TL15 as Maximum Imperial Tech Level

[RossWinn]

In the OTU generally TL15 is the highest possible technology. It has also been mentioned before that there are small areas, like Capital, where TL16 is possible. However nowhere do I recall that TL15 is prevalent at the FLEET level and that there are wide areas across the Imperium, and even within the Core, that TL15 is not supportable by infrastructure. AS I always understood it the Imperium generally operated at TL12-13 and higher TL is rare. Am I correct in this supposition?
It just seems logical that without a wide and sector-spanning TL15 infrastructure this is generally unsupportable to have a TL15 fleet.

 

[kilemall]

In the OTU generally TL15 is the highest possible technology. It has also been mentioned before that there are small areas, like Capital, where TL16 is possible. However nowhere do I recall that TL15 is prevalent at the FLEET level and that there are wide areas across the Imperium, and even within the Core, that TL15 is not supportable by infrastructure. AS I always understood it the Imperium generally operated at TL12-13 and higher TL is rare. Am I correct in this supposition?
It just seems logical that without a wide and sector-spanning TL15 infrastructure this is generally unsupportable to have a TL15 fleet.

Depends on your definition of support.

Some say a A starport can support everything up to TL15. Others differentiate and point to HG TLs or drive letters tied to things like the LBB3 tech chart. Still others point to naval bases and depots as specifically supporting TL15 Imperial navy assets.

IMTU the letter drives can be repaired anywhere, built by the tech chart on worlds other then non-Ind and assembled with shipped in drives at A starports. Custom HG ships are tied to their originating yard’s TL and need that minimum for fixing.

I don’t do the 3I, but if I did the base/depot argument of TL15 support is persuasive.

 

[Quint]

Logical, yes, but evidently not canon. Evidently there is a difference between building a TL15 ship and maintaining a TL15 ship - the maintaining evidently doesn't require near the infrastructure that the building does. Alternately, all Navy and Scout Bases operate at TL15 independently of the planetary/system TL, IIRC that's the explanation most agreed upon these days.

D.

 

[Condottiere]

Full featured naval bases.

Starports, I'd say technological level twelve is guaranteed.

 

[mike wightman]

In the OTU generally TL15 is the highest possible technology.

Going by the rules as written you can generate worlds with a TL of 20. Within the Imperium there are several TL16 worlds and one pushing towards TL17.

It has also been mentioned before that there are small areas, like Capital, where TL16 is possible.

Capital is TL15, other than the world I already mentioned Imperial Research Stations are where the boundaries are pushed. Going by Marc's novel the IN often uses tech far in advance of the general civilian TL of the Imperium. You can bet that there are TL16 and possibly even TL17 IN and IISS vessels out there already.

However nowhere do I recall that TL15 is prevalent at the FLEET level and that there are wide areas across the Imperium, and even within the Core, that TL15 is not supportable by infrastructure.

Supplement s such as S:9 make it explicit that the IN fleets are TL15, which is shown in the counters in FFW. There are no IN regular fleets lower than TL15.

AS I always understood it the Imperium generally operated at TL12-13 and higher TL is rare. Am I correct in this supposition?

It's something theat Mongoose appears to push rather a lot. It is wrong. The IN is TL15, as are the Imperial Star Marines and the Imperial Army.

It just seems logical that without a wide and sector-spanning TL15 infrastructure this is generally unsupportable to have a TL15 fleet.

Every single IN base is TL15, regardless of world TL.

 

[casquilho]

Over and over again, the "canon" of Traveller was not followed between editions and even between books by different authors. We are constantly shown how the lore and rules both fail to support the "official canon", and contradictions can be found throughout the content. thus, why the 3i will always just be a messed-up pile of ideas I borrow from and never the core foundation for my games.

 

[RossWinn]

Logical, yes, but evidently not canon. Evidently there is a difference between building a TL15 ship and maintaining a TL15 ship - the maintaining evidently doesn't require near the infrastructure that the building does. Alternately, all Navy and Scout Bases operate at TL15 independently of the planetary/system TL, IIRC that's the explanation most agreed upon these days.

Okay, I'll bite. If this is the case, then why aren't all Imperial Navy ships designed and built at TL15?

 

[Dragoner]

The Navy in my ATU has support vessels; TL for starports is local infrastructure, which is why TL 12 and above is rare for civillian craft.

 

[Spinward Flow]

which is why TL 12 and above is rare for civillian craft.

Possible? Sure.
Commonplace? Not so much.

TL for starports is local infrastructure

I personally prefer this interpretation, that world TL dictates what local industries/suppliers can fabricate/have on hand/make available with no delays. Helps "keep things honest" in ways that starports stocked with infinite quantities of EVERYTHING that YOUR starship NEEDS (just pony up the cash) does not.

If this is the case, then why aren't all Imperial Navy ships designed and built at TL15?

Because not everything "needs" to be TL=15.
Military combatants do (because model/9fib computer or GTFO) but a lot of support craft and auxiliaries can get by "just fine" with TL=14- designs and classes. Some ship classes, such as the Gazelle, are basically "beat cops" rather than military (relevant) combatants meant to go to war. So the Gazelle class is TL=14 (minimum for the particle accelerator barbettes) and is intnded for (mostly) system defense/anti-pirate and cooperative patrols type work. It's more of a "low end hunter" starship than a "serious military combatant" type of design.

The Gazelle is to the IN what the Type-S Scout/Courier is to the IISS ... the class that does the "boring scut work" that needs doing so that more "important" fleet assets can take on the more prestigious roles.

 

[mike wightman]

Okay, I'll bite. If this is the case, then why aren't all Imperial Navy ships designed and built at TL15?

They are - see CT supplement 9. The only warships not TL15 are the few remaining TL14 relics (the Gazelle and the AHL). The TL15 Atlantic class heavy cruiser is described as an older design that they are replacing, so not only did the IN build a TL15 fleet, they are now building the second generation of TL15 warships.

The Sylean Navy was TL12 over 1100 years ago. Agent of the Imperium makes it clear that the IN and IISS were building ships of TL14 by the 400s and TL15 by the 700s. Was this the entire fleet? probably not, but military TL is definitely in advance of civilian TL.

 

[whulorigan]

Supplement s such as S:9 make it explicit that the IN fleets are TL15, which is shown in the counters in FFW. There are no IN regular fleets lower than TL15.

It's something that Mongoose appears to push rather a lot. It is wrong. The IN is TL15, as are the Imperial Star Marines and the Imperial Army.

Every single IN base is TL15, regardless of world TL.

Okay, I'll bite. If this is the case, then why aren't all Imperial Navy ships designed and built at TL15?

Also, the original structure of Naval Forces in the Imperium under Bk5: High Guard was Three-tiered:

1. Imperial Navy: Maintained by the Imperium proper at TL15 as the Imperium's primary warfighting and power-projection force. It would have had its own Imperial Naval Reserves, some on active duty, some in mothball which might be slightly older ships of lower technological capability.
2. Subsector Navies: Maintained by the local subsectors as "Provincial Navies" and under the overall political leadership of the local Subsector Duke (NOT Huscarle/personal Noble forces). Subsector Navies were local reserves created to free up the Imperial Navy from local defense and customs duties and piracy suppression. Such forces were likely built, equipped and maintained by the highest TL Shipyard in the Subsector, usually but not always the Subsector Capital (and possibly supplemented by some older decommissioned Imperial Navy war vessels). Subsector Navies were primarily Cruiser navies at best, but more typically were composed of Destroyers/Escorts/Frigates/Corvettes for routine operations. During wartime such forces became Imperialized and were assigned to numbered Reserve Fleets.
3. Planetary Navies: Individual Imperial member worlds were permitted to maintain their own navies as member-worlds of the Imperium for the purpose of self-defense within their home system and also to aid in the defense of their subsector and the Imperium during wartime (or to aid the Subsector navy in its role of piracy suppression and customs patrols. Most Planetary Navies are nothing more than a non-jump capable System Squadron, but some important worlds do maintain a Starfaring element. When operating outside their home system, they fall under the overall authority of the Subsector Navy. Planetary Navies are built and equipped at the TL of the homeworld, unless they requisition their squadron elements from out-system sources.

Some of this structure got altered through future iterations of the game (MT onward), but this seems to be the original intent in CT: Book 5/HG (and the one I like best, frankly). Both the 5FW and Rebellion would have seen the Subsector Navy becoming Imperialized and being assigned to numbered Reserve Fleets.

 

[aramis]

Over and over again, the "canon" of Traveller was not followed between editions and even between books by different authors. We are constantly shown how the lore and rules both fail to support the "official canon", and contradictions can be found throughout the content. thus, why the 3i will always just be a messed-up pile of ideas I borrow from and never the core foundation for my games.

The "Historical Drama Theory" helps... Each edition is the OTU as portrayed in a M2000 or later historical drama series...

 

[kilemall]

The "Historical Drama Theory" helps... Each edition is the OTU as portrayed in a M2000 or later historical drama series...

Like bad historical movies that take liberties or ignore facts for artistic license?

Roman movies are particularly egregious that way.

 

[Dragoner]

Because not everything "needs" to be TL=15.

Indeed not only to be seconded to local navies, also to be used in long range recon patrols so that if captured, one isn't handing over the latest tech to the enemy. Navies have a lot of duties where the highst TL ship of the line isn't needed.

 

[Enoki]

In the OTU generally TL15 is the highest possible technology. It has also been mentioned before that there are small areas, like Capital, where TL16 is possible. However nowhere do I recall that TL15 is prevalent at the FLEET level and that there are wide areas across the Imperium, and even within the Core, that TL15 is not supportable by infrastructure. AS I always understood it the Imperium generally operated at TL12-13 and higher TL is rare. Am I correct in this supposition?
It just seems logical that without a wide and sector-spanning TL15 infrastructure this is generally unsupportable to have a TL15 fleet.

I see it as nominal rather than some hard and fast line. That is, anything above 15 is limited to rare and that increases as the TL increases. I also see it as uneven across various aspects of technology. That is, there are areas where the nominal TL is much lower simply because there is no perceived need for higher technology driving improvements. In other areas, the imperial government limits technological development by law for political or other reasons.

The Emperor had a bad experience with invisible clothing, so now invisible clothing is banned and all research into it is illegal...

 

[Condottiere]

It would depend on whether he had a dad bod.

Or failed to make an impression.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Indeed not only to be seconded to local navies, also to be used in long range recon patrols so that if captured, one isn't handing over the latest tech to the enemy. Navies have a lot of duties where the highst TL ship of the line isn't needed.

I figure that this factor (high tech secrets) is probably one of the reasons why the Type-S Scout/Courier, which is ubiquitous to the point of being BORING, hasn't been "updated" into a shiny maximum tech level form. If one goes missing, the engineering/hardware is NO BIG LOSS (although the information/data onboard might be). From a "military industrial secrets" standpoint, the antiquated Type-S has no secrets left to give up from its now long since obsolete hardware and construction for any rival power or polity.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Nah. The Type S is just an artifact of LBB2 build rules. The smallest drives in the smallest hull -- economically non-viable, but gives J2/2G in a setting (i.e. pre-HG) where that's actually "ok" performance.

Everything else is (good and noble) distraction from its actual origin, especially under rulesets that do not spit out 100Td/J2/2G as the default minimum ship.

 

[mike wightman]

You missed the best bit, it is still TL9 in S:9 despite the change in jump TL paradigm introduced in HG, and the xboat is TL10 (jump 4 is TL13).

 

[Rupert]

I figure that this factor (high tech secrets) is probably one of the reasons why the Type-S Scout/Courier, which is ubiquitous to the point of being BORING, hasn't been "updated" into a shiny maximum tech level form. If one goes missing, the engineering/hardware is NO BIG LOSS (although the information/data onboard might be). From a "military industrial secrets" standpoint, the antiquated Type-S has no secrets left to give up from its now long since obsolete hardware and construction for any rival power or polity.

Funny thing - in MT it was TL15 and barely fits everything in the hull (3 DTons of cargo, only), and has to ignore the game's rule about crew sizes. So in MT the Type-S is only about a hundred years old (the Imperium hit TL-15 during the Rim War), and is leading edge even in the FFW and Rebellion.

This carries over into TNE, but at least there it has a 11.5 DTon cargo bay, so lower TL versions could be designed and still fit everything in by shrinking the cargo space (and if necessary the amount of manoeuvre fuel).