Thoughts and ideas on "fixing" High Guard

[Carlobrand]

Let's begin with the assumption that we want a variant of High Guard that favors a milieu similar to the Imperium we see: dreadnoughts and so forth. Thoughts on accomplishing that?

Meson screens
In addition to their usual role, they act as armor against meson fire, reducing the quantity of mesons that penetrate on a successful hit to reduce the number of extra hits by spinals by 1 per screen rating; meson spinals still get a minimum of 2 rolls, assuming they hit and penetrate.

Computers
Eliminate the EP requirement (more or less in line with their treatment in MegaTrav).
Eliminate the ship-size limit. (same comment)

 

[rancke]

Change "Fuel tanks shattered" to "X,000 tons of fuel lost". I'm not sure what X should be, but it should cripple cruisers while letting battleships fight on (until hit several more times).


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Here are a few that we came up with over the years. (credit to Oz

Add extra lines to the USP weapon block so you can have more than one size of each type of weapon. If you want meson spinal, bays and turrets go for it

Scrap EPs for weapons other than for calculating BG absorption, pp no longer have to go above 6

Bay weapons don't get the +6 on the damage table for being factor 9 or less.

Big ships require a number of hits equal to their size to hit modifier to damage a component.

Big ships can mount spinal small spinals as secondary weapons, max size = 0.01M

Scrap batteries bearing.

Missiles should have a maximum number of reloads.

Bring back the HG1 rules for breaking through the line, high intensity missile barrages that sort of thing.

Instead of presenting one ship to have fire resolved, a player presents a ship and its escorts at the same time. The escorts may use their weapons to defend the main target.

Move fuel tanks shatter to critical hit table.

If you really want to fix HG2 transpose the jump drive and maneuver drive %s (brings them back in line with CT LBB2 )

 

[rancke]

HG is CT too.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

Change "Fuel tanks shattered" to "X,000 tons of fuel lost". I'm not sure what X should be, but it should cripple cruisers while letting battleships fight on (until hit several more times).

"Fuel tanks shattered" is one of those nonsensical results. I'd kick it up an order of magnitude or two from the standard fuel hit: 10%, minimum 1000 dTons.

Here are a few that we came up with over the years. (credit to Oz

Add extra lines to the USP weapon block so you can have more than one size of each type of weapon. If you want meson spinal, bays and turrets go for it

Scrap EPs for weapons other than for calculating BG absorption, pp no longer have to go above 6

That EP one should be at the top of the list! Although, screens would still require a bit of PP.

Bay weapons don't get the +6 on the damage table for being factor 9 or less.

Big ships require a number of hits equal to their size to hit modifier to damage a component.

So, a battleship-size target needs two hits per factor? Or a cruiser needs two and a battleship needs three?

Big ships can mount spinal small spinals as secondary weapons, max size = 0.01M

Now we're looking like Battleship Yamato. I kinda like it. What can we call that big mutha? Barbette's used. Battlement? Bartizan?

You'll need some limits if you aren't counting weapons power against the ship. Turrets are one per hundred and occupy 1 to 5 dtons, bays are one per thousand and occupy 50 to 100. I'd limit the option to the thousand ton spinals, more to ease calculation and because most times two small thousanders is better than one two-thousander. One biggie per ten thousand tons of ship? Seems like a lot, but then WW-II battlewagons might carry 9 to 12 big guns, and it would more emphatically alter the dynamic when facing off against SDBs and battleriders. A dreadnought might have ten of the things along with its usual batteries of bays and turrets. Makes for a very different game. I like.

Scrap batteries bearing.

Missiles should have a maximum number of reloads.

We could bring over MegaTrav's missile magazine rules.

Bring back the HG1 rules for breaking through the line, high intensity missile barrages that sort of thing.

Instead of presenting one ship to have fire resolved, a player presents a ship and its escorts at the same time. The escorts may use their weapons to defend the main target.

Let fighter squadrons of 10 each integrate their weapons as a single battery when defending a target against inbound missiles or beams.

Move fuel tanks shatter to critical hit table.

If you really want to fix HG2 transpose the jump drive and maneuver drive %s (brings them back in line with CT LBB2 )

Only issue I see there is it advantages SDBs and riders since they'd need less tonnage for drives. Probably not insurmountable - it's a small edge compared to not having to carry jump fuel.

 

[rancke]

"Fuel tanks shattered" is one of those nonsensical results. I'd kick it up an order of magnitude or two from the standard fuel hit: 10%, minimum 1000 dTons.

Not a percentage. An absolute amount. You have to make/keep cruisers too vulnerable to be able to stand in the line of battle. And at the other end of the scale, bigger battleships should be tougher than smaller battleships in order to explain why bigger battleships are built.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

That EP one should be at the top of the list! Although, screens would still require a bit of PP.

MgT High Guar has a neat solution to powering weapons an shields - minimum power plant size requirements.

So, a battleship-size target needs two hits per factor? Or a cruiser needs two and a battleship needs three?

Yup, I wasn't sure I'd made that very clear

We could bring over MegaTrav's missile magazine rules.

Good idea.

Let fighter squadrons of 10 each integrate their weapons as a single battery when defending a target against inbound missiles or beams.

Yes, fighters should link together and fight as a squadron with a squadron weapon factor.

Only issue I see there is it advantages SDBs and riders since they'd need less tonnage for drives. Probably not insurmountable - it's a small edge compared to not having to carry jump fuel.

This one is just a pet reave of mine

MgT HG has it fixed, almost

One of my favourite changes to HG is to have squadron cards - the ships from the fleet are stacked and moved on a system map as squadrons. This is done on a scale of a day per turn.

 

[The Oz]

I believe I still have all those HG mods we worked out, Mike.

If anyone wants to see them....

The Oz

 

[McPerth]

Meson screens
In addition to their usual role, they act as armor against meson fire, reducing the quantity of mesons that penetrate on a successful hit to reduce the number of extra hits by spinals by 1 per screen rating; meson spinals still get a minimum of 2 rolls, assuming they hit and penetrate.

I suggested time ago to use them as armor to all effects, not only to reduce the extra hits (so also adding to the damage rolls), but reduce this "armor effect" by the amount the "to penetrate" roll exceded the needed number.

Change "Fuel tanks shattered" to "X,000 tons of fuel lost". I'm not sure what X should be, but it should cripple cruisers while letting battleships fight on (until hit several more times).

I keep suggesting that X to be weapon dependent (X times the weapon factor), so that a T meson spinal is more lethal tan a J one, and a battle cruiser (having more fuel for the same tonnage) can withstand more hits tan a BR.

Add extra lines to the USP weapon block so you can have more than one size of each type of weapon. If you want meson spinal, bays and turrets go for it

Fully agreed here.

Scrap EPs for weapons other than for calculating BG absorption, pp no longer have to go above 6

MgT High Guar has a neat solution to powering weapons an shields - minimum power plant size requirements.

Fully disagree here. I like the need of larger power plants to have more powerful weapons. In MgT HG, a small ship may have any numbre of meson bays as easily as it can with PA, as they need the same PP.

Bay weapons don't get the +6 on the damage table for being factor 9 or less.

Some one suggested to allow bays to be joined (as turrets are) to give larger batteries (so forefeiting the +6 for bein rated 9-).

Big ships require a number of hits equal to their size to hit modifier to damage a component.

So a battleship battery, even being the same than a cruiser one would require more hits to be damaged?

Sorry, I don't like the idea. Larger ships use to have more those components, so I don'tsee the need for it.

Big ships can mount spinal small spinals as secondary weapons, max size = 0.01M

Remember that to fire an spinal you must aim the whole ship, so having more tan one would not allow you to fire more than one ship (unless they are so kind as to position themselves with the exact angle).

I definitely don't like this one, IMHO it goes against the whole idea of spinal weaponry.

Instead of presenting one ship to have fire resolved, a player presents a ship and its escorts at the same time. The escorts may use their weapons to defend the main target.

I like this one.

Move fuel tanks shatter to critical hit table.

See my comment to Hans suggestion (the second one in this post) for this one.

 

[mike wightman]

Fully disagree here. I like the need of larger power plants to have more powerful weapons. In MgT HG, a small ship may have any numbre of meson bays as easily as it can with PA, as they need the same PP.

Its a moot point in MgT HG anyway since everyone sticks a power plant 6 in

So a battleship battery, even being the same than a cruiser one would require more hits to be damaged?

Sorry, I don't like the idea. Larger ships use to have more those components, so I don'tsee the need for it.

I didn't explain it very well, only engine and fuel hits get the extra hit capacity.

Remember that to fire an spinal you must aim the whole ship, so having more tan one would not allow you to fire more than one ship (unless they are so kind as to position themselves with the exact angle).

I definitely don't like this one, IMHO it goes against the whole idea of spinal weaponry.

The small spinals aren't spinals at all in thei variant - they are 1000t bays

 

[mike wightman]

I believe I still have all those HG mods we worked out, Mike.

If anyone wants to see them....

The Oz

Please do post them, I'm making a right pigs ear of explaining them

 

[samuelvss]

Remember that to fire an spinal you must aim the whole ship, so having more tan one would not allow you to fire more than one ship (unless they are so kind as to position themselves with the exact angle).

Well, if you are aiming the ship, with more than one spinal mount coaxially located, you could fire them at the same target, either simultaneously (sharing the same "to hit" roll), or at different times within the 20 minute turn. In HG2, you are in essence firing from a moving target at a moving target: firing at [however slightly] different times would increase your chance of getting time-based calculations right. In a way it's like shooting skeet with an auto shotgun (with no recoil): you want to "swing through" your target, but there's an instant when you should pull the trigger; you can miss by being either slow or fast.

 

[Carlobrand]

...Remember that to fire an spinal you must aim the whole ship, so having more tan one would not allow you to fire more than one ship (unless they are so kind as to position themselves with the exact angle).

I definitely don't like this one, IMHO it goes against the whole idea of spinal weaponry. ...

I was really thinking he was talking something like the Yamato concept - big mutha' gun in a big mutha' turret.

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2...o_2010___shot_06_by_jace_lethecus-d4v7nh5.png

Tried to do an image but it's big and I flunked resizing class.

 

[McPerth]

Well, if you are aiming the ship, with more than one spinal mount coaxially located, you could fire them at the same target, either simultaneously (sharing the same "to hit" roll), or at different times within the 20 minute turn. In HG2, you are in essence firing from a moving target at a moving target: firing at [however slightly] different times would increase your chance of getting time-based calculations right. In a way it's like shooting skeet with an auto shotgun (with no recoil): you want to "swing through" your target, but there's an instant when you should pull the trigger; you can miss by being either slow or fast.

Those coaxial spinals would be more like upgrading it, but you still would fire one target per turn, so its main use is forfeited anyway...

 

[McPerth]

Afterhoughts

Bay weapons don't get the +6 on the damage table for being factor 9 or less.

Some one suggested to allow bays to be joined (as turrets are) to give larger batteries (so forefeiting the +6 for bein rated 9-).

In any those cases, just beware the power of nuclear missiles on an A rated bay with its net -6 modifier (-6 for nukes, no +6 for rated 9-).

This happens with TL 16+ 50 dton bays in MT, as they are rated A+ (HG doesn't give us TL 16+ possibility). Maybe that's why Darrian TL 16 ships are so feared...

 

[Carlobrand]

Idea comes from a post elsewhere:

Beef up the particle spinal by giving it a damage bonus based on its factor: 6 for an A, increase one per factor or one per two factors after that. Means you have an honest-to-goodness arms race between the weapon and the armor tech, and even heavily armored foes respect a battlewagon with a PA spinal.

 

[mike wightman]

How about just doubling the number of hits after subtracting armour?

A T PA hitting an AV 15 ship would then get 8 hits on both damage tables.

 

[aramis]

How about just doubling the number of hits after subtracting armour?

A T PA hitting an AV 15 ship would then get 8 hits on both damage tables.

And an A PA still gets ignored.

 

[mike wightman]

As it should be for an armoured hull.

 

[Carlobrand]

As it should be for an armoured hull.

Point of the thread is to look for ways to tweak High Guard. Am I hearing that if I pump 250 billion joules into a black globe through my spinal particle accelerator, I can pump ten times as much power into a black globe as a nuke can pump in, but if I hit a factor 15 hull, I am accomplishing nothing more than the nuke might have accomplished?