MGT Only: The problem with Mongoose Traveller?

[GypsyComet]

And even so, I guess most Imperial people will be more evolutioned from Vilani tan from Solomani, as the Vilani had already a quite more large population base, having been in the stars for about 2000 years when the Terrans began its move.

The Vilani had been in space for over 7000 years by the time the Terrans developed Jump Drive, practicing social and genetic Darwinism over both their two early competitors (the Geonee and Suerrat) and subsequently discovered Minor Races for at least half of that time. Race Politics have run rampant throughout the setting's history.

The farthest travelling Terran ethnicities documented are the Turks, who were behind the Scorpion Company that poured Terran population into the coreward reaches of the Rule of Man (what is now Julian space) and were a significant part of the Terran contact with the pre-spaceflight Darrians. The Sword Worlds with their Scandinavian origins are next. Diaspora Sector is supposed to be loaded with single-source colonies planted during the Nth IW, and the Chinese apparently "own" a large chunk of Solomani space spinward of Terra.

Many of the other Terran ethnicities that went to space during the Interstellar Wars and the Rule of Man would have just vanished into the melting pot of the Vilani population base. It's what the Vilani do, and they have had three thousand years to do it to the Terran Diaspora.

Terra itself will still be diverse, despite likely efforts by the budding Solomani movement to use certain groups for colonization.

 

[rancke]

Many of the other Terran ethnicities that went to space during the Interstellar Wars and the Rule of Man would have just vanished into the melting pot of the Vilani population base. It's what the Vilani do, and they have had three thousand years to do it to the Terran Diaspora.

Actually, the Vilani either died in droves due to Solomani diseases (the [url="http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Plague_of_Duskir]"what everybody knows"[/url] version) or were outbred by Solomani who had more children earlier (the "what really went on" explanation favored by those of us who don't believe in the "what everybody knows" version (It may also have made it into canon, although I won't swear to it -- I remember discussing it in connection with the Rim of Fire playtest)).

The end result is clear, however; the Solomani came to dominate the populations of most worlds not actually located in the Vilani region around Vland (Not counting worlds really far away from the Imperium, like the Zhodani and the Vlazdumecta worlds).

Though not all cultural Solomani in the Classic Era are genetically Solomani. Some Vilani did merge into the Solomani populations by adopting Solomani culture.

Also:

"The Imperial Race​

In the more than 10,000 years since the Vilani first encountered another Human race, considerable interbreeding has occurred and many Humans can no longer be said to belong to any particular subspecies of Homo sapiens. Some Imperial citizens have taken to identifying with their mixed-ancestry status, considering themselves to be of the "Imperial" race.

Some laymen even use the subspecies name Homo sapiens imperialis. This is, of course, a fallacy, since the Imperium incorporates every concievable mix of human races, from purebreds of every known human race to crossbreeds that are impossible to classify. Indeed, if any "race" can be said to be typically Imperial, it is the vast population of Humans with indeterminate (but thoroghly mixed) ancestry."

[GT:Humaniti, p. 6]​

Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

The end result is clear, however; the Solomani came to dominate the populations of most worlds not actually located in the Vilani region around Vland (Not counting worlds really far away from the Imperium, like the Zhodani and the Vlazdumecta worlds).

Vilani Empire = Rome, during its last days.

Solomani = The Barbarians At The Gate

 

[GypsyComet]

Actually, the Vilani either died in droves due to Solomani diseases (the [url="http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Plague_of_Duskir]"what everybody knows"[/url] version) or were outbred by Solomani who had more children earlier (the "what really went on" explanation favored by those of us who don't believe in the "what everybody knows" version (It may also have made it into canon, although I won't swear to it -- I remember discussing it in connection with the Rim of Fire playtest)).

Hans

The Plague of Duskir is in the Unquotable Canon of DGP, from TD10, but doesn't have an actual published fatality rate that I recall. "Ravaged" is rather vague.

Binary "solutions" are a non-starter. These are humans we are talking about, and they are all different.

A combination of faster breeding and plague could give the Solomani localized advantages, but unless the Vilani were wiped off of a planet interbreeding would have taken place pretty quickly, and even with early Solomani conquests (in which Terran medical assistance would have been more likely) the Vilani were still a large empire worth of people to Terra's handful. If the plagues wiped out 99.9% of the Vilani I think they would be described differently.

 

[rancke]

A combination of faster breeding and plague could give the Solomani localized advantages, but unless the Vilani were wiped off of a planet interbreeding would have taken place pretty quickly, and even with early Solomani conquests (in which Terran medical assistance would have been more likely) the Vilani were still a large empire worth of people to Terra's handful. If the plagues wiped out 99.9% of the Vilani I think they would be described differently.

Jon Zeigler and we playtesters thought the same. Which is why the alternative of the different reproductive strategies was proposed. The end result is fixed: Solomani dominating many worlds that were originally settled by Vilani. As for early interbreeding, there's no information about that, AFAIK. If you assume that it took place in significant numbers, you have to come up with another explanation for why the Solomani came to dominate. What you don't get to do (if you want to stay within spitting distance of the official version) is to say that the Vilani dominates those worlds by the Classic Era.

Even with interbreeding, one could posit that the pure Solomani still had an advantage. Say, for example, that Vilani mostly had a new generation every 50 years, mixed couples tended to have a new generation every 40 years, and Solomani mostly had a new generation every 30 years. (Numbers grabbed out of thin air; I haven't checked how they'd work out).

Be that as it may, the end result is, as I said, clear; the Solomani came to dominate the populations of most worlds not actually located in the Vilani region around Vland.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Be that as it may, the end result is, as I said, clear; the Solomani came to dominate the populations of most worlds not actually located in the Vilani region around Vland.

As I remember, the Solomani dominance was more cultural (as the victorious, and so dominant culture) than purely racial, with many Vilani noble families even changing their families names to seem more Solomani, and as Golden Age times it is quite difficult to distingish them, most imperials being just mixted of both or other human races.

In any case, as already said here, the vastly superior numbers of the Vilani would, IMHO, preclude the Solomani racial dominance,

 

[GypsyComet]

It is worth noting that you are talking about the end of the Imperium that Traveller has spent very little time in during *any* edition. Sector listings with two pages of library data are about as far as official print has ever gotten aside from the meandering travels of the DGP railroad and the late GDW folio on Diaspora. Little to no attention means little to no art.

Another point. The "dominance" that would shape Imperial politics is not defined as genetic vs social, and the DGP Vilani text states that worlds around Vland "returned to following Vilani ways" during the Long Night.

I note that the DGP Vilani book also says nothing about the generational interval, only that caste is determined at 18.

 

[rancke]

In any case, as already said here, the vastly superior numbers of the Vilani would, IMHO, preclude the Solomani racial dominance,

Whereas my opinion is that the advantage having five generations every time the other group has three would give to a population group would ensure Solomani dominance even without assuming different numbers of children per generations.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I note that the DGP Vilani book also says nothing about the generational interval, only that caste is determined at 18.

If there had been any mention of generational intervals or average number of children per generation, I wouldn't have said that it was an explanation made up to explain the dominance of Solomani in the Imperium. I would just have stated it as a fact (and given a reference if challenged).

I note that nowhere does it say that the generational intervals and average number of children per generation are the same for Vilani and Solomani.

However, I note that according to the table on p. 26 of V&V, an ostensibly Vilani character has a 30/36 chance of being of mostly non-Vilani ancestry if his homeworld is not inside the Vilani Cultural Region (and doesn't have government type 1 or 9). I admit that the implications of the table are pretty unbelievable as far as the details goes, but I believe it can at least be taken as evidence that Vilani ancestry is not exactly prevalent outside the Vilani Cultural Region.


Hans

 

[aramis]

As I remember, the Solomani dominance was more cultural (as the victorious, and so dominant culture) than purely racial, with many Vilani noble families even changing their families names to seem more Solomani, and as Golden Age times it is quite difficult to distingish them, most imperials being just mixted of both or other human races.

In any case, as already said here, the vastly superior numbers of the Vilani would, IMHO, preclude the Solomani racial dominance,

all sources I've seen outside GT strongly imply that the dominance was purely cultural outside the Solomani Sphere. The fall of the Ziru Sirka brought about the ROM and terran lieutenants often bing world governors for lack of anyone better qualified. ISTR that being mentioned in T4, but I'm not looking it up at the moment. The Sword Worlders are a case of bypassing Vilani space. So, Solomani might be way overrepresented in the nobility of many worlds, but probably aren't even a plurality on most worlds.

It's also worth noting that in CT materials, the Marches aren't "settled" by any of the 3 Imperiums until the middle period of the 3I. Supp 8 notes that the nobility is mostly Solomani extraction (p 36), all the early emperors were (which means Zhunastu is some form of Terran surname), and the middle classes became mixed. In most societies, that means about the upper 2/5 of the population are mixed or solomani. (The American wide middle class is an anomaly; in the US, the same breakdown would be probably 3/5, rather than 2/5).

It sounds like GT:H is yet another divergence; taking and

 

[McPerth]

Whereas my opinion is that the advantage having five generations every time the other group has three would give to a population group would ensure Solomani dominance even without assuming different numbers of children per generations.

While I understand your point about shorter generations by Solomani in respect to Vilani, I disagree in other points:

- The Vilani noble titles were inherited by the third child (as told in V&V, page 16). IMHO, this hints at least three chidlren were expected by couple...

- The solomani that left Earth in the occupation of the Vilani Empire were few, and if they occupied all of it, I guess they interbred son or fell under endogamy. Being the dominant class, I guess they will not lack offers to interbreding. This, IMHO, would lead to mixed etnics quite son and to more close generations for everyone.

 

[rancke]

- The Vilani noble titles were inherited by the third child (as told in V&V, page 16). IMHO, this hints at least three chidlren were expected by couple...

What nobles do and what non-nobles do is not necessarily the same.

- The solomani that left Earth in the occupation of the Vilani Empire were few...

How do you know how many Solomani left Earth during the Rule of Man? I believe Diaspora was named for a reason.

...and if they occupied all of it, I guess they interbred soon or fell under endogamy. Being the dominant class, I guess they will not lack offers to interbreding. This, IMHO, would lead to mixed ethnics quite soon and to more close generations for everyone.

Which either led to the indeterminate mix mentioned before or to the Solomani absorbing the Vilani rather than the other way around.


Hans

 

[rancke]

All sources I've seen outside GT strongly imply that the dominance was purely cultural outside the Solomani Sphere.

Oh good, you actually know of some canonical references. What sources are you talking about? Can you quote the ones that disprove the theories I've propounded?

The fall of the Ziru Sirka brought about the ROM and terran lieutenants often bing world governors for lack of anyone better qualified. ISTR that being mentioned in T4, but I'm not looking it up at the moment.

I know that reference. That strongly implies that for the first few years, the Federation Navy was stretched thin. In no way does it imply that the Navy stayed stretched thin, much less say anything about civilian settlement patterns.

The Sword Worlders are a case of bypassing Vilani space. So, Solomani might be way overrepresented in the nobility of many worlds, but probably aren't even a plurality on most worlds.

I agree that the nobility is not a good mirror of the general population.

It's also worth noting that in CT materials, the Marches aren't "settled" by any of the 3 Imperiums until the middle period of the 3I.

People from the Imperium start moving into the the Marches in 60. I think many of them were trying to get away from the Imperium, but they are still of Imperial extraction. The Imperium moves into the Marches in earnest from 200-400.

Supp 8 notes that the nobility is mostly Solomani extraction (p 36), all the early emperors were (which means Zhunastu is some form of Terran surname), and the middle classes became mixed.

Where does LDAM say anything about the middle classes?

In most societies, that means about the upper 2/5 of the population are mixed or solomani. (The American wide middle class is an anomaly; in the US, the same breakdown would be probably 3/5, rather than 2/5).

And where do you get your information about the norms for tech level 9+ societies?

It sounds like GT:H is yet another divergence;

GT:H is further development of very scanty evidence, rather. Which certainly would rule out some possibilities that were possible with the scanty evidence, but that's the nature of such development and not divergence.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Where does LDAM say anything about the middle classes?

Immediately following the prior reference. P 36.

It's in the essay on the Solomani, at the end of the volume.

 

[rancke]

Immediately following the prior reference. P 36.

It's in the essay on the Solomani, at the end of the volume.

Thank you.

Well, that passage seems to contradict the claim that genetic Vilani would have remained dominant on Imperial worlds despite Solomani immigrants. It claims that in the middle classes the two races are practically impossible to distinguish (in other words, GT:H's 'Imperial "race"').

The passage has also been contradicted by V&V, which claims that Vilani are predominant in the region around Vland. Yet this passage claims that the only exception are some worlds in the Solomani Rim where "many planetary populations have remained overwhelmingly Solomani in character throughout" (in other words, they didn't have many Vilani to begin with and never got them). The populations of orgininally Vilani worlds like Nushku and Dingir and Shululsish have apparently been turned into the indistinguishable mish-mashes.

The passage further claims that you need genealogical information to make meaningful distinction between Solomani and Vilani whereas IIRC V&V claimed that genetic analysis could distinguish some Vilani genes from some Solomani genes.


Hans

 

[aramis]

V&V claims you can just count the teeth.

Note that some populations on earth have different numbers of teeth - 32 is normal, but certain phenotypic subpopulations have as much as 30% having only 28 (Japanese - the 3rd molar fails to form), or as many as 10% having 33-36 (certain negroid phenotype tribes have high rates of supernumerary teeth). (1996, Hashirn Yaacob, BDS, MSC, Racial characteristics of human teeth with special emphasis on the Mongoloid dentition)

I've read of one tribe in africa where nearly 10% have second canines bilaterally; several others have 3rd premolars. (Normal is, per quadrant, 2 incisors, 1 canine, 2 premolars, and 3 molars, with the third molar being the "wisdom tooth.")

I've read of populations of 2.1.2.2, 2.2.2.3, 2.1.3.3, and 2.1.2.4 I.C.P.M pattern. I've known a few individuals with 3.1.2.3 in all quadrants - 3 generations of matrilineal descent, and have been told that the spouse of the first generation was also possessed of extra incisors; these extra incisors were not in the arch, but formed a partial second arch.... outside the normal arch.

(Yeah, I've done some odd reading...)

So, while odd dentition could be indicative, it's not a slam dunk, but definitely, certain formations would be telling of Vilani or Solomani ancestry - both of which likely happened within the "last" 300,000 years or so.

As for speciation... the last "new" textbook I saw on the matter noted that speciation doesn't require inability to hybridize and produce viable hybrids; it requires that the species both breed true, be distinct, and not routinely interbreed. (This was referred to as the "Wolf-Dog issue.) So, since Neanderthal was, until threatened heavily, geographically isolated and genetically distinct, bred true, and phenotypically distinct, a separate species, but that the species was absorbed back into the parent species by viable hybridization. Likewise, Huskies and Wolves are almost indistinguishable - most Alaskan huskies have at least 1 parent within 4 generations who was a wolf; both can interbreed with any other dog (barring inability to copulate and/or carry to term due to size difference), and a breed by definition breeds true. The allowance for behavioral or geographic isolation to be speciation allows Canis Lupus to be a separate species from Canis Familiaris even tho' genetically, they are essentially one species. The behavior-affecting mutation that results in domesticatableness breeds true, is absent in the grey wolf, and is rare in foxes and wild wolves, but is easily selected for. (See also the silver fox domestication experiments in Russia.) The rare sports with the mutation are the most likely to interbreed with C. Familiaris.

Note that the Liger/Tigion issue also found that the two are genetically not incapable of viable hybrids (tigions; ligers are apparently sterile).

 

[simonh]

As far as the art goes, I have noticed how human = Caucasian.

I have always felt that the artwork in Traveller (and most other rpgs) are incredibly racist.

"Breaking news. White dude draws pictures of white dudes. Prosecutors are preparing their case, criminal charges likely."

Seriously. If that's your standard for racism, if you ever come face to face with some real racism, god help you.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Timerover51]

No, I didn't "make your point". Most EVERY culture on the face of this Earth represents what and who are in their immediate locality.

Western Europeans depicted mostly Western Europeans as did Mayans and Aztecs their own, Chinese depicted Chinese, Japanese other Japanese, Africans other Africans...etc, etc, etc... So, who ISN'T a racist by your reckoning?

As a lot of the artwork is black and white line drawings, how do you do the facial features of someone with a dark skin coloring? I cannot imagine that it would be easy.

 

[rancke]

V&V claims you can just count the teeth.

There are probably minor human races with the same number of teeth as respectively Solomani and Vilani, not to mention the variations among Homo sapiens sapiens that you list, so that doesn't sound like an adequate test. However, IIRC it also mentions genetic distinctions.

As for speciation... the last "new" textbook I saw on the matter noted that speciation doesn't require inability to hybridize and produce viable hybrids; it requires that the species both breed true, be distinct, and not routinely interbreed. (This was referred to as the "Wolf-Dog issue.)

One textbook does not a scientific truth make. As a complete layman, that notion sounds like utter tosh to me; probably the result of some scientists trying desperately to avoid a logical conclusion that would ruin some pet theories of theirs. And it seems that Imperial scientists agree with me. [Humaniti, p. 6]

That said, the article mentions that there are plenty of disputes of just that kind. "The result is a never-ending controversy, with scientists unable to agree on the number and identity of Human and hominid races."

So, since Neanderthal was, until threatened heavily, geographically isolated and genetically distinct, bred true, and phenotypically distinct, a separate species, but that the species was absorbed back into the parent species by viable hybridization.

So they were a separate species until they met up with anatomically modern Homo sapiens when they magically turned into the same species and began interbreeding? What absolute nonsens.

Likewise, Huskies and Wolves are almost indistinguishable - most Alaskan huskies have at least 1 parent within 4 generations who was a wolf; both can interbreed with any other dog (barring inability to copulate and/or carry to term due to size difference), and a breed by definition breeds true. The allowance for behavioral or geographic isolation to be speciation allows Canis Lupus to be a separate species from Canis Familiaris even tho' genetically, they are essentially one species.

And the fact that they had been categorized as separate species for a long time made scientists specializing in wolves come up with this nonsense in order to "protect" their conventions.

Note that the Liger/Tigion issue also found that the two are genetically not incapable of viable hybrids (tigions; ligers are apparently sterile).

(It's 'tigon' not 'tigion'.)

Viable offspring is not enough to mark two populations as the same species. That's why the taxonomic name of mules is Equus asinus x Equus caballus . You need fertile offspring, and even that isn't enough; you need fertile offspring that breeds true.


Hans

 

[Poppyseed45]

"Breaking news. White dude draws pictures of white dudes. Prosecutors are preparing their case, criminal charges likely."

Seriously. If that's your standard for racism, if you ever come face to face with some real racism, god help you.

Simon Hibbs

But that is a valid identifier of racism, or at least, of racial bias. It's akin to casting for TV and movies; if the character we're obviously supposed to identify with are always white, despite the rest of the show depicting, say, America (which is a multi-ethnic and multi-racial society in which 31% of its inhabitants are not "white") then it holds that, if we almost never see other groups of people as protagonists, major characters and the like, then it seems likely that there is racial bias at work, and possibly racism.

Artists, as far as I know, work based on commission, no? So, whoever the art director is for Traveller at Mongoose (and whoever they were for previous Traveller versions) doesn't seem to think that dark skinned people exist in the future. Or people of any other group than "white."

I should note, there are a few folks in the Scoundrels book that I think are meant to be non-white. So kudos for that. Progress I guess.