TL questions

[JAFARR]

I have a few TL related question. I am looking for canon based answers if anyone has them, but I also welcome comments on how one might actually use the ideas even if it is not canon.

1. I seem to recall reading that a certain %age of a ship's systems can be 1 TL higher than the ship's design TL, but I have not been able to locate any such rule. If this is true, I would assume that the shipyard that builds the ship would have to be at least 1 TL higher than design TL. Also would that %age be based on volume or cost?

2. Can a ship be upgraded in TL or have some systems upgraded in TL at some time after it is built?

For both the questions above, I was thinking of a TL 12 ship with a TL 13 to 15 power plant.

Last question is about this forum. How do you do the links to other discussions or even other sites that have relevant material to the discussion?

 

[tjoneslo]

I'm not aware of any such rule that limits the percentage of system systems to one TL or another. It's generally been assumed that a TLx ship has all components of TLx, but there is no restriction on replacing components.

I think the Trillion Credit Squadron had some rules for CT about replacing components in your fleet. But generally it was cheaper build a new ship rather than continually upgrade, since the replacement components cost more than ones for a new ship. The reason is the cost difference from the TLs. That is a TL15 power plant in TL12 credits is very, very expensive.

The TL12 ship with an advanced powwer plant is fine. If you are willing to pay the cost.

Look at the URL tag

 

[JAFARR]

I don't have TCS any more. Any one know where I might be able to find those rules?

Please elaborate on URL tag bit.

Thanks

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Andy,
First, you'll need two windows open normally to do this (at least, easily). In one window, go to the post on the thread you want to link. In the other, go to the thread where you want to post your reply and click on Full Reply Form.

If you want a specific post in the thread, right-click on the little note/pin symbol on the left-top of the post, and copy that link (depends on browser and how you like to do things). For the whole thread, just copy the entire address in your browser.

In the window where you have the reply form, click the URL button, and paste in the address you copied, then click OK. Put in the words you would like to show in the link, and click OK again. (BTW, some people would paste the link into the second window also so you would see the actual address, like this: http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000943;p=1#000002)

HTH

 

[JAFARR]

Ok, So if I wanted a link on this page to my post about a ship in my posting in the pawn shop discussion, I would say: Click Here!

Lets see if I got it right>

 

[JAFARR]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
Ok, So if I wanted a link on this page to my post about a ship in my posting in the pawn shop discussion, I would say: Click Here!

Lets see if I got it right;

Edited here: Seems as if I got the whole page, not just the specific reply I was trying for.
How do I limit it to just the one entry?
Thanks for the help.

 

[far-trader]

Yep that's all there is to the basics Andy.

A couple other tips:

I usually also imbed the BOLD tags for the link, just add SQUARE BRACKETS around a "B" at the start and a "/B" at the end, of the text you use to lable your url. I find it makes it easier to see that it's a clickable link if you want to name it something. See below.

And, as you wanted to link to a specific post in that thread you can by changing the url a little. This is specfic to CotI posts. In this case I think the post you wanted was the 8th one down on that page. So all you have to do is add "#000022" right after the "p=2" and when you click the link it'll go right to your post on the ship, voila...

Andy's Post

But how do you know it's post #000022 in that thread? If you hold your mouse over the "quote reply" button or the "edit" button and your browser shows the url you'll see it there. If not, just open the post you want to link in it's own tab or window and read or copy the url from there. Going direct to the post you want to reference on the page is the best way.

Oh, if you want to look at how something is done in a post, like the link above, just click the "reply quote" and the post will be shown in all it's raw format so you can see what's being done.

 

[Whipsnade]

Andy,

I'm away from may books at the moment. but there's no real prohibiton on 'Mix & Match' TLs concerning player-sclae ships. Your Tl12 Beowlulf can easilt tote a TL15 laser for instance.

A:5 TCS does introduce certain restrictions concerning upgrades wiht an eye towards closing 'munchkin holes'. One major hurdle is that big items like drives, spinal mounts, and the like can't have their tonnage changed. Tjoneslo has it right when he suggests it's easier to build new ships than upgrade old ones.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[JAFARR]

Thanks to all for the help with links. Maybe these instructions could be made into one of those "sticky notes" at the top of some forum so others can see them without having to ask.

Back to the TL bit for a moment. I know that on ocasion the US Navy has re-conditioned a mothballed ship because it was cheaper than starting from scratch. If I was to find a hull that had major damage to it's drives, could I have the drives replaced? If so, according to Bill's post just above, must I keep the tonage the same or could I use a smaller unit of a higher TL and convert the excess to say fuel tankage?

If I install a TL 13 laser turret on a TL 12 ship, do I get the bonus to the weapon factor?

 

[far-trader]

In MTU I'd say you're stuck with only putting drives in the drives section (a throwback to CT standard hulls). So if you had a hull fitted with Jump, Maneuver, and/or Powerplant totalling 25tons you could replace them with any new arrangement that came to no more than 25tons. Anything less than 25tons could not be safely used for any other purpose (though it might not stop a merchie from cramming some packages in, or a scout from setting up a still in, an empty corner tucked behind the jump drive

)

Of course I can see very reasonable points for not being able to change the absolute perfomance of any drive element too:

The Jump drive performance might be built to only manage, through the hull design, the orginal maximum jump so you couldn't install one with more range.

The Maneuver drive performance might likewise be unalterable due to the hull only being built to safely handle the originally rated performance stresses.

The Powerplant might be limited by only having conduits able to handle the original maximum output. So even with more power available you would be limited to only being able to use the lower original power at any point in the ship, at least outside of the drives section. Powerplant upgrades might be the only one that isn't a real problem in a refit. And I do often design my ships with an eye towards upgrading the Powerplant at higher TLs but ONLY by swapping in one of the same dimensions.

But that's just my take on the issue, nothing canonical about it except perhaps coincidentally.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
If I install a TL 13 laser turret on a TL 12 ship, do I get the bonus to the weapon factor?

I would have to say... maybe

The TL bonus could be totally unrelated to the weapon and derived from the higher TL of the ship itself. Specifically the bridge and electronics.

Why? Because everything else about the weapon is identical. The size, the cost, the power, all the same.

Sure you could make an argument for it being the weapon itself, and that's how I have looked at it at times. In those cases though I tend to go with my Civilian, Paramilitary, Military breakdown of available TL for shipbuilding. Civilians are limited to TL12, Paramilitary are allowed up to TL14, and only the Military are allowed TL15. So that merchie sporting a TL13 laser is either well-connected (like a Q-ship) or illegal

 

[Antony]

The mix and match TLs was certainly in MT, take a look at the Voroshilef class battleship, basically a TL13 vessel which had had its power plant changed to a TL15 model and which was fitted with a TL16 Spinal Disintegrator mount.

With this and the data for the version in the game Battlerider it should be possible to reverse the refits back to the vessel as first built.

 

[far-trader]

Oh yeah it's been done, even earlier I think. And I'm not saying it couldn't be done, just that it's not how I'd do it. I mean would you take a vintage '60's VW Beetle and try to cram a V8 engine from a 2005 Dodge Ram into it? And not expect to have to do a LOT of work just so the thing didn't turn into a pretzel the first time you tromped the gas pedal?

OK, an extreme example, but not so extreme as to be impossible. True story, a friend in high-school (a zillion years ago) put a huge engine (big block V8 I think) in his little car (a Pinto? something like that, I don't recall for sure). Out to the highway for a quick 1/4 mile tire smoke test run. Drops his foot on the gas and goes... nowhere fast. Engine had so much torque it twisted the (original) drive shaft into a spiral and right off. End of story.

Why can I see the same thing happening to PC's and their ship...

"Quick Cap, we need to use the full new M-drive power to blast outta here!"

"Right, bring the Powerplant up to full, prepare for 6G!"

...the fusion reactor comes to life and starts sending three times the power the old circuits are rated for through the converted type A. Electricity arcs from panels in explosive lightning bolts, seveal systems fry but the maneuver drive is connected directly and power surges through it rocketing it at 6Gs, right out of the drives section having torn loose from the under-rated hull mountings, and continuing on inertia through the cargo hold, and the bridge, exiting the front of the ship in a cloud of debris...

 

[mike wightman]

A quote from first edition High Guard:

The TL of the world holding the shipyard governs the construction capabilities: the TL of a ship may not be more than 3 higher than the TL of the shipyard. All higher TL equipment must be imported, at 50% surcharge.

So Regina could build those Kinunirs after all

Note that T20 also allows shipping in construction components from other worlds.

 

[JAFARR]

So if I had a Merchant constructed at say Mora to TL 15 standards I could in theory equip it with a TL 17 anti-matter power plant if I paid a 50% surcharge. Question now is could I find fuel to refuel it every year without a big hassle or at least some major route planing? Also would I have to pay the 50% extra for fuel each time?

 

[The Oz]

TCS says that you cannot increase the size of any drive or powerplant or spinal mount, and you cannot add any new launch facilities. You also cannot change the hull armor or configuration, or the number or size of weapons bays.

So you can change to a drive/spinal mount of equal or smaller size, which implies that going from a TL-12 powerplant to a TL-15 powerplant is possible. You could even keep the powerplant the same size and increase output (although this would require more PP fuel).

 

[archhealer]

Yeah, I recently dealt with this precise issue in an adventure I'm working on. I do it this way, for both vehicles and starships:

Starships: May always install a smaller device of the same type. Weapons, drives, power plants, etc. Not spinal mounts though; changing to one even a little different wuold require practically rebuilding the ship. Installing larger components depends on the ship; we look at the deckplans, and see where they might find space. If they want a larger power plant, and the power plant is mounted next to the cargo bay, and they want to move the wall to lessen cargo and add poewr, they can... for a price. I calculate the hull tonnage cost for the increase in space, and charge them for that much hull.

For vehicles, it works somewhat the same, with a notable exception: If you don't care about pressurizing the power plant compartment, than you can just cut holes in the body to in stall larger power plants, or weapons. Of course, I also insist that such alterations will slightly reduce the SI of the vehicle.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
So if I had a Merchant constructed at say Mora to TL 15 standards I could in theory equip it with a TL 17 anti-matter power plant if I paid a 50% surcharge. Question now is could I find fuel to refuel it every year without a big hassle or at least some major route planing? Also would I have to pay the 50% extra for fuel each time?

According to HG1, yes

Probably why the rule changed.

According to T20, there would have to be a TL17+ world nearby to trade with.

It does kind of make sense for those TL15 worlds to be selling their cheap power plants and other components to other worlds to assemble the final ships - it actually makes trading between worlds matter

 

[JAFARR]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Oh yeah it's been done, even earlier I think. And I'm not saying it couldn't be done, just that it's not how I'd do it. I mean would you take a vintage '60's VW Beetle and try to cram a V8 engine from a 2005 Dodge Ram into it? And not expect to have to do a LOT of work just so the thing didn't turn into a pretzel the first time you tromped the gas pedal?

OK, an extreme example, but not so extreme as to be impossible. True story, a friend in high-school (a zillion years ago) put a huge engine (big block V8 I think) in his little car (a Pinto? something like that, I don't recall for sure). Out to the highway for a quick 1/4 mile tire smoke test run. Drops his foot on the gas and goes... nowhere fast. Engine had so much torque it twisted the (original) drive shaft into a spiral and right off. End of story.

Why can I see the same thing happening to PC's and their ship...

"Quick Cap, we need to use the full new M-drive power to blast outta here!"

"Right, bring the Powerplant up to full, prepare for 6G!"

...the fusion reactor comes to life and starts sending three times the power the old circuits are rated for through the converted type A. Electricity arcs from panels in explosive lightning bolts, seveal systems fry but the maneuver drive is connected directly and power surges through it rocketing it at 6Gs, right out of the drives section having torn loose from the under-rated hull mountings, and continuing on inertia through the cargo hold, and the bridge, exiting the front of the ship in a cloud of debris...

Dan, people have been hot-rodding cars for as long as there have been cars to hot rod. It seems to be a facet of human nature to get a little bit more out of a bit of machinery than it was designed to put out. That's where we get the practice of overclocking computers, etc. Your friend was not a mechanical engineer or even a thoughtful mechanic (even though his experience may have moved him in that direction). True, you don't put a aircraft carrier engine [in actuallity a steam turbine] in a destroyer without also replacing the propeller shaft and propeller as well; if you can fit it in at all. However you can replace it with a newer, higher pressure turbine. You may also have to replace the boiler and piping with newer ones in order to produce steam at a high enough pressure to operate the newer turbine. You may also have to replace the propeller and shaft as above or you may even be able to just replace the propeller with one of a more efficent design and not even need to to change anything else. My point is that there is a big difference between a high school kid who is good with tools shoehorning a bigger engine into a car and an engineering team evaluating a ship for modifying.

 

[JAFARR]

Let's summerize:

1. There are limited provisions for remodeling ships.
2. There extra costs associated with remodeling ships.
3. Components can be of higher TL than the basic ship, but we proberly should assume that there are some limitations based on the avability of those components.
4. IYTU or IMTU we can decide what is reasonable, but, IOTU canon is unclear as to what is allowed along these lines.

Have I missed anything?