td or less) (J4: 600 Td)
TL 14 J6 (600 Td or less) (J4: 800 Td)
TL 15 J6 (2000 Td or less) (J4: 3000 Td)
Honestly, the Bk2 system is slightly cumbersome... but highly consistent except for PP fuel.
Tonnage maximums for Jump by TL (TTB)
TL C _J1_ _J2_ _J3_ _J4_ _J5_ _J6_
_9 3 _800 _400 _200 –NP– –NP– –NP–
10 4 1000 _800 _400 _400 –NP– –NP–
11 5 2000 1000 _600 _400 _400 –NP–
12 6 2000 1000 _800 _600 _400 _400
13 7 3000 1000 1000 _600 _600 _400
14 7 3000 1000 1000 _800 _600 _600
15 7 5000 5000 4000 3000 2000 2000
Tonnage maximums for M/P by TL (TTB)
TL C _X1_ _X2_ _X3_ _X4_ _X5_ _X6_
_9 3 _800 _400 _200 _200 _100 _100
10 4 1000 _800 _400 _400 _200 _200
11 5 2000 1000 _600 _400 _400 _200
12 6 2000 1000 _800 _600 _400 _400
13 7 3000 1000 1000 _600 _600 _400
14 7 3000 1000 1000 _800 _600 _600
15 7 5000 5000 4000 3000 2000 2000
TL 9 J1-J3 (200 Td or less)
TL 10 J4 (400 Td or Less)
TL 11 J5 (400 Td or less) (J4: 400Td)
TL 12 J6 (400 Td or less) (J4: 600 Td)
TL 13 J6 (400 Td or less) (J4: 600 Td)
TL 14 J6 (600 Td or less) (J4: 800 Td)
TL 15 J6 (2000 Td or less) (J4: 3000 Td)
Honestly, the Bk2 system is slightly cumbersome... but highly consistent except for PP fuel.
Tonnage maximums for Jump by TL (TTB)
TL C _J1_ _J2_ _J3_ _J4_ _J5_ _J6_
_9 3 _800 _400 _200 –NP– –NP– –NP–
10 4 1000 _800 _400 _400 –NP– –NP–
11 5 2000 1000 _600 _400 _400 –NP–
12 6 2000 1000 _800 _600 _400 _400
13 7 3000 1000 1000 _600 _600 _400
14 7 3000 1000 1000 _800 _600 _600
15 7 5000 5000 4000 3000 2000 2000
Tonnage maximums for M/P by TL (TTB)
TL C _X1_ _X2_ _X3_ _X4_ _X5_ _X6_
_9 3 _800 _400 _200 _200 _100 _100
10 4 1000 _800 _400 _400 _200 _200
11 5 2000 1000 _600 _400 _400 _200
12 6 2000 1000 _800 _600 _400 _400
13 7 3000 1000 1000 _600 _600 _400
14 7 3000 1000 1000 _800 _600 _600
15 7 5000 5000 4000 3000 2000 2000
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I certainly would have. But then, you knew that, didn't you?
As I can't be bothered to find the previous post where I posted this, I'll just repost it. It doesn't take up that much bandwidth:
Code:
HG-compatible Book 2 type ship construction rules.
Note: Only changes to original rules listed.
Ship Design and Construction
============================
REQUIRED STARSHIP COMPONENTS
[First three paragraphs unchanged].
Hulls vary in their requirements for drive and power plant based on tonnage.
Any specific drive will be less efficient as the tonnage it must drive
increases. The drive potential tables lists up to 24 standard drive types,
identified by the letters A through Z (omitting I and O to avoid confusion
with the numerals 1 and 0). Also listed are various tonnage levels for hulls;
any tonnage which exceeds a listed level should be read as the next higher
level. Correlating hull size with drive letter indicates drive potential.
For maneuver drives, this potential is the Gs of acceleration available. For
jump drives, the potential is the jump number (Jn) or jump range in parsecs.
For power plants, it is power plant rating (Pn). For instance, a 200-ton hull
equipped with maneuver drive-B can produce 1-G acceleration; an 800-ton hull
equipped with jump drive-K can produce jump-2.
Shipyards on high-population worlds have a number of standard designs for
hulls and components available. Such standard designs can be produced
faster and at lower costs than custom designs.
Jump drive, maneuver drive and power plant tables.
--------------------------------------------------
Jump Maneuver Power
Drive Drive Plant
Mass MCr Mass MCr Mass MCr
A 2 8 2 1 3 9
B 3 12 4 2 6 18
C 4 16 5 2.5 9 27
D 6 24 8 4 12 36
E 8 32 10 5 18 54
F 12 48 12 6 24 72
G 16 64 16 8 30 90
H 18 72 20 10 36 108
J 20 80 30 15 48 144
K 24 96 32 16 54 162
L 30 120 40 20 60 180
M 32 128 48 24 72 216
N 40 160 50 25 90 270
P 60 240 60 30 120 360
Q 80 320 64 32 150 450
R 90 360 80 40 180 540
S 100 400 100 50 240 720
T 120 480 150 75 270 810
U 150 600 160 80 300 900
V 160 640 200 100 360 1080
W 200 800 240 120 450 1350
X - - 250 125 - -
Y - - 320 160 - -
Z - - 400 200 - -
The following restrictions apply based on TL: At TL 9 and 10, only jump-1
drives may be built; at TL 11, only jump-1 and jump-2 drives may be built;
at TL 12, only jump-1 through jump-3 may be built; at TL 13, only jump-1
through jump-4 may be built; at TL 14, only jump-1 through jump-5 may be
built; at TL 15, jump-1 through jump-6 may be built.
At TL 13 and 14, power plant tonnage and cost are reduced by one third; at
TL 15, they're reduced by another third (E.g. a power plant-A masses 2 tons
and costs MCr6 at TL 13 and 14; it masses 1 T and costs MCr3 at TL 15).
Jump Drive potential
Hull A B C D E F G H J K L M N P Q R S T U V W
tons
100 1 2 3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
200 - - 1 2 3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
400 - - - - 1 2 3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
600 - - - - - 1 1 2 2 3 - - - - - - - - - - -
800 - - - - - - 1 1 1 2 2 3 - - - - - - - - -
1000 - - - - - - - - 1 1 2 2 3 - - - - - - - -
2000 - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 2 3 - - - - - -
3000 - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 2 2 3 - - -
4000 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 2 2 3 -
5000 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 2 2 3
Note: A jump drive of high potential installed in a big hull will perform at
the indicated lower level. The reverse is not true. A jump-1 drive installed
in a smaller ship will still only perform jump-1.
Maneuver Drive potential
Hull A B C D E F G H J K L M N P Q R S T U V W X Y Z
tons
100 1 1 2 3 3 4 5 6 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
200 - 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 6 - - - - - - - - - - - -
400 - - - 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 - - - - - - - -
600 - - - - - 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 4 5 6 - - - - - -
800 - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 4 6 - - - - - -
1000 - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 5 5 5 6 - - -
2000 - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 6
3000 - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 3 4
4000 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3
5000 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 1 2 2 3
Note that some drives are bigger than needed to produce the indicated effect.
If you want a drive that fits perfectly, you may have to have it custom-made.
Power Plant potential
Hull A B C D E F G H J K L M N P Q R S T U V W
tons
100 1 2 3 4 6 8 10 12 16 18 20 - - - - - - - - - -
200 - 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 12 15 20 - - - - - - -
400 - - - 1 1 2 2 3 4 4 5 6 7 10 12 15 20 - - - -
600 - - - - 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 5 6 8 10 13 15 16 20 -
800 - - - - - 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3 5 6 7 10 11 12 15 18
1000 - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 2 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 10 12 15
2000 - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 2 2 3 4 4 5 6 7
3000 - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 5
4000 - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 3
5000 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1 1 1 1 2 2 3
The power plant must be able to produce an effect at least equal to the jump
drive or the maneuver drive, whichever is the highest, e.g. a ship with 2G
and jump-1 needs a power plant with an effect of 2 or more, and so does a
ship with 1G and jump-2.
If you want to be able to use the maneuver drive and energy weapons at the
same time, the power plant must have a higher effect than the maneuver drive
level. (For every level the power plant exceeds the maneuver drive, you get
power points equivalent to the ship's tonnage in hundreds, e.g. a 400 T ship
gets 4 excess power points for every extra level).
Note that some plants are bigger than needed to produce the indicated effect.
If you want a plant that fits perfectly, you may have to have it custom-made.Incidentally, if anyone wants to finish the job, feel free to use any and all parts of this that you want to.
Hans
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Not really
20tons for Jump Drive C, 10tons for Power Plant C, 60tons for power Plant fuel and that's 90tons already without the bridge, computer, and life support for the crew.
Now if you allow scratching back the power plant fuel to 30tons for two weeks and drop tanks for the jump fuel it's still pretty tight fitting the bridge, computer, and life support into 40tons. Did you want a maneuver drive?
Now 1st ed B2 is doable since you can eliminate the power plant from the equation but you still need drop tanks.
So, realistically the only C Drive you'll put in a 100ton hull is Maneuver for a 6G racer with one stateroom and 1ton left over for whatever.
I think that was aramis' point. Sure the table says 6 but it cannae be done captain. Not for jump anyway.
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Very well (Though it's 20T for jump drive C). How about 15 T for jump drive B, 7 T for power plant B, and 40T jump fuel, total 62T, leaving 38 T for bridge, maneuver drive, etc.? That gives you jump-4 at TL 9. Or 30 T for jump drive E, 16 T for Power plant E, plus 100T jump fuel, total 146T, leaving 54 T out of a 200T hull, giving you jump-5 at TL 10? And you certainly do get jump-6 at TL 12.Not really
30tons for Jump Drive C, 10tons for Power Plant C, 60tons for power Plant fuel and that's 100tons already without the bridge, computer, and life support for the crew.
Hans
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