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The real ACR

Perhaps I could say it better. Hmm... By the end, Roma _wasn't_ equipping most of its troops beyond sword, shield and maybe helmet. The U.S. hasn't changed its equipment much, but it is still equipping its troops. As far as I'm concerned, the U.S. isn't paying its troops as well as it should - though infinitely better than Roma did at the end. My main point is that on the average, the common soldier of both governments wasn't trained nearly enough - even with the quality NCOs and officers. (Though I've made this clear, and maybe I don't have all the info.)
Arthur Ferrell wrote _The Fall of the Roman Empire: the Military Explanation_, my copy of which was purchased at Barnes and Noble Booksellers. I wouldn't know why amazon.com has nothing on him, though I wouldn't normally trust them anyway.
 
Originally posted by Jame:
Perhaps I could say it better. Hmm... By the end, Roma _wasn't_ equipping most of its troops beyond sword, shield and maybe helmet. The U.S. hasn't changed its equipment much, but it is still equipping its troops. As far as I'm concerned, the U.S. isn't paying its troops as well as it should - though infinitely better than Roma did at the end. My main point is that on the average, the common soldier of both governments wasn't trained nearly enough - even with the quality NCOs and officers. (Though I've made this clear, and maybe I don't have all the info.)
Arthur Ferrell wrote _The Fall of the Roman Empire: the Military Explanation_, my copy of which was purchased at Barnes and Noble Booksellers. I wouldn't know why amazon.com has nothing on him, though I wouldn't normally trust them anyway.
Not on BarnesandNoble.com either. Ah, Ferrill. There he is. Nope, never read him. Maybe after I finish Vegitatus.

The Roman army never issued the legionnaire more than armor, helmet, sword, dagger, spear, shield, cloak, dolombro (e-tool) and 1/8th of a tent. I am unclear why you think the soldiers of "Roma" were less well equipped in any way that matters.

So far you have offered little support for your thesis. Experience and length of training only roughly correspond to final skill, but it is a place to start. For example, can you at least compare the basic training periods of the armies you are critisizing? Of course, that does nothing for your original thesis of equipment issues, but it seems you are wisely abandoning that position and hoping that I will forget you were there.

The U.S. Army pays it's EM crap, by civilian standards. But I can't think of a successful army that paid (or pays) its private soldiers a living wage. Can you offer an alternative example, where a well-paid army professional army consistantly defeated poorly paid ones? Amateurs, draftees and militia don't count.
 
Well, since victory is brought about by training... And my point is that the U.S. is beginning to lack in training... But since the original discussion was about the real ACR, the Gewehr-elf would be my version, and I Want One!!
 
Humm.. well paid professional army being beaten buy amatuers... Indochina? French Expeditionary Corps got the snot beat out of them.

Visigoths vs Eastern Roman Empire 376
Turks Vs Byzantines 1071

humm
thinking
 
hmm... a good point was made... this has strayed from the topic of ACR to a 3 page debate on a variety of other issues.
However interesting, it's certainly off topic... how about another thread?

Bryan
 
Anbody else a fan of large (Greater than 5.56mm)caliber assault weapons... 5.56mm just isn't hacking it in my book.
 
I read a description of a 10mm bolt-action carbine, an 11mm rifle, and a 15mm rifle in a sci-fi book series called _The General_, which were all black-powder weapons. The first two used cartridges, though I'm not sure about the last one. The real large caliber weapon which I really want is the Barret (Browning?) Special Purpose .50 caliber rifle.

Does the caliber of a Tl-15 Fusion Gun relate to the damage it causes?
 
whoa tiger .. 15mm lol... I think 12.7mm or 14.5 is eqv to the 50 cal. and that would be a bit of a recoil and limited rate of fire for a stupid Infantry proof weapon... Better to take on LAFVs or aircraft with them puppies.

Any thoughts ?
 
I've always been a fan of the 10mm round from Aliens. This is one forum where my substantial knowledge of guns is that of a child's, but I'll pipe in anyway (just for kicks). I believe Bryan mentioned he liked the relative simplicity of the Aliens M41A1 design. That is a good example of what I consider to be a fairly effective ACR. It has a larger caliber to allow for a more substantial bullet that has extra features like "Armor Piercing Explosive." This is important when normal rounds would be defeated easily by their body armor.

The Weapon vs Armor Competition thread in the T20 Q&A folder is rather interesting too, but it's mostly T20 game mechanics.

I feel that an ACR should have the gadgets that the TL it's made at can produce with a certain level of ruggedness. I most shoot handguns, but I already appreciate the value of a rugged weapon. I own a Glock. It's an extremely simple pistol to operate and it's virtually indestructible. It doesn't really *need* to be cleaned that often, and it's incredibly easy to field strip when you do need to clean it. Having a weapon that breaks when you look at it sideways is not something that your troops are going to appreciate. As much as I like lasers and plasma guns, I think this is why Traveller (rather uniquely in the sci-fi world) usually has projectile weapons up until the very highest of TL's.

People often assume that "space travel = hand held energy weapons", a la Star Trek or Star Wars (not sci-fi, I know I know :cool: ). However, in my opinion, it's becoming far more likely that we'll achieve some level of real space flight long before creating a reliable laser pistol. I suppose lasers would be useful in a zero-g environment, simply because you aren't as likely to smack your gun hard when you hit the dirt.

What do you guys think of gauss rifles (or David Webers "grav pulsers") as weapons? I generally think they are an interesting idea, and I believe I've seen calculations that show that a gauss-style weapon is a much more efficient energy projector than a laser or particle beam. <shrug>

Regardless, this is a really interesting discussion (provided it gets back on track) and I've enjoyed reading it. I know the modern tendancy to go for low caliber, high velocity rounds is supposed to increase armor penetration, but I think it might be reversed again to higher tech ammo as armor technology gets better and better.

COmments?
 
Oh yeah, the 10mm from Aliens! Forgot about that. I want one of those, too. _After_ I leave my current residence, though.
 
I always felt what set the ACR off from assault rifles was its ability to defeat body armor. That meant, IMHO, APDS was the only real ACR ammo. The latest generation of military rifles (G11, Tavor, FN2000, etc) look like ACRs, but they are really just assault rifles dressed by Fredericks of Hollywood.
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Oddly enough, I have always been a fan of the Traveller 9mm ACR. The problem with big bore full auto weapons is the recoil makes full auto fire uncontrolable. Because the ACR is mostly firing low weight APDS or HE projectiles I can immagine even the 9mm as controllable. Of course the sights are the best part ... pity it was written up ten years before helmet mounted sights were imagined.

The Aliens 10mm always bothered me. With the high rate of fire (IIRC there were Thompsons inside that plastic, so in a sense, Trader Jim could buy one) and the low recoil it must be a low velocity weapon. And I am not impressed by "armor piercing" explosive rounds smaller than 25mm. Traveller always figured HE did lots of damage without much penetration, which makes more sense to me.
 
hummm any notions on the possible soldier proof enhancements for and ACR other tahn enhanced optics, HUD and laser destignator?
 
I'd rather have a grav pulser, but if not a tl-15 gauss rifle and pistol. This is assuming that I can't have an FGMP-15 with powered battle armor.
 
Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff:
hummm any notions on the possible soldier proof enhancements for and ACR other tahn enhanced optics, HUD and laser destignator?
I always like the idea of pointing your gun around a corner to see what's there ... makes sens not to risk your precious head when a camera on the gun can convey the same info to your HUD. It might also make court martials easier if the gun camera recorded what was seen/shot.

It would also be nice to be able to easily switch between ammo types between shots, so for example the barbarian gets the HE round whilst the Imp marine next to him gets the AP one.

Ummm, smaller, lighter, cheaper?
 
There's a neat book about 20th century weapons out, though it's expensive (priced at $24.95, published by Krause Publications), titled _Military Small Arms of the 20th Century (7th Edition)_, written by Ian V. Hogg and the late John S. Weeks. The G-11 and Steyr ACR are in there.
 
Originally posted by Jame:
I read a description of a 10mm bolt-action carbine, an 11mm rifle, and a 15mm rifle in a sci-fi book series called _The General_, which were all black-powder weapons. The first two used cartridges, though I'm not sure about the last one. The real large caliber weapon which I really want is the Barret (Browning?) Special Purpose .50 caliber rifle.

Does the caliber of a Tl-15 Fusion Gun relate to the damage it causes?
The 11mm Armory rifle from the 'General' series is based off the British rifle used during the Zulu wars (for the life of me I forget the name and caliber). Single shot, breech-loaded, lever action. For the Colonial carbine, think Sharps? from the Civil War. That carbine had some big bullets.
 
Originally posted by Ellros:
The 11mm Armory rifle from the 'General' series is based off the British rifle used during the Zulu wars (for the life of me I forget the name and caliber). Single shot, breech-loaded, lever action. For the Colonial carbine, think Sharps? from the Civil War. That carbine had some big bullets.
Martini-Henry .450. IIRC a 350 gr (~23 gram) soft lead bullet at about 1300 fps (400 m/s) Ballistcally very similar to the U.S. 45-70, but the action was more reliable.

The action was based on the American Peabody and similar to the Remington Rolling bock, and aren't you sorry you brought it up? :D
 
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