TL equipment changes in the 3I?

[mike wightman]

Regina isn't the most important world - it's the noble family that happens to call it home that is important.

There are higher TL worlds within the Regina subsector, better economies etc. And yet Regina remains capital.

And I refuse to allow Regina to be anything but TL10 prior to the end of the FFW. Retcons are all well and good but I don't think it was done deliberately. There is too much canon which lists Regina as TL10 prior to SMC.

 

[rancke]

Regina isn't the most important world - it's the noble family that happens to call it home that is important.

Regina was the subsector capital for three and a half century before Caranda Aledon became the Duke of Regina. It has been the most important world in the subsector for most of a millenium. Economically Efate has overtaken it, but politically it remains the center of the subsector and of the duchy.

And I refuse to allow Regina to be anything but TL10 prior to the end of the FFW.

It's not up to you (or me), though.

Retcons are all well and good but I don't think it was done deliberately.

I think it was, but that's profoundly irrelevant. It was kept deliberately. That's just the way it is.

There is too much canon which lists Regina as TL10 prior to SMC.

<cut and paste>

"TPTB could have chosen to explain the change by saying that Regina was TL10 in 1107 and jumped two TLs in four years, but as it happens, they chose instead to retcon Regina's tech level in 1107 (and before) to TL12. I don't quite see the wiggle room here. No matter how many times pre-1985 canon material is referenced, the retcon remains." [Me]​

Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Found it.

High Guard 1 page 21
'the TL of a ship may not be more than 3 greater than the TL of the shipyard.
All higher TL equipment must be imported, at 50% surcharge'

 

[mike wightman]

Regina was the subsector capital for three and a half century before Caranda Aledon became the Duke of Regina. It has been the most important world in the subsector for most of a millenium. Economically Efate has overtaken it, but politically it remains the center of the subsector and of the duchy.

It's the most important world politically due to the Imperial nobles who admin the subsector calling it home.
It is politically important, not economically.

Economically wise there are several worlds within Regina sub-sector which are more economically important.

It's not up to you (or me), though.

It is until they send me a new map for FFW

I think it was, but that's profoundly irrelevant. It was kept deliberately. That's just the way it is.

Kept by DGP, not GDW.

Scouts - 1983, gives Regina a TL of 10.

SMC - 1985 is where it jumps to 12.

If they are going to retcon it they could at least say it is a change during and after the FFW.

The quote above from HG1 shows Regina's shipyards could easily be TL13, all that happens is war economics changes roll out the higher TL stuff to the general population.

"TPTB could have chosen to explain the change by saying that Regina was TL10 in 1107 and jumped two TLs in four years, but as it happens, they chose instead to retcon Regina's tech level in 1107 (and before) to TL12. I don't quite see the wiggle room here. No matter how many times pre-1985 canon material is referenced, the retcon remains." [Me]​

Hans

And could be retconned again =) to preserve setting integrity.

 

[far-trader]

Found it.

Thanks Mike

Figures it would be HG1

 

[rancke]

Found it.

High Guard 1 page 21
'the TL of a ship may not be more than 3 greater than the TL of the shipyard.
All higher TL equipment must be imported, at 50% surcharge'

Interesting. So if Regina's TL was 10, it couldn't install a TL15 black globe (or a TL15 power plant for that matter) in its ships, but if it was 12, it could? Clear evidence, in other words, that Regina's tech level must be a minimum of 12 ih order to build a Kinunir.

Also installing an imported jump-4 drive would be 50% more expensive than building the ship at a TL13 shipyard.


Hans

 

[rancke]

If they are going to retcon it they could at least say it is a change during and after the FFW.

That wouldn't be a retcon, it would be a bad explanation, involving a jump of two tech levels in four years. Which is not credible, even in a war, given the fact that few or no other worlds had tech level changes from 1105 to 1120.

And as I've pointed out a couple of times already, they could have chosen to explain it that way, but they didn't.

The quote above from HG1 shows Regina's shipyards could easily be TL13, all that happens is war economics changes roll out the higher TL stuff to the general population.

No, it shows that a TL10 world can build TL13 ships if it imports the components from a TL13 world. (If one ignores the changes to this rule in HG2, which I'm quite prepared to do, but others might not).

And could be retconned again =) to preserve setting integrity.

But until and unless they do, Regina's tech level is 12.

Incidentally, what does this mass of pre-1985 material about Regina amount to? A one-page amber zone set on Regina with practically no world information and half a dozen copies of the same one-page UWP listing for Regina subsector with no additional information about Regina.

Is there a writeup of Regina detailing it in all it's TL10 glory somewhere? Not that I'm aware of. Compared to some of the big MT retcons, this one is profoundly insignificant.


Hans

 

[rancke]

It is until they send me a new map for FFW

Surely once you've made all the other changes to the FFW map and countermix needed to update it, changing Regina's TL from 10 to 12 would be the least of it. I'm thinking primarily of the multiple changes in planetary defenses necessitated by the introduction of the population multiplier.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Found it.

High Guard 1 page 21
'the TL of a ship may not be more than 3 greater than the TL of the shipyard.
All higher TL equipment must be imported, at 50% surcharge'

I guess the versoin of HG I have is not the first.

In mine, page 20:

'Technological level is important in the design of a ship because it governs where the ship may be produced, and how well the crew can operate and mantain it. The technological level of the building shipyard determines the technological level of the ship being constructed (a class A starport on a tech level 14 world constructs a tech level 14 ship). Equipment and components of a starship may(*) always be be equal or less than the ship's tech level.'

(*) Note (mine, not in the rules): the rules say may, I guess it should be must.

 

[rancke]

I guess the versoin of HG I have is not the first.

In mine, page 20:

'Technological level is important in the design of a ship because it governs where the ship may be produced, and how well the crew can operate and mantain it. The technological level of the building shipyard determines the technological level of the ship being constructed (a class A starport on a tech level 14 world constructs a tech level 14 ship). Equipment and components of a starship may(*) always be be equal or less than the ship's tech level.'

(*) Note (mine, not in the rules): the rules say may, I guess it should be must.

Yes, HG2 clearly (and presumably deliberately) changed the rule Mike quoted, but I didn't like to call him on that, because I think that in "reality" it would be possible, whenever the circumstances warranted it (i.e. rarely) to import and install higher level technology. It just has to be something that is worth the extra cost[*]. So the HG1 rule IMO makes more sense than the HG2 rule on the subject.

[*] Though taking that idea to its logical conclusion, every warship above a certain cost would have factor 9 computers...​

Likewise, it would probably be at least theoretically possible to install equipment more than three levels above the local TL, but it would be so mistake-prone that it would be very rarely attempted. (And going one level above would be more common (and cheaper) than going two levels above which in turn would be more common than going three levels above). As I've said before, rules inevitably simplifies reality. When a rule says something never happens, it may mean that it never happens, but odds are that it really means that it happens so rarely that it is below the resolution of the rules.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Yes, HG2 clearly (and presumably deliberately) changed the rule Mike quoted, but I didn't like to call him on that, because I think that in "reality" it would be possible, whenever the circumstances warranted it (i.e. rarely) to import and install higher level technology. It just has to be something that is worth the extra cost[*]. So the HG1 rule IMO makes more sense than the HG2 rule on the subject.

[*] Though taking that idea to its logical conclusion, every warship above a certain cost would have factor 9 computers...​

Likewise, it would probably be at least theoretically possible to install equipment more than three levels above the local TL, but it would be so mistake-prone that it would be very rarely attempted. (And going one level above would be more common (and cheaper) than going two levels above which in turn would be more common than going three levels above). As I've said before, rules inevitably simplifies reality. When a rule says something never happens, it may mean that it never happens, but odds are that it really means that it happens so rarely that it is below the resolution of the rules.

Tat's to say today's earth could assemble a ship TL 10-11 (depending on what TL you put today's earth today). I guess that would be not so easy, as probably we don't have the tools needed nor the expertise for our scientist and thechnicians to know what they aro doing.

About being expensiver as the TL grows, it should also be as th distance to the producer (planet with the needed TL) grows. In the case of Regina, the mearest TL 15 planet is Rhylanor (10 parsecs away). Probably on Bendor (TL 12, at 3 parsecs of Glisten) shouls also be cheapest than in Regina just for this reason. (See that I allow for this post Regina as TL12 and higer TL being possible to assemble, which I personally am not sure about if I agree or not).

 

[aramis]

Remember Sup 3 is explained as "old data" in A0... (which carries the same data set for the most part).

PC's are sent to do a revision survey in A0... in 1101 or so.

Therefore, it's over 40 years, not 2.

 

[mike wightman]

Interesting. So if Regina's TL was 10, it couldn't install a TL15 black globe (or a TL15 power plant for that matter) in its ships, but if it was 12, it could? Clear evidence, in other words, that Regina's tech level must be a minimum of 12 ih order to build a Kinunir.

Also installing an imported jump-4 drive would be 50% more expensive than building the ship at a TL13 shipyard.


Hans

It can import them from Efate

Efate is TL 13 so its shipyards can go all the way to 15 - Regina can import at 50% surcharge.

 

[mike wightman]

Incidentally, what does this mass of pre-1985 material about Regina amount to? A one-page amber zone set on Regina with practically no world information and half a dozen copies of the same one-page UWP listing for Regina subsector with no additional information about Regina.

Is there a writeup of Regina detailing it in all it's TL10 glory somewhere? Not that I'm aware of. Compared to some of the big MT retcons, this one is profoundly insignificant.


Hans

LBB6 has the full Regina system.
FFW
S:3
A1-3
will find more once I'm at home.

 

[mike wightman]

Surely once you've made all the other changes to the FFW map and countermix needed to update it, changing Regina's TL from 10 to 12 would be the least of it. I'm thinking primarily of the multiple changes in planetary defenses necessitated by the introduction of the population multiplier.


Hans

Pop multipliers scale everything up. if everything scales by the same amount it cancels - there easy

 

[mike wightman]

Yes, HG2 clearly (and presumably deliberately) changed the rule Mike quoted, but I didn't like to call him on that, because I think that in "reality" it would be possible, whenever the circumstances warranted it (i.e. rarely) to import and install higher level technology. It just has to be something that is worth the extra cost[*]. So the HG1 rule IMO makes more sense than the HG2 rule on the subject.

[*] Though taking that idea to its logical conclusion, every warship above a certain cost would have factor 9 computers...​

Likewise, it would probably be at least theoretically possible to install equipment more than three levels above the local TL, but it would be so mistake-prone that it would be very rarely attempted. (And going one level above would be more common (and cheaper) than going two levels above which in turn would be more common than going three levels above). As I've said before, rules inevitably simplifies reality. When a rule says something never happens, it may mean that it never happens, but odds are that it really means that it happens so rarely that it is below the resolution of the rules.


Hans

The Traveller Adventure gives us a canonical example of the IN shipping high tech components to be installed elsewhere - namely the meson guns that are hijacked.

 

[mike wightman]

Tat's to say today's earth could assemble a ship TL 10-11 (depending on what TL you put today's earth today). I guess that would be not so easy, as probably we don't have the tools needed nor the expertise for our scientist and thechnicians to know what they aro doing.

About being expensiver as the TL grows, it should also be as th distance to the producer (planet with the needed TL) grows. In the case of Regina, the mearest TL 15 planet is Rhylanor (10 parsecs away). Probably on Bendor (TL 12, at 3 parsecs of Glisten) shouls also be cheapest than in Regina just for this reason. (See that I allow for this post Regina as TL12 and higer TL being possible to assemble, which I personally am not sure about if I agree or not).

Not quite.

The Imperium is TL15 and that TL15 database is accessible. A world may only be only TL10 but it can obtain TL15 designs etc. because the infrastructure and knowledge base is understood.

The Imperium would struggle to assemble a TL16 warship from recovered Darrian tech, TL17 would be almost impossible and don't even think about TL18.

 

[mike wightman]

Remember Sup 3 is explained as "old data" in A0... (which carries the same data set for the most part).

PC's are sent to do a revision survey in A0... in 1101 or so.

Therefore, it's over 40 years, not 2.

Nope - the data in the appendix is what they find out when they do their survey.

 

[McPerth]

Not quite.

The Imperium is TL15 and that TL15 database is accessible. A world may only be only TL10 but it can obtain TL15 designs etc. because the infrastructure and knowledge base is understood.

The Imperium would struggle to assemble a TL16 warship from recovered Darrian tech, TL17 would be almost impossible and don't even think about TL18.

But a TL 7 planet still has its techinicians and infrastructure at TL 7, so it would have problems to assemble a TL 10 ship...

And that takes us to another paradox...

Let's imagine a planet UPP A868785-7 (a one rolled on the thech roll)...

It has starport A, so it can build starships...

It has TL 7, so it cannot build jump drives...

I know some canon gives a minimum TL in the starport area, independent of the plant's TL, but HG says that the starships built in one planet are of its TL.

I guess this is the reason to allow (in HG1) to build starships some TLs above the plant's.

 

[mike wightman]

But it's a TL7 world within a TL15 empire - so yes importing the gear makes sense.

I would personally reinstate the rule from HG 1.

I'm not sure it was overwritten, just ommited