MGT Only: The problem with Mongoose Traveller?

[simonh]

But that is a valid identifier of racism, or at least, of racial bias. It's akin to casting for TV and movies; ...

There's a world of difference between having a familiarity bias (writing about and drawing what you know and are familiar with), which afflicts every human being on this planet, and being a racist.

In any case, in post #44 Aramis makes a pretty decent case that the fundamental premise of this pernicious and grossly insulting accusation is completely baseless.

I'm sure any apology will be welcomed with magnanimity and grace.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Vladika]

...Artists, as far as I know, work based on commission, no?

Artists produce and hope to sell.

So, whoever the art director is for Traveller at Mongoose (and whoever they were for previous Traveller versions) doesn't seem to think that dark skinned people exist in the future. Or people of any other group than "white."

This was commissioned but I doubt anyone thought about it one way or another. Most early artwork was amateurish and people did what they knew how to do and were familiar with.

I should note, there are a few folks in the Scoundrels book that I think are meant to be non-white. So kudos for that. Progress I guess.

Now THAT might actually show some racism... Scoundrels indeed!:rofl:

I, and I doubt most people on CotI, have any idea what color or race anyone is. Truly a colorblind environment.

We could take a poll though. I'll be willing to hazard a guess though that the results would "prove" CotI to be biased, if not "racist" in it's membership makeup. So why bother? Let's just stay "blind" and enjoy each others company!

 

[McPerth]

I should note, there are a few folks in the Scoundrels book that I think are meant to be non-white. So kudos for that. Progress I guess.

Now THAT might actually show some racism... Scoundrels indeed!:rofl:

I agree with Vladika here. If the good guys are shown as caucasian and the scoundrels as other etnic groups, here I couls dee more racism tan if all of them are shown as caucasian or all of them as mixted races.

In any case, see that I guess a fair percentage (I've not run the numbers) of Imperial people live in closed environments, as there is no realtion about the habitability of the planets and population, so I guess many people does not see often sunlight, and when so, not always from a sun lie ours, so taning will be rare (unless UVA induced), and the skin color will tend to be mainly pale (or whatever the local sun will make it, I'm not sure about the effects this could have).

And this will be even more for starship crews and travellers (and most of the pictures represent them), as they expend most of thoeir time in trully closed environments (and a fair amount of it in jumpspace, where there's no sun at all). So, reagrdless of their genetics, I guess most skin color in Imperium (and probably also among non imperial humans) will not be dark, as, having few sunlight, it would difficult the synthesizing of D vitamin.

Of course this will not affect othre racial features, but (again my guessing) those will tend to merge as people interbreed.

 

[atpollard]

In any case, in post #44 Aramis makes a pretty decent case that the fundamental premise of this pernicious and grossly insulting accusation is completely baseless.

QFT.
Go ahead, follow the link, get a copy of TTB and check it out.

Link to post #44:

And, in TTB, there are several images that are NOT classic caucasian looks.

 

[atpollard]

Back on topic (for me, y'all can talk about whatever you want) ...


The REAL problem that I have with Mongoose Traveller is two fold:

1. Too few people playing it in my area for me to get into a regular game.

2. Too many hours at work and helping my daughter with her third grade science fair project to allow me to get to a local Mongoose Traveller game regularly even if I found one.

That's about the only real 'Problems' that I see.

Beyond that, the areas in Mongoose Traveller where I would be tempted to house rule, are no more of a problem than looking up the weapon-armor matrix in Classic Traveller was a problem ... minor annoyances at worst.

YMMV (just don't fight with sticks, or someone will poke an eye out.)

 

[Easterner9504]

Back on topic (for me, y'all can talk about whatever you want) ...


The REAL problem that I have with Mongoose Traveller is two fold:

1. Too few people playing it in my area for me to get into a regular game.

2. Too many hours at work and helping my daughter with her third grade science fair project to allow me to get to a local Mongoose Traveller game regularly even if I found one.

That's about the only real 'Problems' that I see.

That's why they have RPoL!

http://rpol.net/

 

[HG_B]

V&V claims you can just count the teeth.

Note that some populations on earth have different numbers of teeth - 32 is normal, but certain phenotypic subpopulations have as much as 30% having only 28 (Japanese - the 3rd molar fails to form), or as many as 10% having 33-36 (certain negroid phenotype tribes have high rates of supernumerary teeth). (1996, Hashirn Yaacob, BDS, MSC, Racial characteristics of human teeth with special emphasis on the Mongoloid dentition)

Interesting. Also recent data about humans breeding with Homo neanderthalensis. At least Asians & Europeans are of this mixed species. Many on Earth are not. http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetics.org/genewatch/GeneWatchPage.aspx?pageId=267

 

[rancke]

Interesting. Also recent data about humans breeding with Homo neanderthalensis. At least Asians & Europeans are of this mixed species. Many on Earth are not. http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetics.org/genewatch/GeneWatchPage.aspx?pageId=267

How can you identify a gene as a Neanderthal gene? What distinguishes Neanderthal genes from other human genes?


Hans

 

[HG_B]

How can you identify a gene as a Neanderthal gene? What distinguishes Neanderthal genes from other human genes?


Hans

Read the scientific papers written by the geneticists who carried out the studies. You can Google it.

 

[rancke]

Read the scientific papers written by the geneticists who carried out the studies. You can Google it.

If you don't know, just say so.

(Alternatively, if you know but don't want to go to the bother of telling me, that's all right too).


Hans

 

[HG_B]

If you don't know, just say so.

I don't recall exactly what subject they pulled nuclear & mtDNA from. I read it over a year ago.

If you lack basic data on genetic testing. Just say so.

 

[rancke]

If you lack basic data on genetic testing. Just say so.

I thought that was implicit from my question.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

I thought that was implicit from my question.


Hans

No. It was so basic that I didn't get it at first. We are different species so once they had access to both sets it was relatively easy to track through the existing population of current day Earth, who had ancestors that were Neanderthals and who didn't.

 

[rancke]

No. It was so basic that I didn't get it at first. We are different species so once they had access to both sets it was relatively easy to track through the existing population of current day Earth, who had ancestors that were Neanderthals and who didn't.

So back to my question: How did they get access to the Neanderthal gene set?


Hans

 

[pendragonman]

So back to my question: How did they get access to the Neanderthal gene set?


Hans

mDNA from a Neanderthal skeleton. Mitochondrial DNA lasts practically forever.

On the gene sequencing end, not sure what is the obvious difference in a particular gene that differentiates Neanderthal from Sapiens.

 

[rancke]

mDNA from a Neanderthal skeleton. Mitochondrial DNA lasts practically forever.

I see.

On the gene sequencing end, not sure what is the obvious difference in a particular gene that differentiates Neanderthal from Sapiens.

I still don't see what possible argument there is to claim that someone who could and did interbreed with Homo sapiens sapiens and produce fertile offspring is not Homo sapiens <something> himself. Even the notion that being separate so that they happen not to interbreed ever makes them separate species[*] doesn't apply here, since the evidence shows that they did meet and did interbreed.

[*] Which IMO is beyond silly.​

Hans

 

[Vladika]

Even the notion that being separate so that they happen not to interbreed ever makes them separate species[*] doesn't apply here, since the evidence shows that they did meet and did interbreed.

[*] Which IMO is beyond silly.​

Hans

Kind of like saying Australians and English automatically became separate spices after being transported? Inability to copulate isn't the same as inability to breed.

 

[atpollard]

Kind of like saying Australians and English automatically became separate spices after being transported? Inability to copulate isn't the same as inability to breed.

But long term, drinking what is called beer in England, and what is called beer in Australia could lead to morphological adaptations that would cause the species to diverge.

 

[Poppyseed45]

There's a world of difference between having a familiarity bias (writing about and drawing what you know and are familiar with), which afflicts every human being on this planet, and being a racist.

In any case, in post #44 Aramis makes a pretty decent case that the fundamental premise of this pernicious and grossly insulting accusation is completely baseless.

I'm sure any apology will be welcomed with magnanimity and grace.

Simon Hibbs

But it DOESN'T. Aramis's post only means that one book, out of an incredible number of books, has what he thinks are non-white folks drawn in it. Now, for The Traveller Book, I would guess he would be correct. How about for the others? How about, specifically, the MGT line? I've got 5 books for MGT on my shelf (Core, Scoundrels, 760 Patrons 1st edition, Mercenary and High Guard) and in absolutely none of them, except Scoundrels, is there anyone drawn there that, by features, you would call "non-white?"

You can't honestly tell me the books are full of such. And it being the far future, you're essentially saying that, several thousand years from now, darker skinned and featured people never made it off Earth? Or, that if we follow the Solomani theory of many human types, that NONE of those types came out dark skinned? At all? No genetic variance in all that time? How about obviously "Asian" people? Or so called mixed? No? Nothing.

So, I do see that as a problem with a modern sci-fi game that doesn't show at least the variety of people we see on our own world (but makes sure to show the aliens; essentially, the galaxy is full of "whites" and "non-humans"; but no other humans, even though we know they exist).

Classic I can forgive; it had virtually no art anyway. But once the Traveller lines hit the 90s, and started making sure to have lots of art, then, why? Other than the usual "but that's what the artists are familiar with." What, they all live in little enclave bubbles, never seeing human beings that don't look exactly like them? I don't think that even possible for modern Britain, is it? Unless Mongoose is based in some tiny village somewhere, and all the artists live in that village. Otherwise, surely, we can see the occasional other person, no? Like, 1 in every 20 pictures or something? Anything?

 

[rancke]

Other than the usual "but that's what the artists are familiar with." What, they all live in little enclave bubbles, never seeing human beings that don't look exactly like them?

At one point, I realized that most of my NPCs had Terran names and most of those names were English and Scandinavian. Selection bias is perfectly natural and is not racism. At worst, it is thoughtlessness.

Racism implies treating someone badly based on his race. I really don't think any living being suffers unduely because his race isn't getting equal time in Traveller illustrations. Let's keep that word for serious matters and not water it down by flinging it around for all sorts of trivial reasons.


Hans