The starfleets of 2300

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by TempLoan:
HI Brynn,
Figures I would Find you here.......
I almost always Agree with Brynns Number except where it comes into contact with the Agentinian, Brazilian, and Chinese Navies... since they were the three left out of Canon almost completely...
The Argentinian and Brazilian navies would be Quite large only because the state of Cold war between them and the factt heir colonies are along the same arm....Th Chinese for the fact that they have an entire Arm to police.....

I would actually place the Three of them directly behind
France-1
Germany -2
China-3
Argentina - 4
Brazil-5
America-6
Great Britian-7
Austrailia-8
Ukraine -9
Russia -10
Japan- 11
Texas - 12
etc etc....

But Brynn will argie with me like Normal

Mat

Mat!

Personally, I think Argentina got ******** in a big way over the Santa Maria issue. They have a case to be a 2nd tier power.

Rather than arguing over specific orders:

Tier-1 powers, those with large off-world interests, and fleets sufficient to project power outside their area.

France, Britain, Germany, America (scraping in due to Kafer war) and Manchuria (including Korea)

Tier-2 powers are the large regional powers.

Australia, Brazil, Argentina-Mexico (including much of Latin America), Ukraine and Japan (if not a tier-1, which is debatable).

Tier-3 nations are those with off-world colonies, but probably not the resources to defend them.

Azania (where was the Azanian Fleet?), Texas, Canton (including Indochina), Arabia, Canada (if not a tier-2)

Tier-4 nations have some semblence of a space programme, but no colonies, outposts and laughable navies.

Russia (probably the top tier-4 and by military power a tier-3, includes Siberia), Incans, UAR, Scandanavians, Nigerians, Central Asians, Indonesia (including Malaysia)

Finally, tier-5, who have no indiginous access to space:

New Zealand, Papua, Tasmania, China, Indian States (all of them), Far Eastern Republic, Georgia and other ex-Soviet splinters, Poland, Hungary, Serbia and other central and eastern European states. Anyone else not mentioned.

Bryn

 

[BMonnery]

Also,

Elysia and HHMT would qualify as tier-4, Freihaven might be tier-2 or 3, depending.

TANSTAAFL would qualify as a 4, having a militia navy of 2 armed merchants.

Bryn

 

[Jame]

Two questions, neither of which really needs an individual topic (yet).

First, what are the warship types of 2300?

Second, what is the OCQ?

Thanks!

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Jame:
Two questions, neither of which really needs an individual topic (yet).

First, what are the warship types of 2300?

Second, what is the OCQ?

Thanks!

Orbital Quarantine Command, a multi-national organisation with the remit of stopping extra-terrestrial biomatter reaching Earth. To accomplish this they have a "blockade" composed of warships seconded from the Terran nations who shot down any unauthorised ships.

As for warship types, try these as exemplars:

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/9292/2300/Kennedy.htm (A "Cruiser")

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/SG/Nelson/Nelson.htm (a "Cruiser"

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/SG/Gloire/Gloire.htm (a "Cruiser")

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/SG/Martel/BMLEMartel.htm (a starfighter)

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/SG/Richelieu/RichBB.htm (a flagship)

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/SG/Bismarck/Bismarck.htm (a flagship)

Bryn

 

[BMonnery]

An odd thing I found on my remote drive from a while back:

Star Cruiser Combat Theory

At it’s essence, SC can be reduced to an equation, which is what I’m doing here.

Firepower

Firepower is essentially an expression of the number of strikes (of any damage value) which can be inflicted on the enemy. Firepower is essentially the number of strikes for an attack can effectively deliver (“good shots”). For missiles it is largely independent of any variable, but for submunitions and lasers CQ makes a difference. For beam weapons use half the available turrets, or 3/8ths if jack turrets.

Firepower of an attack = No. of strikes * chance of strike hitting a profile = 0 target

For a Kennedy class cruiser with +2 CQ (roughly the norm):

Missiles: 4 SIM-14 = 40 strikes, 60% chance of each hitting = 24
Beam: 10 lasers, 5 bear, 90% chance of hitting at range =0, FP=4.5, 70% chance of hitting at range =1, FP=3.5

Averaged over delivery time, the Kennedy’s firepower at various ranges is this:

Range Firepower per turn
0 (Point Blank) 28.5
1 (Point Blank) 27.5
7 (Point Blank) 24
14 12 (salvo every 2 turns)
21 8 (salvo every 3 turns)
28 6 (salvo every 4 turns)
30 (Max contact range) 4.8 (salvo every 5 turns)

This table is of course false, as the missiles fall as a single pulse at set intervals, but illustrates the tactical dilemma. At long ranges, the Kennedy’s firepower is greatly diminished by the long repair times between salvoes. At Point Blank ranges, defences do not have time to track the salvo, and are totally ineffective. This illustrates that closing to close range is desirable even with long range missiles. Passive detection sensors mounted on the hull can expect to make contact in the 14 range band.

Let us contrast this with the firepower bands for a Kafer Improved Alpha, such as the one met at Arcturus.

Missile FP: 2*14= 28. 28*0.7= 19.6
Beam FP (+1 CQ): 5.25 lasers bearing, 90% accurate plus 2.5 PBWS, 80% accurate = 6.725 (round to 6.7), 5.2 at range = 1

Range FP/t
0 (PB) 26.3
1 (PB) 24.8
6 (PB) 19.6
12 9.8
18 6.5
24 4.9
30 3.9

Golf fighter: FP = 0.8 at 0, 0.6 at 1, so at all ranges we can consider the Alphas fighters to add 3.2 firepower

Defensive Firepower

This is calculated much like offensive firepower, but for –4 profile targets in band zero. This is the number of missiles the defenses should shoot down.

Kennedy = 5*0.5 = 2.5
Ialpha = 6.75

An added wrinkle is that of screens. These will usually neutralise a set % of the first missiles strikes, and then be depleted.

The Kennedy is screenless, the Ialpha has screens-9, which is effectively another 0.9 missiles shot down.

Kennedy = 2.5
Ialpha = 7.65

Golf fighter = 0.4

Survivability

Lethal damage is usually a critical, with computer being the most devastating, rendering the ship dead. The chance of this happening is 2%, or once every 50 strikes, so we will set 50 strikes as our basic “mission kill”. If 50 strikes have landed, then the target has also suffered 20 hull and 10 power plant hits, had 2.5 turrets lost, 5 DC crew killed and probably lost many other combat systems. For ships with less than 20 hull hits, or 10 power plant hits before the first line is filled (i.e. 50 total), adjust the base down accordingly.

Example: a Martel has only 3 hull hits, and 2 power plant hits before failure, the former implies a base of 7.5, the latter 10, so 7.5 hits is used as the mission kill base.

This value is enhanced by a low profile and armour.

The armour value is simply used as a multiplier, upto 9, where it has no further effect.

For every profile point above or below 0 (use lowest profile), add or subtract 10% from survivability.

Kennedy: basic 50
Alpha: 50* 9 * (100%-2*10%) = 360
Martel = 7.5*9*(100%+3*10%) = 87.75
Golf = 208

Example: Arcturus

We can work out effective firepower (fp-def fp) delivered at all ranges.

2x Kennedy attacking Alpha

Range Firepower per turn
0 (Point Blank) 57
1 (Point Blank) 55
7 (Point Blank) 48
14 0 (Point defence is too effective)
21 0
28 0
30 (Max contact range) 0

Alpha and 4x Golf attacking 2x Stacked Kennedy

Range FP/t
0 (PB) 29.5
1 (PB) 28.3
6 (PB) 21.8
12 3.2
18 3.2
24 3.2
30 3.2

The obvious math shows that missiles are totally ineffective beyond point blank range, defences on both sides are strong enough to shoot down the vampires. The Kennedy, with their superior speed can set the range, but are always vulnerable to attack by the Golfs.

Closing to range = 0 that they will inflict the following damage on each other:

Turn Alpha Kennedys
1 57 29.5
2 114 59, one Kennedy down, American FP halved
3 142.5 88.5, one Kennedy down, American FP halved
4 171 108, both Kennedy down

Opening to a further better, but is still a total loss:

Turn Alpha Kennedys
1 48 21.8
2 96 43.6
3 144 65.4, one Kennedy down, American FP halved
4 168 87.2
5 192 109, both Kennedy down

The Kennedy simply don’t have the effective firepower. No strategy used by the American commander could have resulted in a victory bar an early fluke hit getting through and disabling the Alpha for long enough for exploitation.

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello BMonnery,

While looking at 2300 AD links from the Pentopod website I cam across a link for Orbital Shipyards that may answer the various questions posed here.

Originally posted by BMonnery:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Murph:
Comparing the powerhouse fleets; Imperial French, RSN (Royal Space Navy) and the other fleets- USSF, Imperial Japan, Russia, who is really the strongest? Is there a site with canon fleet strengths listed?

Who has the best cruiser? My vote is the Kennedy class from the US.

As for strengths. Invasion lists a fairly comprehensive list. Of the various nations only the German DSKM is definately complete (although fighter numbers are questionable). The complete orbat for the DSKM is (2301): 1 BB (Bayern, not the same ship as the explorer), 2 BC (Bismarck and Guderian), 7 CG, 7 DD, 17 F.

The Orbats only include Earth and the French Arm, they exclude Tirane and the American-Chinese Arms. An interpolation to fill these out (remembering the main home fleets are knowns) gives:

French MSIF: 1 CV, 5 BB, 12 CG, 20 DD, 33(?) FF
British RSN: 1 CV, 3 BB, 1 BC, 9 CG, 13 DD, 20 FF
American ASF: 1 BB, 9 CG, 12 DD, 18 FF

Japan is an unknown, but current guess's are 1BC, 4 CG, 8 DD, 12 FF. Manchuria is also unknown, but probably 2nd to France.

This would rank the major forces thus:

1: France
2: Manchuria
3: Britain
4: Germany
5: America
6: Japan
7: Australia

As for best Cruiser. Canonically, the French Cruisers are best once they receive modern weapons (2298). They are fast enough to outrun missiles (any but their own), so can deny action, are well screened and armoured with a strong energy weapons battery and good offensive missile power.

The American Cruiser has good speed (once you add in the ordnance and the other items that cruisers have, the move value drops to 8), and can deny action unless caught in a compromising situation (discharging) which under some people campaigns (i.e. those with the "all seeing eye" grav sensors) is impossible to avoid. Armour and screens are non-existant, although missile power is excellent. Essentially, difficult to destroy, but difficult to do anything with unless you're willing to risk destruction.

The German Cruiser is frankly, p***poor, but is quite broken and needs a rewrite. The power plant is an obsolete 50MW fission plant used on destroyers retired by France in the 2250's. Screens are token, and armour is poor. Sensors are laughable. The actual missile power is quite good though, you can easily make a better ship with the same perameters.

The Ukrainian Cruiser is representative of a last generation cruiser, refitted to not quite modern standards. It lacks a modern Fire control system, has an excellent beam weapons battery, decent screens and armour and a reasonable turn of speed (but not fast enough to outrun modern missiles, so can't break contact, however Kafer missiles are slower, so vs the Kafer it can). Probably the second best despite being about 50 years older than the Suffren.

Various player designed cruisers are around. I have one at: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/SG/Nelson.htm

It's basically a Suffren type, with a smaller power plant, and slightly better electronics.

Bryn

Bryn </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
Hello BMonnery,

Whille looking at 2300 AD links from the Pentopod website I cam across a link for Orbital Shipyards that may answer the various questions posed here.

This is Wades Racines old stuff, and is skewed in quite a few ways.

There is a semi-canonical complete USSF orbat around, but it is really much smaller than most people would like.

Bryn

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello again Bryn Monnery, aka BMonnery,

Thanks for educating me on the site. My interest in 2300 AD, formerly Traveller 2300 AD, is a recent development based on a discussion of converting 2300 AD Hover vehicles into CT/MT/TNE/T4/GT/T20, mainly GT and T20, Traveller specifications. Sorry, about posting a potential skewed information link on this topic.

Originally posted by BMonnery:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
Hello BMonnery,

Whille looking at 2300 AD links from the Pentopod website I cam across a link for Orbital Shipyards that may answer the various questions posed here.

This is Wades Racines old stuff, and is skewed in quite a few ways.

There is a semi-canonical complete USSF orbat around, but it is really much smaller than most people would like.

Bryn </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
Hello again Bryn Monnery, aka BMonnery,

Thanks for educating me on the site. My interest in 2300 AD, formerly Traveller 2300 AD, is a recent development based on a discussion of converting 2300 AD Hover vehicles into CT/MT/TNE/T4/GT/T20, mainly GT and T20, Traveller specifications. Sorry, about posting a potential skewed information link on this topic.

The way he did it was to use the Rudell values from ECS, add some extra for the colonies and use that as an indicator for supported mass.

The main problems were that he wasn't thorough with the Rudells (for example, missing the quote that more than half Frances industry is in its African departments), and he used mass as his indicator, not price.

If I were to use this approach:

France: 11 (Hexagon France) + 11 (French Africa) + 5 (French Arm Colonies, Wades no.s) + 2 (Europe Neuve) + 21 (Nouvelle Provence) = 50

UK: 11 + 1 (Crater) + 2 (New Africa) + 4 (Alicia) + 19 (Wellon) = 37

Germany: 10 + 1 (Hochbaden) + 8 (Nibelungen) = 19

America: 17 + 1 (Hermes) + 2 (Tirania) = 20

Australia: 3

Japan: 16 + 14 (Tirane) + 1 (Beta Hydri) = 31

Mancuria: 22 + 1 (Colonies) = 23

Argentina: 7 + 9 (Santa Maria) = 16

Brazil: 37 + 8 = 45

Russia: 16

Canada: 2

This is the numbers of millions of people involved in wealth creation. A typical modern figure per a worker in the wealth creating industries is $250,000 per worker.

Giving:

France: 50
Brazil: 45
UK: 37
Japan: 31
Manchuria: 23
America: 20
Germany: 19
Argentina: 16
Russia: 16
Australia: 3
Canada: 2
Texas: 1

Modifying by TL (from striker):

France: 50
UK: 37
Brazil: 34
Japan: 31
America: 20
Germany: 19
Manchuria: 17
Argentina: 16
Russia: 12
Australia: 3
Canada: 2
Texas: 1

Bryn

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening (PST WA) Bryn,

As I mentioned I am very new to (ex-Traveller)2300 AD and I haven't yet gotten a very good look at the rules. With the proceeding sentence,I wish to thank-you for the information you have provided. Unfortunately, at the moment I only have a vague idea of what the whole thing means. Does, the core rule book or books expalin all of this or is this applied economics theory? I will admit I only have a very basic grounding in economics, which has been sitting around getting dusty.

Originally posted by BMonnery:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
Hello again Bryn Monnery, aka BMonnery,

Thanks for educating me on the site. My interest in 2300 AD, formerly Traveller 2300 AD, is a recent development based on a discussion of converting 2300 AD Hover vehicles into CT/MT/TNE/T4/GT/T20, mainly GT and T20, Traveller specifications. Sorry, about posting a potential skewed information link on this topic.

The way he did it was to use the Rudell values from ECS, add some extra for the colonies and use that as an indicator for supported mass.

The main problems were that he wasn't thorough with the Rudells (for example, missing the quote that more than half Frances industry is in its African departments), and he used mass as his indicator, not price.

If I were to use this approach:

France: 11 (Hexagon France) + 11 (French Africa) + 5 (French Arm Colonies, Wades no.s) + 2 (Europe Neuve) + 21 (Nouvelle Provence) = 50

UK: 11 + 1 (Crater) + 2 (New Africa) + 4 (Alicia) + 19 (Wellon) = 37

Germany: 10 + 1 (Hochbaden) + 8 (Nibelungen) = 19

America: 17 + 1 (Hermes) + 2 (Tirania) = 20

Australia: 3

Japan: 16 + 14 (Tirane) + 1 (Beta Hydri) = 31

Mancuria: 22 + 1 (Colonies) = 23

Argentina: 7 + 9 (Santa Maria) = 16

Brazil: 37 + 8 = 45

Russia: 16

Canada: 2

This is the numbers of millions of people involved in wealth creation. A typical modern figure per a worker in the wealth creating industries is $250,000 per worker.

Giving:

France: 50
Brazil: 45
UK: 37
Japan: 31
Manchuria: 23
America: 20
Germany: 19
Argentina: 16
Russia: 16
Australia: 3
Canada: 2
Texas: 1

Modifying by TL (from striker):

France: 50
UK: 37
Brazil: 34
Japan: 31
America: 20
Germany: 19
Manchuria: 17
Argentina: 16
Russia: 12
Australia: 3
Canada: 2
Texas: 1

Bryn </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
Evening (PST WA) Bryn,

As I mentioned I am very new to (ex-Traveller)2300 AD and I haven't yet gotten a very good look at the rules. With the proceeding sentence,I wish to thank-you for the information you have provided. Unfortunately, at the moment I only have a vague idea of what the whole thing means. Does, the core rule book or books expalin all of this or is this applied economics theory? I will admit I only have a very basic grounding in economics, which has been sitting around getting dusty.

Earth/ Cybertech SB gives some very basic economic data.

Extrapolating, including it's African departments, France is the most populous nation on Earth, with about 650 million citizens. Next would be Canton (the populous region of southern China, including Indochina) with just over 500 million.

Unfortunately, the EC/S only gives data for regions of Africa, not the individual nations themselves.

IMHO, using the given data to get TL estimates, and feeding into Striker is the best estimate we'll ever get of GDP.

For America:

212 million population, 89% college educated, 17 Rudells, slight excess on Agricultural and Power production, shortfall on mineral production.

Estimated TL (13 * college) = 11.57. Basic PC GDP = $15,140. We'll make America Industrial and Rich = $33,914

= 7.19 Trillion Dollars total

= BLv2,397

The UK: 111.644 million, TL-13 = BLv1,334

Bryn

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Bryn,

Thank-you for clarifying the information and for providing me with a reference that I have a copy of to study.

Originally posted by BMonnery:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
Evening (PST WA) Bryn,

As I mentioned I am very new to (ex-Traveller)2300 AD and I haven't yet gotten a very good look at the rules. With the proceeding sentence,I wish to thank-you for the information you have provided. Unfortunately, at the moment I only have a vague idea of what the whole thing means. Does, the core rule book or books expalin all of this or is this applied economics theory? I will admit I only have a very basic grounding in economics, which has been sitting around getting dusty.

Earth/ Cybertech SB gives some very basic economic data.

Extrapolating, including it's African departments, France is the most populous nation on Earth, with about 650 million citizens. Next would be Canton (the populous region of southern China, including Indochina) with just over 500 million.

Unfortunately, the EC/S only gives data for regions of Africa, not the individual nations themselves.

IMHO, using the given data to get TL estimates, and feeding into Striker is the best estimate we'll ever get of GDP.

For America:

212 million population, 89% college educated, 17 Rudells, slight excess on Agricultural and Power production, shortfall on mineral production.

Estimated TL (13 * college) = 11.57. Basic PC GDP = $15,140. We'll make America Industrial and Rich = $33,914

= 7.19 Trillion Dollars total

= BLv2,397

The UK: 111.644 million, TL-13 = BLv1,334

Bryn </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[rfmcdpei]

Does anyone have any thoughts on what would be appropriate fleet sizes for, say, Freihafen? As an industrialized state of 200 million people with a recent messy divorce from the nascent Germany, it could be a sleeping (or growing) giant.

 

[Colin]

Freihaven? They would have started out without a fleet at all, save perhaps for a couple of Bavarian frigates that defected. They have a ship-building infrastructure in place, but all aimed at the civilian market. For the first decade or so they would likely be dependent on the French, so their space military would have heavy French influences. Say, 6-10 frigates and 3-4 destroyers by 2310, up to a couple of cruisers by 2320. Perhaps something new and oddball, like a fighter/drone carrier. Their space forces would likely be a combination of old French designs and really new, prototype oddballs.

Colin

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Randy McDonald:
Does anyone have any thoughts on what would be appropriate fleet sizes for, say, Freihafen? As an industrialized state of 200 million people with a recent messy divorce from the nascent Germany, it could be a sleeping (or growing) giant.

It should rank (by the current spreadsheet, which uses GG2 base data) at nation no. 20 in terms of GDP, just above Mexico and below China. Of course, this is assuming it has continued to trade with whoever they got their raw materails from, and that might be blocks.

GDP is 1/5th that of the French, so pro rating against Invasion would give 2 Cruisers, 4 Destroyers and about 8 Frigates

Bryn

 

[rfmcdpei]

Colin:

I'd go for that definition myself. In the Bayern module, though, the captain of the AR-I vessel is described as being from Freihaven, and as being a person who rose through the ranks of the Garten Raumwaffe. There's a description in the text of his commanding a vessel on a regular run from Tirane to Proxima.

That text suggests to me that Garten/Freihaven has inherited a relatively sizable fleet from the Bavarian period. Given Tirane's astropolitical quiescence (even with Santa Maria) it's probably not a particularly large fleet, but still, it should be reasonably substantial IMO.

 

[William]

Originally posted by Colin:
Freihaven? They would have started out without a fleet at all, save perhaps for a couple of Bavarian frigates that defected. They have a ship-building infrastructure in place, but all aimed at the civilian market. For the first decade or so they would likely be dependent on the French, so their space military would have heavy French influences. Say, 6-10 frigates and 3-4 destroyers by 2310, up to a couple of cruisers by 2320. Perhaps something new and oddball, like a fighter/drone carrier. Their space forces would likely be a combination of old French designs and really new, prototype oddballs.

Colin

This sounds like a PC's wet dream. Wish I hadn't missed them the first time around. I'd really enjoy it if you play up the idea that, because they feel the need to catch up, they are really open to truely strange ideas. A Silicon Valley of naval archetecture, perhaps?

William

 

[rfmcdpei]

I'm doing, for the fan-based Tirane Sourcebook project, the ex-Bavarian colony. Hopefully it shouldn't be too blindingly incompatible with _2320._

The _Neumarkt_-class armored cruiser, designed by Terry Kuchta, is here:

http://www.foxx-industries.com/2300ad/ship-cg.htm#neu

 

[Murph]

Been re-reading "DREADNAUGHT" by Massey, and the question is: Build one or two battleships for national prestige, or build many more "cruisers"?

 

[mike wightman]

I'd go for the "many more cruisers" to allow force projection to more areas and for increased tactical flexibility.