The starfleets of 2300
- Thread starter Murph
- Start date
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Wheile running a Aussie based game, I used RASF flagged Kennedy class ships (From memory I called them the Prime Minister class, but I may have used County/Perry naming nomeculture. It was a while ago). There was no aussie native ships....
As for strengths. Invasion lists a fairly comprehensive list. Of the various nations only the German DSKM is definately complete (although fighter numbers are questionable). The complete orbat for the DSKM is (2301): 1 BB (Bayern, not the same ship as the explorer), 2 BC (Bismarck and Guderian), 7 CG, 7 DD, 17 F.
The Orbats only include Earth and the French Arm, they exclude Tirane and the American-Chinese Arms. An interpolation to fill these out (remembering the main home fleets are knowns) gives:
French MSIF: 1 CV, 5 BB, 12 CG, 20 DD, 33(?) FF
British RSN: 1 CV, 3 BB, 1 BC, 9 CG, 13 DD, 20 FF
American ASF: 1 BB, 9 CG, 12 DD, 18 FF
Japan is an unknown, but current guess's are 1BC, 4 CG, 8 DD, 12 FF. Manchuria is also unknown, but probably 2nd to France.
This would rank the major forces thus:
1: France
2: Manchuria
3: Britain
4: Germany
5: America
6: Japan
7: Australia
As for best Cruiser. Canonically, the French Cruisers are best once they receive modern weapons (2298). They are fast enough to outrun missiles (any but their own), so can deny action, are well screened and armoured with a strong energy weapons battery and good offensive missile power.
The American Cruiser has good speed (once you add in the ordnance and the other items that cruisers have, the move value drops to 8), and can deny action unless caught in a compromising situation (discharging) which under some people campaigns (i.e. those with the "all seeing eye" grav sensors) is impossible to avoid. Armour and screens are non-existant, although missile power is excellent. Essentially, difficult to destroy, but difficult to do anything with unless you're willing to risk destruction.
The German Cruiser is frankly, p***poor, but is quite broken and needs a rewrite. The power plant is an obsolete 50MW fission plant used on destroyers retired by France in the 2250's. Screens are token, and armour is poor. Sensors are laughable. The actual missile power is quite good though, you can easily make a better ship with the same perameters.
The Ukrainian Cruiser is representative of a last generation cruiser, refitted to not quite modern standards. It lacks a modern Fire control system, has an excellent beam weapons battery, decent screens and armour and a reasonable turn of speed (but not fast enough to outrun modern missiles, so can't break contact, however Kafer missiles are slower, so vs the Kafer it can). Probably the second best despite being about 50 years older than the Suffren.
Various player designed cruisers are around. I have one at: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/SG/Nelson.htm
It's basically a Suffren type, with a smaller power plant, and slightly better electronics.
Bryn
Bryn
I think the fleet strengths are rather low. While I agree with your ranking system:
1: France
2: Manchuria
3: Britain
4: Germany
5: America
6: Japan
7: Australia
**I then add**
8. Azania
9. Argentina
10. Brazil
11. Texas
12. Brazil
I do think that the fleet strengths are possibly low by as much as 50%. Remember before WWII, the US had a large navy, but many of the ships were old, obsolescent, or just out obsolete (Omaha class cruisers anyone?) Same for the RN which had a large number of "R" class battleships, and obsolescent cruisers on hand. I think that the canon only covers the "modern" ships on hand. And as for troop carriers, again I think it is the same problem.
IM2300U I have the Texans purchasing older ships and then pulling an Israeli style upgrade on them to make them fully functional in a modern combat situation.
1: France
2: Manchuria
3: Britain
4: Germany
5: America
6: Japan
7: Australia
**I then add**
8. Azania
9. Argentina
10. Brazil
11. Texas
12. Brazil
I do think that the fleet strengths are possibly low by as much as 50%. Remember before WWII, the US had a large navy, but many of the ships were old, obsolescent, or just out obsolete (Omaha class cruisers anyone?) Same for the RN which had a large number of "R" class battleships, and obsolescent cruisers on hand. I think that the canon only covers the "modern" ships on hand. And as for troop carriers, again I think it is the same problem.
IM2300U I have the Texans purchasing older ships and then pulling an Israeli style upgrade on them to make them fully functional in a modern combat situation.
Possibly the fleets are rather small. There are a few interesting quotes that put a spin on it, and could help explain it. According to the basic boxed set, each missile costs essentially what it would if it were a starship (drones, which are also disposible pieces of ordnance do anyway). Apply this and suddenly the price of an armed warship increases majorly.
Of the above fleets, the only known Azania warships are 2 Ypres class [frigates?] (the design is essentially a cruiser, and IMC I call it a cruiser). Mexico has a Ypres CG/FF and some Orage FF (but not many, it was only in production a couple of years), refitted with missiles. Argentina and Brazil are complete unknowns, and the only known Texan ships are 9x X-2296 fighters (3 at Kormoran, 6 deployed on the French arm in 2301). Not that I think there aren't more ships.
Bryn
I have Texas with eight Novik class DDs (Mike Jasinski's site), and four extensively upgraded Konstantine class missile cruisers. Plus a battle cruiser and battleship building (but nowhere near completion). Four more Noviks are being purchased, along with two more Konstantines, and two Suffern class cruisers.
I find it odd that Russia would have such small space forces. But then again, the Navy has never been the strong suit of the Russians.
As for Russia, canonically they have ~5 FF, and Ukraine has 3 CG, 7 FF.
Bryn[/QUOTE]
Compared to the Invasion stats, but that's no worry if you have generally larger forces.
As for Russia, canonically they have ~5 FF, and Ukraine has 3 CG, 7 FF.
Bryn[/QUOTE]
There's was a debate about recently on groups.yahoo.com/group/etranger
Bryn </font>[/QUOTE]</font>[/QUOTE]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/etranger/
Are you a listmember? ISTR we set the archives to members only. I'm moderator so if you want I can manually sub you.
Bryn
Thanks, I'd like to discuss more with you. contact me at gcso9111@yahoo.com. Thanks.
Murph wrote:
"If Russia is not a major power and the Ukraine is, then how big is the Ukrainian navy?"
Murph,
The whole major power/navy size is entirely relative.
2300AD's Russia has deliberately chosen not to have colonies feeling that they are more trouble than they are worth and will eventually break away from the mother nation anyway. Without any interstellar colonies, Russia has little need for a large interstellar navy. Russia does hold up her end of Earth's OQC very nicely though.
2300AD's Ukraine is involved in the Kafer War all out of proportion to her actual power. This is due to two reasons; first - her only major interstellar colony was on Aurora and the Kafer attack there drew what little forces she has into the fray, and two - the only fleet combat genius yet produced on the human side of the War happens to be Ukrainian.
Given the need to recover her only colony (which is freely admittedly to be a national prestige project) Ukraine's fleet presence at the Kafer front amounts to almost her entire navy. That cannot be said about the other powers involved; France, Germany, the UK, America, etc.
Sincerely,
Larsen
"If Russia is not a major power and the Ukraine is, then how big is the Ukrainian navy?"
Murph,
The whole major power/navy size is entirely relative.
2300AD's Russia has deliberately chosen not to have colonies feeling that they are more trouble than they are worth and will eventually break away from the mother nation anyway. Without any interstellar colonies, Russia has little need for a large interstellar navy. Russia does hold up her end of Earth's OQC very nicely though.
2300AD's Ukraine is involved in the Kafer War all out of proportion to her actual power. This is due to two reasons; first - her only major interstellar colony was on Aurora and the Kafer attack there drew what little forces she has into the fray, and two - the only fleet combat genius yet produced on the human side of the War happens to be Ukrainian.
Given the need to recover her only colony (which is freely admittedly to be a national prestige project) Ukraine's fleet presence at the Kafer front amounts to almost her entire navy. That cannot be said about the other powers involved; France, Germany, the UK, America, etc.
Sincerely,
Larsen
3 Konstantin class Cruisers
3 Kiev class Destroyers (all destroyed 2297-8)
7 Aconit class Frigates
some Riche class fighters
Apparently all built abroad, as Ukraine has no shipbuilding capacity.
The Russians have (2301):
5 Tula class Frigates (first indiginous built warships, using a lot of major engineering bought from the French)
1-5 Aconit class Frigates (French built)
Invasion lists 5 Frigates, which I assume references the Tula (although at least one was still building), and they have some Aconits built in France.
The CAR also has a small navy, consisting of 2 French built Aconits.
Bryn
HI Brynn,
Figures I would Find you here.......
I almost always Agree with Brynns Number except where it comes into contact with the Agentinian, Brazilian, and Chinese Navies... since they were the three left out of Canon almost completely...
The Argentinian and Brazilian navies would be Quite large only because the state of Cold war between them and the factt heir colonies are along the same arm....Th Chinese for the fact that they have an entire Arm to police.....
I would actually place the Three of them directly behind
France-1
Germany -2
China-3
Argentina - 4
Brazil-5
America-6
Great Britian-7
Austrailia-8
Ukraine -9
Russia -10
Japan- 11
Texas - 12
etc etc....
But Brynn will argie with me like Normal
Mat
Figures I would Find you here.......
I almost always Agree with Brynns Number except where it comes into contact with the Agentinian, Brazilian, and Chinese Navies... since they were the three left out of Canon almost completely...
The Argentinian and Brazilian navies would be Quite large only because the state of Cold war between them and the factt heir colonies are along the same arm....Th Chinese for the fact that they have an entire Arm to police.....
I would actually place the Three of them directly behind
France-1
Germany -2
China-3
Argentina - 4
Brazil-5
America-6
Great Britian-7
Austrailia-8
Ukraine -9
Russia -10
Japan- 11
Texas - 12
etc etc....
But Brynn will argie with me like Normal
Mat
Cost is a major factor in the raising of a space force. Especially when you consider that most of the colonial powers are also maritime powers on Earth, and so essentially have to raise two navies. Admittedly, colonial resources help in this, but if you only have marginal colonies (Argentina, Canada, Brazil, etc) you don't have access to a great deal of resources with which to build a space navy. Especially if you have a coastline to defend back home.
I see fleet rankings something like this:
1 France
2 Manchuria
3 Britain (including Wellon)
4 America
5 Germany (not including Freihaven)
6 Japan
7 Australia
8 Ukraine
9 Texas
10 Brazil
11 Canada
12 Argentina
13 Mexico
As for cruiser designs, all around the French Suffren seems to be the best.
I don't see most powers out of the top five having much in the way of cruisers, no more than a couple, along with a few destroyers. Most space navy assets would likely be frigates like the Aconit, or even fighters, based planetside or from orbital stations.
I see fleet rankings something like this:
1 France
2 Manchuria
3 Britain (including Wellon)
4 America
5 Germany (not including Freihaven)
6 Japan
7 Australia
8 Ukraine
9 Texas
10 Brazil
11 Canada
12 Argentina
13 Mexico
As for cruiser designs, all around the French Suffren seems to be the best.
I don't see most powers out of the top five having much in the way of cruisers, no more than a couple, along with a few destroyers. Most space navy assets would likely be frigates like the Aconit, or even fighters, based planetside or from orbital stations.
