The States of Glimmerdrift Reaches

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

So I stumbled on this, not sure where to report it @inexorabletash or if it can be fixed?

990 v. 1105

In 990 there's a planet missing Pau'oa and Isaggir has jumped several parsecs. Canton and Makag are transposed

 

[Spinward Flow]

 

[whartung]

In 990 there's a planet missing Pau'oa and Isaggir has jumped several parsecs. Canton and Makag are transposed

Sounds like Puppeteers to me!

 

[Quint]

As a long time player and gamemaster, I'm always amused by this. I'm still using the now decanonized JG and PP sectors because I established a fair amount of deep lore with them IMTU. I've always had a love affair with Traveller canon and retrofitting new bits onto the old bits - but I can't bring myself to change those.

D.

 

[inexorabletash]

So I stumbled on this, not sure where to report it @inexorabletash or if it can be fixed?

990 v. 1105

In 990 there's a planet missing Pau'oa and Isaggir has jumped several parsecs. Canton and Makag are transposed

View attachment 2522View attachment 2523

I'll try and dig in and see what's going on here.

 

[inexorabletash]

So the first record I can find of this change is in mail from Don McKinney in 2012, when we were helping out Mongoose with the Luriani book.

Don wrote:

Basically, this version of both Ley and Glimmerdrift (along with the details in the Luriani book) will serve to try and correct discrepancies between previously published material, GURPS Traveller material, and the T20 material.

• Canton/Makag seems like a data entry error; the UWPs haven't changed between the 990 and T5SS 1105 files, just the names.
• The world in 2937 similarly has the same UWP in both data sets, just the name changes (990: Isaggir, 1105: Pau'oa)

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

I'll try and dig in and see what's going on here.

I just figured it belonged on a to do list, somewhere close to the bottom. Let me know if there is a more appropriate forum for reporting these. It looks like some bad data made it into print (the 990 screenshot is from Gateway to Destiny, which rolled into the map.)

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

So the first record I can find of this change is in mail from Don McKinney in 2012, when we were helping out Mongoose with the Luriani book.

Don wrote:

• Canton/Makag seems like a data entry error; the UWPs haven't changed between the 990 and T5SS 1105 files, just the names.
• The world in 2937 similarly has the same UWP in both data sets, just the name changes (990: Isaggir, 1105: Pau'oa)

So my analysis was off: Isaggir I (Hex 2932 : C65A99B-7) was missing in 990-993 (or appeared after that time Brigadoon?), and Isaggir II (2937) is really aka Pau'oa.

 

[bookwyrm]

from what I know, year 1105 is the base line for systems. so the systems in year 990 would be the 1105 systems a 115 years earlier. so star ports, population, government, law, and technology could could be different. there might be other things that have changed, but planet names, size, atmosphere, hydrographics, stellar information should be the same.

if you look at Firebird in Ryazan subsector, it's 2829 C67369D-8 in 1105, but 679-617 in Ryazan subsector, C6B069D-9 in 990. it's name, atmo., and hydro. have changed.

part of me wants to correct my G2D Main World lists, and the other part isn't sure if I want to go that far. mostly because I need to compare it to both the 1105 & 990 Traveller Map, as there are inconsistencies between all three.

 

[GypsyComet]

from what I know, year 1105 is the base line for systems.

That would normally be the case, but the primal Canon 1105 source for the sector is the CT Atlas of the Imperium with only partial data, while the T20 Gateway to Destiny coverage is the first in detail but for 990.

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

FWIW, here's my notes on comparison of Glimmerdrift 990 v 1105

Worlds = 349 vs 350
Basic UWP (A123456-A) = 63 are the same, 287 Changed
Starports = 59 Changes. 38 Upgrades, 21 Downgrades
Size = 83 Changes, 71 are +1 or +2 in size
Atmosphere = 25 Changes, 19 are -1 to -6
Hydrographic = 16 Changes, 15 increases, 13 occurred where the Atmosphere also changed
Population = 117 Changes, 37 Increased, 80 decreased. 49 minus 1, 21 plus 1
Government = 58 Changes
Law Level = 56 Changes, 16 where the Government also changed
Tech Level = 154 Changes, 104 Increases, mostly to 5,6,7. 50 decreases appears to A, B, C

I didn't bother with Stellar, as I read that a lot of revisions were done to that. Also didn't bother with bases or PBG. Although there was one glaring population change, Slate (2322) grew from 7 million to 7 billion. And Canton aka Makag in 993 (3040) grew from 10 Billion to 90 Billion.

The rest of the population increases, even when they were greater than 1 Billion, were usually inline with possible population growth over 100 years. Growth from 10 billion to 20 billion is within the realm of possibilities.

There were 6 worlds that decreased by 10 Billion (-10% to 50%) and 4 that decreased by 1 Billion (-20% to 50%). Not recommended for holiday tours.

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

Here's a preview of Crucis Margin. The Yellow Circles represent population size. I can envision these scenarios: 990 - 1105 Everyone Flees the KKree, A Plague, A Very Nasty War, or Really Bad Survey Data (rewrite the 990 numbers).



1105

 

[GypsyComet]

That Lords of Thunder outpost in Crucis Margin was an oddity even before their border was defined in Lure. Considering how successful their bullying tactics are in 1116, and where they are striking, that's a tiny and terrible place to be the only known world.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Considering how successful their bullying tactics are in 1116, and where they are striking, that's a tiny and terrible place to be the only known world.

Gotta start somewhere?
Go to war with the forces and logistics you have ... not the forces and logistics you want (and wish you had)?

Not all hands that can be played are ideal.

 

[bookwyrm]

HJDeG: your hard work on this is kind of inspiring. I think I'll make the effort, for peace of mind and for adding 'color'.

also want to thank Spin & Comet for good insight.

 

[GypsyComet]

Gotta start somewhere?
Go to war with the forces and logistics you have ... not the forces and logistics you want (and wish you had)?

One little waterworld in 990 to a couple sectors of terror in 1120 is a bit much.

They take down the Renkard Union from the coreward side, which that world does not have the resources to do alone. With later development (Luretiir!girr didn't even have a recognized dotmap when Gateway to Destiny was written, just some borders on the old redline map), that world makes more sense as a forward base for recon and intimidation, later scaled back or abandoned as plans changed. The Thunder of 1105 is pretty close to that in any case, and closer by 1120 as the Renkard Union has fallen at that point. It is not a stretch to suppose that all of the independent worlds and (formerly more relaxed) polities around them are terrified that they might be next. By the mid 1120s the Thunder are throwing their weight around at Gateway Station. Their sphere of influence is far larger than their conquered territory.

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

The Population of the Crucis Margin Sector in 993 (Destiny Gateway, QLI) was 657.33 BILLION. In 1105 it's 67.8 Billion.
10 worlds lose over 10 Billion Inhabitants, totaling 590 BILLION.
All of the effected planets suffer a loss of -1 or -2 Tech Levels
Most of the worlds are centered around the 990 era Kafoe Dominate

I will drop this in a Crucis Margin thread

 

[GypsyComet]

FWIW, here's my notes on comparison of Glimmerdrift 990 v 1105

Worlds = 349 vs 350
Basic UWP (A123456-A) = 63 are the same, 287 Changed
Starports = 59 Changes. 38 Upgrades, 21 Downgrades
Size = 83 Changes, 71 are +1 or +2 in size
Atmosphere = 25 Changes, 19 are -1 to -6
Hydrographic = 16 Changes, 15 increases, 13 occurred where the Atmosphere also changed
Population = 117 Changes, 37 Increased, 80 decreased. 49 minus 1, 21 plus 1
Government = 58 Changes
Law Level = 56 Changes, 16 where the Government also changed
Tech Level = 154 Changes, 104 Increases, mostly to 5,6,7. 50 decreases appears to A, B, C

I didn't bother with Stellar, as I read that a lot of revisions were done to that. Also didn't bother with bases or PBG. Although there was one glaring population change, Slate (2322) grew from 7 million to 7 billion. And Canton aka Makag in 993 (3040) grew from 10 Billion to 90 Billion.

The rest of the population increases, even when they were greater than 1 Billion, were usually inline with possible population growth over 100 years. Growth from 10 billion to 20 billion is within the realm of possibilities.

There were 6 worlds that decreased by 10 Billion (-10% to 50%) and 4 that decreased by 1 Billion (-20% to 50%). Not recommended for holiday tours.

Much of this looks to be in line with the revisions applied across most of Charted Space. World sizes being increased or atmosphere and water being stripped are the most common adjustment to remove most of the physics defying worlds that need really unusual explanations. Ports and the social half of the UWP should see changes over 115 years, especially in an area originally characterized as "Mixed Client States"; naming might shift for the same reason. I would also expect to see fewer worlds in general that were strongly dependent on outside trade just to exist day to day.

The handful of really extreme changes and, IMO, the large scale political changes are the ones to concentrate on and either adjust or roll out the extraordinary explanations list for.

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

Much of this looks to be in line with the revisions applied across most of Charted Space. World sizes being increased or atmosphere and water being stripped are the most common adjustment to remove most of the physics defying worlds that need really unusual explanations. Ports and the social half of the UWP should see changes over 115 years, especially in an area originally characterized as "Mixed Client States"; naming might shift for the same reason. I would also expect to see fewer worlds in general that were strongly dependent on outside trade just to exist day to day.

The handful of really extreme changes and, IMO, the large scale political changes are the ones to concentrate on and either adjust or roll out the extraordinary explanations list for.

These are the droids I'm looking for!

Thanks. I thought I had read this explanation elsewhere, bookmarking it this time.

The next question @inexorabletash, are the physical UWPs being revised for the 990 Era Traveller Map? If so I would be happy to put the changes into a spreadsheet, just PM me the data format... OK not really I can only .csv and .xlsx. And if you want me to compile the stellar data changes I can do that too.

 

[GypsyComet]

One of the big reasons world sizes were adjusted upwards in most of the physics cases was because Size affects *none* of the Trade Codes in that range directly, only through its effects on air and water. Only two Size codes have associated Trade or Comment Codes: 0 (As) and 10+ (which turns a Wa into an Oc). Bumping sizes 1 through 4 up to 5 for worlds with any serious air is pretty painless.