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OTU Only: Third Imperium Inspiration

Wasn't there a d20 version published?

No. They lost their license to Dune about the same time they lost their Star Trek License. Something about either being sold to WotC or Losing the ST license. (I've seen both mentioned by LUG staff online.)

Bits of the d20 adventures were released...
 
I started reading Joe Haldeman's The Forever War. I'm not sure if it was one of the Inspirations for Traveller/The Third Imperium, but it was published in 1974, before Traveller. And, it is considered a science fiction masterwork. The book swept the awards, winning the Hugo, Nebula, and the Locus Award for Best Novel.

What does remind me of Traveller, though, is the first description the book has of space combat:

"We just engaged the enemy with two fifty-gigaton tachyon missiles and have destroyed both the enemy vessel and another object which it had launched approximately three microseconds before.

"The enemy has been trying to overtake us for the past 179 hours, ship time. At the time of the engagement, the enemy was moving at a little over half the speed of light, relative to Aleph, and was only about thirty AU's from Earth's Hope. It was moving at .47c relative to us, and thus we would have been coincident in space-time"--rammed!--"in little more than nine hours. The missiles were launched at 0719 ship's time, and destroyed the enemy at 1540, both tachyon bombs detonating within a thousand kicks of the enemy objects."

The two missiles were a type whose propulsion system was itself only a barely controlled tachyon bomb. They accelerated at a constant rate of 100 gees, and were traveling at relativistic speed by the time the nearby mass of the enemy ship detonated them.

They launched the missiles, and the missiles detonated almost 8 and a half hours later!
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMCiptdmxLk

The Final Conclusion of the Dune Series

Microsoft Research lecture

Frank Herbert wrote over 30 bestselling books during his lifetime, including the now classic six novels set in the Dune universe. The first book, Dune, won both the Nebula and Hugo awards and is still the worldΓÇÖs bestselling science fiction novel. When Frank Herbert died in 1986 he left behind the outlines for the continuation of the Dune saga, though they were hidden in two safe deposit boxes for over a decade. Following his death his son Brian Herbert compiled a massive Dune concordance and then, with writer Kevin J. Anderson, completed the saga with two trilogies and most recently Hunters of Dune. Herbert and Anderson will be here to discuss their collaboration on these books and their final grand climax to the Dune Chronicles, Sandworms of Dune, where key figures from the Dune saga continue to fight for the survival of the human species.
 
Dumarest may not be the source (this is consistently denied, ok I believe you), but it is totally playable with CT. I.E.: you need no other game system than CT to RP it. It is so playable, that it is hard to believe that there is no link.

have fun

Selandia
 
Marc W Miller has stated many many times that Dumarest is a primary inspiration for Traveller. This should have been put to bed long ago. There are other golden era novels that also inspire Traveller as originally written, but none provide as many game tropes as Dumarest.
 
This thread, as I understand it, is about the literary antecdants of the Third Imperium — not the original Traveller rules themselves. And it is undeniable that the original Traveller rules were strongly influenced by the setting and details in the Dumarest books.

But the setting implied in the original rules and the setting of the Third Imperium developed over time are two distinct things. The fact is you would be hard pressed to conjure the Third Imperium from the information found in Traveller Books 1, 2, and 3. One needs to add a lot more detail, introduce new rules, and nail down specific fictional details to make the original Traveller rules support the Third Imperium. Which, of course, is exactly what GDW did. The Third Imperium is an awesome application of the original Traveller toolkit rules to make a cool setting someone wants to share with other people.

And the Third Imperium drew on many SF books and stories in its creation. But I would not consider the Dumarest books having much to do with inspiring the Third Imperium. They are very different settings. Yes they might share some details. But many, many significant details are significantly different; and in focus; tone and feel they are completely different.

Dumarest may not be the source (this is consistently denied, ok I believe you), but it is totally playable with CT. I.E.: you need no other game system than CT to RP it. It is so playable, that it is hard to believe that there is no link.

have fun

Selandia

Is there someone really denying the direct connection between the original Traveller rules and the Dumarest books? Because that makes no sense.

Or are people saying the Dumarest books are not a direct and strong influence on the Third Imperium? Because that I would agree with.
 
I guess I wonder how much of the initial impulse for a science fiction role-playing game came from the original three Little Tan Books for Dungeons and Dragons, which did include ideas for adventuring on E. R. Burroughs Barsoom. Then there was the Temple of the Frog chapter in the Blackmoor supplement, where the High Priest was actually an alien with a Battle Suit for armor. Has anyone ever given that some thought?
 
I guess I wonder how much of the initial impulse for a science fiction role-playing game came from the original three Little Tan Books for Dungeons and Dragons, which did include ideas for adventuring on E. R. Burroughs Barsoom. Then there was the Temple of the Frog chapter in the Blackmoor supplement, where the High Priest was actually an alien with a Battle Suit for armor. Has anyone ever given that some thought?

Marc Miller has stated that the team at GDW was playing so much D&D when it came out they needed to institute a “No D&D During Work Hours” policy.

He also has said he had the original Dungeons & Dragons rule open in front of him when he wrote the rules for Traveller. He said he used them as a reference for what kinds of things players would need for an RPG.

I suspect this too is a controversial notion. But the man said it himself — and one need only look at the three volumes mikickry as well as other details within the rules to see the facts of the matter.

This is not to say Miller copied D&D for Traveller. He clearly went his own route and invented lots of mechanics and applications of play that would otherwise not have existed without him.

So, yes. D&D was a strong inspiration for Traveller.
 
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This thread, as I understand it, is about the literary antecdants of the Third Imperium — not the original Traveller rules themselves.

As the originator of this thread, I'd say that it's about any novel or short story that influenced any part of Traveller, whether you're talking about the original rules or the 3I.
 
As the originator of this thread, I'd say that it's about any novel or short story that influenced any part of Traveller, whether you're talking about the original rules or the 3I.

Oh, well then, yeah... the Dumarest books all the way down for Traveller Books 1, 2, and 3.

Here's Dumarest getting revived from low passage at the start of the first book:
‘You made it,’ said the handler. He sounded pleased. ‘I didn’t expect trouble but for a minute back there you had me worried.’ He leaned forward, his head blocking more of the light. ‘You sure that you’re okay?’

Dumarest nodded, reluctantly recognising the need to move. Reaching out, he clamped his hands on the edges of the box and slowly pulled himself upright. His body was as expected, nude, bleached white, the skin tight over prominent bone. Cautiously he flexed his muscles, inflated the barrel of his chest. He had lost fat but little else. He was still numb for which he was thankful.

‘I haven’t lost a one yet,’ boasted the handler. ‘That’s why you had me worried. I’ve got a clean score and I want it to stay that way.’

It wouldn’t, of course. Benson was still fresh at the game. Give him time and he would become less conscientious, more time and he would grow careless, finally he wouldn’t give a damn. That’s when some of his kind thought it cute to cut the dope and watch some poor devil scream his lungs raw with the agony of restored circulation.

‘I’m forgetting,’ he said. He passed over a cup of brackish water. Dumarest drank it, handed back the cup.

‘Thanks.’ His voice was thin, a little rusty. He swallowed and tried again. This time he sounded more like his normal self. ‘How about some Basic?’

‘Coming right up.’

Dumarest sat hunched in the box as Benson crossed to the dispenser. He wrapped his arms about his chest, conscious of the cold, the bleakness of the compartment. The place resembled a morgue. A chill, blue-lighted cavern, the air tainted with a chemical smell. A low place, shapeless with jutting struts and curved beams, harsh with the unrelieved monotony of unpainted metal.

There was no need for heat in this part of the ship and no intention of providing comfort. Just the bare metal, the ultraviolet lamps washing the naked coffin-like boxes with their sterilising glow. Here was where the livestock rode, doped, frozen, ninety per cent dead. Here was the steerage for travellers willing to gamble against the fifteen per cent mortality rate.

Such travel was cheap— its sole virtue.

But something was wrong.

Dumarest sensed it with the caution born of long years of experience. It wasn’t the waking. He had gained awareness long before the end of the five-minute waking cycle. It wasn’t Benson. It was something else— something which should not be.

He found it after he had moistened the tips of his fingers and rested them lightly against the bare metal of the structure. They tingled with the faint but unmistakable effect of the Erhaft field. The ship was still in space.

And travellers were never revived until after landing.

Here is Dumarest realizing the Erhaft field has stopped mid-journey:
From a ship in space stars were the last thing anyone would expect to see. Not with the Erhaft field wrapping the cocoon of metal in its own private universe and allowing it to traverse the spaces between worlds at multi-light speeds. Stars could not be seen beyond that field. If she saw them it could only mean that, somehow, the field had collapsed. But when? When?

Here is a description of the use of quicktime to relieve the boredom of interstellar journeys:
Dumarest booked passage on a small ship carrying mixed cargo and passengers to Hive. It wasn’t the best of its kind but it was the first to leave and he was in a hurry to get moving. It would be a long journey. Not for those travelling Low, riding doped, frozen and ninety per cent dead in the bleak, cold-region of the ship, resting in boxes designed to hold livestock. For them the journey would take no time at all. For some it would be the last journey they would ever make, the unlucky fifteen per cent who had chanced their luck once too often and who would never awake.

Nor for those travelling High. They enjoyed the magic of quick-time, the drug slowing their metabolism so that time streamed past and a day seemed less than an hour. Even for them, though, time existed and had to be killed in traditional ways.

In another book a couple trying to hijack a ship will use both quick time and slowtime to pull off their plan -- doping the crew with quicktime and injecting themselves with slow time.

There is no centralized government but rather countless unique worlds that deal with each other through trade.

Each world is unique and strange in its society and social structure, allowing Dumarest to encounter, explore, confront, and match wits with on the social level on each new world he travels to.

A decadent nobility rules over disenfranchised citizens on almost every world, but the focus of the nobility is not interstellar but on particular planets. (Social disparity and its fallout matters a lot in the Dumarest books. Also: Note the definitions of Nobility in Traveller Book 3, 1977 specifically.)

Dumarest encounters characters with various psionic powers -- unique and lonely in the universe.

There is no instantaneous communication between worlds. Rather messages are carried on trade vessels plying the space lanes.

Dumarest constantly encounters wiling patrons ready to hire him for his skills to carry out a mission on their behalf.

He hunts and encounters strange and unique beasts as he travels from world to world.

Specific weapons and armor (Blade; Mesh) are lifted directly from the books and into Traveller. Characters fight with swords and melee weapons as much as they use firearms.

And of course, this: "'Or you could hire a nulgrav raft,’ said the factor quickly."

And, of course, an almost endless string of unique and exotic worlds to adventure on, one after another. So many in fact, and so isolated from each other, the Earth itself has been forgotten and is just a rumor. The settings are often outlandish (though fun and compelling). Each planet is self-consistent in its logic, but no attempt is made to figure out how all these worlds would interact together. The rules for subsector and Main world creation in Book 3 seems designed specifically to create this kind of setting.

And note what is not present in the Dumarest books (at least those I have read): There are no ginormous ships; no grand fleets; no massive space battles. There are a few high tech gadgets, but advanced firearms are not common at all.

Those elements are off the top of my head after reading a few of the books. You will also find the rougher tone found in the earliest Supplements and Adventures of the Classic Traveller line. It's really all right there.

If anything the original Traveller rules seem uniquely well-suited to expand the Dumarest setting, where the Referee keeps coming up with cool worlds with unique societies, cultures, SF driven premises and environments for a group of hearty adventures to explore one after another. That's not what the rules were for, of course. But it sure seems like it was built to do something very "Dumarest-ish" right out of the box.
 
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Oh, well then, yeah... the Dumarest books all the way down for Traveller Books 1, 2, and 3.

And note what is not present in the Dumarest books (at least those I have read): There are no ginormous ships; no grand fleets; no massive space battles. There are a few high tech gadgets, but advanced firearms are not common at all.

Those elements are off the top of my head after reading a few of the books. You will also find the rougher tone found in the earliest Supplements and Adventures of the Classic Traveller line. It's really all right there.

If anything the original Traveller rules seem uniquely well-suited to expand the Dumarest setting, where the Referee keeps coming up with cool worlds with unique societies, cultures, SF driven premises and environments for a group of hearty adventures to explore one after another. That's not what the rules were for, of course. But it sure seems like it was built to do something very "Dumarest-ish" right out of the box.

I have a bunch of these, but have only read The Winds of Gath: I may need to read another one next, though having just finished The Delian Cycle by Kenneth Bulmer my tolerance for rote tropes might be too low.
 
Oh, well then, yeah... the Dumarest books all the way down for Traveller Books 1, 2, and 3.

Here's Dumarest getting revived from low passage at the start of the first book:
.
.
.

There is no centralized government but rather countless unique worlds that deal with each other through trade.

Each world is unique and strange in its society and social structure, allowing Dumarest to encounter, explore, confront, and match wits with on the social level on each new world he travels to.

A decadent nobility rules over disenfranchised citizens on almost every world, but the focus of the nobility is not interstellar but on particular planets. (Social disparity and its fallout matters a lot in the Dumarest books. Also: Note the definitions of Nobility in Traveller Book 3, 1977 specifically.)

Dumarest encounters characters with various psionic powers -- unique and lonely in the universe.

There is no instantaneous communication between worlds. Rather messages are carried on trade vessels plying the space lanes.

Dumarest constantly encounters wiling patrons ready to hire him for his skills to carry out a mission on their behalf.

He hunts and encounters strange and unique beasts as he travels from world to world.

Specific weapons and armor (Blade; Mesh) are lifted directly from the books and into Traveller. Characters fight with swords and melee weapons as much as they use firearms.

And of course, this: "'Or you could hire a nulgrav raft,’ said the factor quickly."

And, of course, an almost endless string of unique and exotic worlds to adventure on, one after another. So many in fact, and so isolated from each other, the Earth itself has been forgotten and is just a rumor. The settings are often outlandish (though fun and compelling). Each planet is self-consistent in its logic, but no attempt is made to figure out how all these worlds would interact together. The rules for subsector and Main world creation in Book 3 seems designed specifically to create this kind of setting.

.
.
.


Those elements are off the top of my head after reading a few of the books. You will also find the rougher tone found in the earliest Supplements and Adventures of the Classic Traveller line. It's really all right there.

If anything the original Traveller rules seem uniquely well-suited to expand the Dumarest setting, where the Referee keeps coming up with cool worlds with unique societies, cultures, SF driven premises and environments for a group of hearty adventures to explore one after another. That's not what the rules were for, of course. But it sure seems like it was built to do something very "Dumarest-ish" right out of the box.

Also note that the small tramp-traders Dumarest books passage on are called "Free Traders", are about the size of a 200 dton ship (roughly), and typically have a crew of five: Captain/Pilot, Navigator/1st Mate, Engineer, Steward/Medic, and Cargo Handler. Most of them live a hand-to-mouth existence, always looking for speculative cargo, and mostly not above getting involved in shady escapades if they think they can make a profit (since there is no evidence of an interstellar government enforcing any significant regulations on off-world behavior - just the demands of the free-market).

Dumarest himself fits the definition of the Traveller prior career "Barbarian" from CT: Sup 4, who subsequently in "prior career" had stowed away aboard a Free Trader, whose Captain (rather than spacing him) chose to grant him indefinite Working Passage (called "Middle Passage" in the books - awake for the long journey and experiencing "real-time") as a Merchant Apprentice, where he learned many Spacer skills.


And note what is not present in the Dumarest books (at least those I have read): There are no ginormous ships; no grand fleets; no massive space battles. There are a few high tech gadgets, but advanced firearms are not common at all.
I have read all 33 books, and neither Big Ships nor fleets appear anywhere, nor is there evidence of any interstellar government except that there are a few "pocket-empires" where one world controls one or several colony worlds militarily or thru trade. Basically, in space you are "on your own".

The most advanced weapons that I recall are lasers, and they are not common.
 
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In a way it's like when you watch movies after having played roleplaying games, and you see similarities.

For example, Firefly and Killjoys, and you think Traveller.

Or Bright, and you think ShadowRun.

Or Dungeons and Dragons, and you think crap.
 
Or Dungeons and Dragons, and you think crap.

LOL! :rofl:





Dumarest himself fits the definition of the Traveller prior career "Barbarian" from CT: Sup 4, who subsequently in "prior career" had stowed away aboard a Free Trader, whose Captain (rather than spacing him) chose to grant him indefinite Working Passage (called "Middle Passage" in the books - awake for the long journey and experiencing "real-time") as a Merchant Apprentice, where he learned many Spacer skills.

How long did it take that Barbarian to be educated to high tech space craft?
 
How long did it take that Barbarian to be educated to high tech space craft?

Unknown. It is all in the back-story. But Dumarest stowed away when he was a teenager. Most of his training seems to have been as a Cargo Handler and/or Steward/Medic, though he was exposed to astrogational charts. He is an adult as the 1st book begins (having left the Free Trader after the death of its Captain at some time prior to the outset of the book).
 
How long did it take that Barbarian to be educated to high tech space craft?

However long the author decided to allow for it in the book. It the author decides that the character is a fast learner, the character is a fast learner. Robert Howard had Conan able to learn new languages incredibly quickly, and remain fluent in them. The author is going to use whatever is necessary to produce the desired character.

How long it would take in the real world is another question.
 
Is there someone really denying the direct connection between the original Traveller rules and the Dumarest books? Because that makes no sense.

Or are people saying the Dumarest books are not a direct and strong influence on the Third Imperium? Because that I would agree with.

My point is the adventure of Dumarest were and remain totally playable with CT, in the OTU, including its current Third I evolution. Of course it may be more freely set in a "dark/long night" era, or to sector 268 area, for it is independant of a strong imperial power. Still, the OTU either reflect the Dumarest universe or is carefull not to make it impossible.

Of course Tubbs never wrote Dumarest as an Imperial Gladiator having the wife of Cleon as a groupie, (a OTU specific setting), but you can still RP that adventure and I suspect that a great many contributors to the TI setting would ask themselves "could it be played with CT?" and therefore (worded as such or not), "is it a Dumarest compatible setting?"

If, as I suspect, a "Dumarest Filter" is applied (and it is de facto when the "CT compatible" filter is applied), then Dumarest is linked to the TI, although the "Quest for Terra" make no sense in the OTU and making a copycat adventure impossible.

How "strong and direct" an influence is such an "compatibility" requirement? Every one will judge. I will admit easily that the OTU Trd Imp is not an attempt at cut and paste the Dumarest setting.

Have fun

Selandia
 
How long did it take that Barbarian to be educated to high tech space craft?

If I understand correctly from some quick digging Dumarest was a young boy when he stowed away on the spacecraft. So the start of his prior career was still some ten to eight years away. His career would have started on spaceships as he plied the star lanes. (He is most at home traveling.)

If anyone is interested, here is Dumarest statted in Supplement 1:
Homeless Wanderer BFCA98 Age 34 Cr - 0 to 100,000
Blade-6, Most other edged weapons-4, Most guns-4, Streetwise-3, Steward-2, Pilot-1, Tactics-3, Leader3


This individual habitually carries a blade or dagger and wears mesh. Raised on a tramp trader, he now wanders the galaxy alone, searching for the home he left as a youth.

In the course of his travels, he has acquired the formula to the affinity twin, a
chemical that, when ingested by two beings (animals, persons, etc) allows one to occupy and control the other. The occupation ends with the death of one of the individuals.

Incidentally, he is pursued by nefarious forces that want this formula.


My point is the adventure of Dumarest were and remain totally playable with CT, in the OTU, including its current Third I evolution.

I agree with the notion that the adventures could easily play out. In terms of setting however, the only way to make the setting of the Dumarest books and the Third Imperium line up is to make sure you ignore anything to do with the Third Imperium. Which, in the examples you give about your games, is what you lean toward.
 
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The OTU is more than the Third Imperium. As has been mentioned the adventures of Dumarest would fit right in to the Long Night Era, or post Virus TNE, or post Empress Wave collapse etc. However, since this is a Classic Traveller thread we have to discount the Virus and Empress Wave influenced settings, leaving only the Long Night...

Or it could even be set in the sectors to rimward of Sol, far away from the 3I, or far to spinward or far to trailing in the same timeframe as golden age 3I but totally separate in locale.

I agree, the Third Imperium is not something taken from the Dumarest books (more likely the Foundation series), but many of the tropes that still operate in the frontier sectors far away from "the remote centralized government (referred to in this volume as the Imperium), possessed of great industrial and technological might, but unable, due to the sheer distances and travel times involved, to exert total control at all levels everywhere within its star-spanning realm."

I note that there are many threads, discussions, even authors who have forgotten that the Imperium only grants extensive autonomy to its frontier worlds, all the evidence for the early years points to much more direct Imperial rule and control of core sector worlds - but the adventure was to be found out on the frontier.

A referee could easily run a Dumarest like series on the fringes of the original Spinward Marches. It was only later when we learned the SM had been settled for a thousand years and that the Imperial Navy fleet is effectively omnipotent that this type of adventure stops making sense. The SM lost its frontier feel IMHO.

Back in the proto-Imperium Spinward Marches Earl Dumarest would have been right at home.
 
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