TL=8 Batteries

[casquilho]

Thank you for the additional info.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Headline:
The Australian Energy Market Operator says that by 2040, households will consume less electricity than they actually produce.
Tony Seba predicted this ... and it's happening.

That's one of California's power system tricks: The cheapest source of new net power capacity is from reducing existing power demand through increased efficiency.

The least expensive power plant is the one you didn't need to build.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The least expensive power plant is the one you didn't need to build.

Quote:
The Best Part Is No Part.

 

[Marcatlas]

That's one of California's power system tricks: The cheapest source of new net power capacity is from reducing existing power demand through increased efficiency.

The least expensive power plant is the one you didn't need to build.

Exactly. Just have everyone live in monolithic dome homes. Use 50% of the power to heat/cool. Earthquake proof, fireproof, hurricane proof, tornado proof, no maintenance, lasts for 2,000 years. You know how much money would be saved in that?

 

[atpollard]

I work in A/E (Architecture/Engineering) and we have seen dramatic increases in minimum energy performance for new construction (think of the improvements from Incandescent Bulbs to LED applied to things like AC / appliances / windows / insulation). I wonder how much is Homes generating more and how much is homes using less. I question the impact of "all electric" on that equation when we start to apply it in places like Ohio and Illinois and New York where Gas Heating is critical and solar will be less efficient (just because of weather).

Fortunately, I live in Florida ... so we have our own problems to worry about and SOLAR is not one of them. (except for my personal house where the small gables face south and the large roof faces north - the sun is still in the south).

 

[Spinward Flow]

I wonder how much is Homes generating more and how much is homes using less.

It's a bit of both, really.

I question the impact of "all electric" on that equation when we start to apply it in places like Ohio and Illinois and New York where Gas Heating is critical and solar will be less efficient (just because of weather).

Or New England.
The "yield" may not be quite as favorable as in the Sun Belt, but it's still going to be "higher than nothing" would be.

On the subject of Gas Heating (and stoves in kitchens), it has been discovered that natural gas is not as clean and safe for indoor use as once thought. For one thing, the combustion of natural gas (in homes) tends to produce aromatic hydrocarbons (think Benzene C₆H₆ and the like) which can linger in indoor air for HOURS ... which can have "side effects" on health after prolonged exposure in the course of ordinary daily living, especially when it seeps into furnishings.

The thing that REALLY needs to be replaced is fuel oil burning furnaces in the NE states used for winter heating. That stuff has GOT TO GO!

I work in A/E (Architecture/Engineering) and we have seen dramatic increases in minimum energy performance for new construction (think of the improvements from Incandescent Bulbs to LED applied to things like AC / appliances / windows / insulation).

Fun thing is that solar "stuff" is getting SO CHEAP these days that it can start being used for load bearing building structure, not just some aftermarket add-on you do post-construction.

Since you work in the industry, this video posted 4 months ago may be of interest to you, @atpollard ...

 

[atpollard]

Since you work in the industry, this video posted 4 months ago may be of interest to you, @atpollard ...

Vertical SOLAR is a GREAT idea. I can think of so many applications right now. The fly in THAT ointment is the growing wind-load requirements. In South Florida, a vertical glass opening (window or door) needs to withstand an 80 mph impact by an 8' 2x4. The word in the industry is NYC is only one Hurricane away from that sort of requirement reaching up the entire Eastern Seaboard. The price of that solar panel will increase significantly when it needs to survive a 140 MPH wind and a Missile Impact test. (The central states have Tornado Impacts creating similar criteria).

It is certainly DOABLE (windows already do it) ... it just comes at a real cost [like everything else mandated]. A $100,000 home is now closer to $500,000 due to increased performance. That impacts affordability of home ownership and in our area has seen renters on the rise. It will broaden the gap between "haves" and "have nots" rather than shrink it. That "unintended consequence" is just going to be a reality. Some of the cultural instability we see is that shift playing itself out.

I do not have a cure for the shrinking "middle class" ... I just recognize the symptoms and causes everywhere. When we build AUTO DEALERSHIPS, the largest or fastest growing are Hyundai and the Exotics [Lamborghini, Bentley, Jaguar, Mercedes].

 

[warwizard]

I am currently looking at three things I can do to improve my winter production for my solar panels:
#1) Cut down all the trees that shade my panels during 11 AM and 1 PM on winter solstice. Pro: increase the amount of light each panel gets. Con: I am balance impaired and this makes operating a chainsaw somewhat dangerous.
#2) Add an additional two batteries. Pro: This lets me charge at my full rate of 14.4 kW/h as each battery allows about 2.5 kW/h charging rate. Gain an additional 30kW/h in usable storage, extending my time between sunny days. Con: Cost is about $8k plus shipping. Without doing #1 or #3 at the same time, the solar infusion at winter solstice will not exceed 10kW/h.
#3) Obtain outdoor projector screens that can be positioned to reflect lignt onto the panels, and quickly erected and rolled up or rolled down. Pro gain perhaps 10% increased solar infusion. Con: Need to combine with #1 to get the most effect. Cost is about $3k. Monitor the charging rate to see if #2 is needed, but by then too late to get batteries shipped in.
Data: 61.89°N + 24.5 degrees= 86.39 degrees. Grazing angle to the sun at winter solstice is 3.61 degrees. Minimal facing of the panels is 20 degrees above the horison, so off facing the sun by 16.39 degrees. The automated systems face due East at night, 60 degrees off of facing the first light at winter solstice, requiring time and power to change to facing the sun. I have elected to lock the panels down to due South so during 11 AM to 1 PM the panels are only 15 degrees maximum from pointing at the sun.

 

[Grav_Moped]

On the subject of Gas Heating (and stoves in kitchens), it has been discovered that natural gas is not as clean and safe for indoor use as once thought. For one thing, the combustion of natural gas (in homes) tends to produce aromatic hydrocarbons (think Benzene C6H6 and the like) which can linger in indoor air for HOURS ... which can have "side effects" on health after prolonged exposure in the course of ordinary daily living, especially when it seeps into furnishings.

Here's the thing: back in the day, it was much less of an issue, because construction standards of the time yeilded drafty houses.

Then you get modern standards for insulation and efficiency, and fumes start to build up instead of leaking away through the gaps...

A similar issue (I've seen it in college buildings, but I'm sure it's not uncommon) is in buildings that were originally built without air conditioning, with high ceilings, doors to the outside, and transom windows. Retrofit them for air conditioning decades later, and it's less efficient than it could have been (and occasionally almost completely ineffective).

 

[Spinward Flow]

 

[Spinward Flow]

Choose logically. Solar at ground level isn't a viable base load source.

Still non-competitive with nuc and others.

So? That's has nothing to do with physics and reality. That is a manipulated market. Not a free market. Both places BAN nuc power.

Let’s focus more on the IDEAS and less on the other PERSON, thanks.

Huh.

No comment necessary.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Huh.
Who'da thunk it?

 

[atpollard]

https://ecpmlangues.unistra.fr/civilization/geography/maps/us-population-density-2021.png
Ok, so THIS map shows where the PEOPLE live.

FLORIDA (where I live), Texas, Arizona and Southern California are all "golden children" when it comes to SOLAR-ELECTRIC power.
So how is the MASS OF HUMANITY in the Boston-Washington, DC Mega Corridor doing at meeting its power needs through SOLAR?
How about the MASSES in the Rust Belt of Ohio, Michigan, Indiana and Illinois? Are they close to SOLAR BREAK-EVEN?

What does Washington State do? Does the sun even SHINE there?

Is the plan to cover the southern half with panels and the northern half with wires and transfer the power?
SOLAR roofs feel like MICRO-ECONOMIC solutions to a MACRO-ECONOMIC problem.

[confession: I do not have sound at one of my computers, so I don't watch that many videos ... silent movies are boring.]

 

[warwizard]

What does Washington State do? Does the sun even SHINE there?

Well yes, I'm a bit further north than Washington state. Winter Solstice my angle to the sun is 3.61 degrees. I have to have clear lines of sight to the sun, so that means an elevated position along with 200+ yards of tree removal in a 60 degree arc centered on due South. Winter we average perhaps 1 1/2 to 2 days of direct sun in 10 days. I have to disable the sun tracking function for the 8 weeks around the winter solstice to save power. Charge a lead acid bank in the day then shut down the charge controller as the sun sets to save the 90W the charge controller uses, and plug in a 1200W or so DC to AC converter to the PbSO4 battery bank for lighting and microwave usage at night. Monitor the LiFePO4 bank to keep all the batteries at > 20% remaining. Use a generator if both banks are depleted. My Buddy propane heat as needed.

 

[Spinward Flow]

What does Washington State do? Does the sun even SHINE there?

The local star illuminates everything nearby.

High albedo due to cloud cover, though ... that's a different problem.

Is the plan to cover the southern half with panels and the northern half with wires and transfer the power?
SOLAR roofs feel like MICRO-ECONOMIC solutions to a MACRO-ECONOMIC problem.

That's a gross oversimplification ... but let me ask you this. How is that any different from fossil fuel extraction for energy? There are "mining fields" in particular places around the country, but those locations are not conveniently and evenly distributed geographically. So there is some import/export of fossil fuels going on that basically amounts to wells/mines in one state transporting fuels by pipeline or trains to other states (including across international borders, in some cases).

The only meaningful difference is that with electricity you "transmit" the energy using wires instead of pipelines/trains/trucks to move the energy from place to place. Additionally, the "dispatch" of electrical power can be done WAY FASTER than it can be done with physical energy sources like fossil fuels.

A better answer is that solar roofs get their foothold as a micro-economic phenomenon, but they can be aggregated into micro-grids which then plug into major grids to have a macro-economic impact (like you said). Because of the ... fungibility ... of electrical power, it can be stored or transmitted for use relatively simply (just add capital investment). The really disruptive element is that solar can work on a distributed basis (lots of small players contributing) rather than being something that ONLY works economically at massive scales in centralized generation facilities. That distributed generation rather than centralized generation is what the "old ways of thinking" about these things simply can't wrap their heads around.

The paradigm of HOW to generate energy is changing.
And we're alive to see it happen.

[confession: I do not have sound at one of my computers, so I don't watch that many videos ... silent movies are boring.]

Anime otaku have a well known fondness for subtitles.
Perhaps you could ... you know ... develop a new skill?

 

[atpollard]

That's a gross oversimplification

ABSOLUTELY … I specialize in those! (It is my GIFT).
However, it is generally effective at provoking a response.

 

[atpollard]

Anime otaku have a well known fondness for subtitles.
Perhaps you could ... you know ... develop a new skill?

I am working on LIP READING … but those darn Aussie accents.

 

[atpollard]

How is that any different from fossil fuel extraction for energy?

The strength of fossil fuels is their storage and transportability. Electricity is still less efficient to store and transport.
That is the STRENGTH of the distributed power generation (solar panels on every roof) over central power generation (like a Coal or Nuclear Plant). Losses along the transmission lines and lots of hard to get transformers.

I just see the success stories being lauded in places that favor solar (obviously) with less discussion about some very real problems of “what if” it snows or you have LOTS of cloud cover at the same months that you have life threatening cold (hello Chicago, Detroit, Columbus, Pennsylvania and New England).

As I said, it is possible the answer was in one of the videos … but the few I saw focused on Australia (which is not a high snow area).

 

[Spinward Flow]

I just see the success stories being lauded in places that favor solar (obviously) with less discussion about some very real problems of “what if” it snows or you have LOTS of cloud cover at the same months that you have life threatening cold (hello Chicago, Detroit, Columbus, Pennsylvania and New England).

Think of it this way.
The technology is getting developed in ways that help engineering and manufacturing move along the learning curve. The price of solar panels has dropped by like 93% in the last decade or so.

The first adopters are going to be the ones who will see the highest returns on investment (see: Sun Belt) ... but as the technology matures it will start moving into "less optimal" regions, like the ones you have identified, and continue to grow market share.

One of the things that people tend to forget is that stuff like "clouds" tend to be local phenomena. With a wide enough (geographically) grid system, if it's cloudy somewhere it's probably sunny somewhere else, creating opportunities for import/export arbitrage of energy. Just because a specific location is "solar poor" does NOT mean it is incapable of accessing solar power generated elsewhere.

Case in point ... England tends to be a "foggy/rainy island" that isn't exactly known for its sunshine. However, Morocco has PLENTY of sunlight! So the UK is building a solar farm in Morocco and a high voltage DC connector cable to link that solar power into the UK power grid even when "the weather is bad" in the UK, because it's probably going to be sunny in Morocco.

A similar international transmission line for solar energy export is being set up in Australia to send power to Singapore(?).



Also, you don't need to "pave the ENTIRE world in solar panels" in order to generate enough energy to match the CURRENT demand for energy on a global scale. I think the actual figure is something like 1% of global land area would be enough to generate sufficient power for the ENTIRE world, at current solar panel efficiency rates. To put it mildly, the world "wastes" more than that amount of land area on golf courses, right now (including in places where golf courses are ecologically unsustainable). So it's a matter of "pick your priorities" for how you want to do things.

Better yet, if "every house" in any given country (or state) had solar panels on their roof and batteries, MOST (if not all?) of the energy demand for that country (or state) would be produced without needing to dedicate "extra land" to the generation of energy for home, businesses and industry.

In other words, it's kind of amazing how much "land area" that solar could be deployed on (residential rooftops) is currently being "wasted" rather than exploited for energy generation. So in terms of "area needed" ... there's plenty of "room" for more solar without needing to conquer the countryside.



And then there's the field of Agrovoltaics, combining farming and solar, where farmers are starting to realize that putting solar panels in their fields reduces water consumption, produces better harvest yields AND they can get paid for the electricity that their land produces. Win-win-win for farmers. Just needs some more developments in tools, tech manuals and techniques before Agrovoltaics starts revolutionizing the farming industry for field crops and open pasture animal husbandry (farm animals appreciate the SHADE created by the solar panels, who knew?).

 

[Spinward Flow]

less discussion about some very real problems of “what if” it snows or you have LOTS of cloud cover at the same months that you have life threatening cold (hello Chicago, Detroit, Columbus, Pennsylvania and New England).

As I said, it is possible the answer was in one of the videos … but the few I saw focused on Australia (which is not a high snow area).

Funny you should mention that.

Sam Evans, the Electric Viking, lives in Newcastle Australia (where winter is ending with spring coming up) and he got new solar installed on his roof. Yesterday is rained hard over his house and he was curious what kind of power generation he would get out of his new solar panels when the weather was not only cloudy but raining heavily.

Spoiler alert: he was STILL able to power his house with solar during heavy rain.

The video is about the sighting of a Tesla Robotaxi (and ugly as SIN from the pictures), but at the start he talks about how it rained almost all day and his new solar system performed so much better than he had been expecting. I'm including a jump in the link to 43 seconds into the video where he starts talking about how well his new solar panels work while his house is getting rained on.

Think that might be relevant to places like Washington State (as you were curious to know about)?
Maybe ...