Not the group I game with.
Traveller 5 - With an update can it eclipse CT?
- Thread starter Spaceresearcher
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Not the group I game with.
daltoncalford
SOC-12
I have been playing a 2D6+attribute vs difficulty level. Difficulty starts at 0 and goes up by 5 per level.
ie 0, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 etc.
Average task is difficulty level 4 (target of 15) which is a roll of 8+ on 2d6 if your attribute is average (7).
Lack of skill or equipment increases the difficulty level as does hasty actions.
Your skill, taking extra time etc., level lowers the difficulty level.
Equipment, environment all give die roll bonuses.
Basic concept is for the average character, 8+ on 2d6 means you have succeeded.
I need to look at T5 with it's skill inflation but, if the skills are spread around so that the average skill is still below 5, then I may be able to use a good portion of the rest of the system.
But, I still think, T5 at it's core is flawed as too many assumptions are based around a die mechanic that is not going to be used by most.
I agree that there will not be One True Traveller. But I do think that a T5 release (cleaned, organized, edited, corrected, et al) could create a firm foundation for use in any Traveller Game -- as well as be approachable and friendly enough to draw in new players.
But hey, what do I know.
esampson
SOC-13
Standard
Honestly, for most games there was never any exact standard. Rules were modified all the time. Using AD&D as an example there were dozens of variations of critical hits and fumbles, some DMs allowed players maximum hit points at first level, and nearly everyone ignored the overly complicated rules for fighting bare handed.
I suppose that's why I don't look at the system and demand it work absolutely perfect out of the box. I'm use to just about every game system having some sort of rule or two that needs to be tweaked.
In the case of T5, yes, the rules need a really, really healthy 'tweaking' I think, but then I've always been a much bigger fan of Traveller for its systems for doing things like generating planets and systems, building starships, and for its setting.
Honestly, for most games there was never any exact standard. Rules were modified all the time. Using AD&D as an example there were dozens of variations of critical hits and fumbles, some DMs allowed players maximum hit points at first level, and nearly everyone ignored the overly complicated rules for fighting bare handed.
I suppose that's why I don't look at the system and demand it work absolutely perfect out of the box. I'm use to just about every game system having some sort of rule or two that needs to be tweaked.
In the case of T5, yes, the rules need a really, really healthy 'tweaking' I think, but then I've always been a much bigger fan of Traveller for its systems for doing things like generating planets and systems, building starships, and for its setting.
thalassogen
SOC-12
Derailing this thread even more...
I cannot understand all this talk about toolboxes and rules tweaking. If I buy a game I want to play it. If I have a specific way of gaming in mind I will search for a system that supports that kind of gaming. If tweaking were my passion I would have become a game designer. There are so many good systems out there that I can't see the value in trying to tweak a system that doesn't suit me or my group.
That said, I expect a toolbox to contain tools, sometimes several for the same task so that I might choose the one that yields the best result for me. There are good toolboxes out there (e.g. FATE, GURPS, Savage Worlds).
I cannot see those alternate tools in T5. And besides, I expected a game and not a toolbox. Nothing on Kickstarter said "Hey, you are getting a toolbox. Take what you want and keep to your favorite rules system for everything else." To me "ultimate" means "be-all-end-all" and "totally-encompassing". I read and heard "game", not "sourcebook".
So please stop selling us T5 as a toolbox of which to use only your favorite x to y pages. If it works for you (you is not a specific person here) - fine, but don't expect everyone else seeing the truth in this way of thinking.
That said, to answer the OP, no, I don't believe in T5 eclipsing CT, but I think it might become a close second if the game would be reworked in some parts and get a decent accessibility uplift for new players - that's the chance of the upcoming player's handbook.
I cannot understand all this talk about toolboxes and rules tweaking. If I buy a game I want to play it. If I have a specific way of gaming in mind I will search for a system that supports that kind of gaming. If tweaking were my passion I would have become a game designer. There are so many good systems out there that I can't see the value in trying to tweak a system that doesn't suit me or my group.
That said, I expect a toolbox to contain tools, sometimes several for the same task so that I might choose the one that yields the best result for me. There are good toolboxes out there (e.g. FATE, GURPS, Savage Worlds).
I cannot see those alternate tools in T5. And besides, I expected a game and not a toolbox. Nothing on Kickstarter said "Hey, you are getting a toolbox. Take what you want and keep to your favorite rules system for everything else." To me "ultimate" means "be-all-end-all" and "totally-encompassing". I read and heard "game", not "sourcebook".
So please stop selling us T5 as a toolbox of which to use only your favorite x to y pages. If it works for you (you is not a specific person here) - fine, but don't expect everyone else seeing the truth in this way of thinking.
That said, to answer the OP, no, I don't believe in T5 eclipsing CT, but I think it might become a close second if the game would be reworked in some parts and get a decent accessibility uplift for new players - that's the chance of the upcoming player's handbook.
[snip]
I feel that the book could be pulled apart, reedited, corrected, and reassembled into a good game. But if the last part of the quoted material, indeed, true... then I agree with you.
Which placed T5 in a sad state. I just looked, and there are a lot of copies of the T5 book available on eBay and other sales sites. This is not a good time for the Traveller Universe.
Yup, this is the thing: Regardless of what you think of the T5 content on its own merits, the material is very poorly organized, and very poorly edited.
And please, let us lay to rest the myth that everyone in the Sewing Circle loved the manuscript . I was a member of Sewing Circle. I did not love the manuscript. I said it had organizational problems, and I said so quite clearly and explicitly.
I believe that with some rigorous editing and reorganization, it could be a fine book. I am completely and utterly baffled by the decision to release it in its present form.
I'd have to disagree. T4/T5 are very similar to GURPS in its mechanics.
Both set attribute+'skill' as the target number that must be rolled under. The routine task in T4/T5 is often 2d6 which give an average of the typical average attribute value whereas GURPS' typical task uses 3d6 which gives an average value equal to the average attribute. GURPS is not so coarse grained.
The difference is that where GURPS increases difficulty by subtracting a referee-determined value from the target number, T4/T5 moves this over to the dice-roll side of the equation by adding a random number averaging 3.5 per level of difficulty. Conceptually, they are the same.
The This-is-hard rule seems to exists to balance attributes/skills in a manner palatable to Traveller CG; GURPS' methods of character creation and advancement are different which balances play out. Personally, I feel the This-is-hard rule is a bit of a kludge.
There really aren't that many reasonable dice mechanics.
Actually, I think finding some sort of standard concerning damage should be a priority, even if only to allow easy conversions.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I'd like to see T5 succeed, but I think the game is already done. All the ugly rules and unanswered questions killed it. Stillborn. Too many have already made their decision against it.
There are a few converts, like yourself, who like the game. But, I think T5 killed it's market with its arrival on the public stage in it's present condition.
esampson
SOC-13
Being part of the sewing circle you would certainly know better than I, but I suspect that what happened is what is sometimes referred to as 'T2SE' in product development.
T2SE stands for 'Time to shoot the Engineer' and what it means is that at some point you have to take the product of out the engineer's hands and move it further along the development cycle. The reason for this being because an engineer can sit on a product for years making further and further refinements.
Giving your engineers more and more time does produce a better engineered product, so why don't you just let them keep designing? Well, there's the most obvious fact that a product simply has to be shipped eventually, but there's actually more to it than that.
After the engineer is done designing a product there are still other stages that have to be done before the product can ship. Ergonomics need to be done, manuals need to be written, and a manufacturing process has to be devised. While some of this is actually done during the engineering you still have to go through a final stage where you now have a designed product and you have to make sure all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed in the remaining stages. Time spent engineering actually takes away from that time. Certainly on paper it looks like they are separate, but think of it this way; if an engineer designs a product in a year then the company wouldn't have much qualm about spending six months on the later stages to finish the product. On the other hand if it takes the engineer three years to design the same product then the company is going to feel a much greater sense of urgency to get the final product out the door. Counter-intuitive, but there you have it.
With all the time T5 has been in development and beta I suspect it got to a stage where Marc felt it needed to get out the door rather than spend the full length of time it should have in the steps that occurred after 'engineering'.
Of course this is just a guess on my part.
mechascorpio
SOC-12
I want to dig into this a little deeper.
Let's assume that T5's organizational and readability issues did not exist (either through time travel, an update, an alternate universe, whatever). Assume that T5 was published virtually free of errata, with balanced systems that make sense and interact with each other properly as intended.
Let's also assume that this book is aimed squarely at GMs. Because I'd argue that it is, at least 75% of it. Almost every one of these new features is intended for the person running the game, the one who has to build and run the adventure/campaign; "maker" the ships, worlds, equipment, aliens, etc. for whatever science fiction setting the game can support; ref the encounters; and so on. Call it a "toolbox" as so many have now chosen to do.
Finally, let's acknowledge that the success of any RPG, both financially and in terms of popularity, is dependent on player buy-in. You've got to "sell it" (in every sense of the phrase) to nearly everyone at the table, not just the 1 out of 4,5,6 who is running the game. Those who play the characters don't need a toolbox, though they do want some understanding of the basic mechanics (beyond character creation) to feel some control over the character in which they've invested and to strengthen the player/GM trust relationship.
So, having established all that...
What is it about T5, especially to those players, that makes it the "ultimate" version of Traveller? What is it that should make it so much superior to previous versions of Traveller that everyone should gravitate to it instead of other versions?
Is the dice mechanic superior? Faster? More intuitive? More fun?
Is determining mods more intuitive now?
T5 Character Generation leads to deeper characters and is thus more fun to roleplay?
Does it add elements of player agency in the storyline like many games these days that was lacking in previous versions?
Does the addition of Personals and rolling to resolve social interactions with NPCs provide a superior (faster? more fun?) experience when compared to other games?
That's my question. You're the GM. You want to take your Traveller 5 toolbox and turn it into a game. How do you pitch it to the players you need at your table that this is the best version available (because that is the point of the OP)? They should run out and buy the book (or the Players' Guide, if it existed), and this is the version you'll be playing from now on, because it's best for them.
What is so inherently special about T5 to every player at the table that it should eclipse CT, MT, MgT or any other SF RPG? I would genuinely like to know because I've got the book and I've yet to be convinced that if it weren't for the organizational issues, I'd be playing this instead of something else.
Let's assume that T5's organizational and readability issues did not exist (either through time travel, an update, an alternate universe, whatever). Assume that T5 was published virtually free of errata, with balanced systems that make sense and interact with each other properly as intended.
Let's also assume that this book is aimed squarely at GMs. Because I'd argue that it is, at least 75% of it. Almost every one of these new features is intended for the person running the game, the one who has to build and run the adventure/campaign; "maker" the ships, worlds, equipment, aliens, etc. for whatever science fiction setting the game can support; ref the encounters; and so on. Call it a "toolbox" as so many have now chosen to do.
Finally, let's acknowledge that the success of any RPG, both financially and in terms of popularity, is dependent on player buy-in. You've got to "sell it" (in every sense of the phrase) to nearly everyone at the table, not just the 1 out of 4,5,6 who is running the game. Those who play the characters don't need a toolbox, though they do want some understanding of the basic mechanics (beyond character creation) to feel some control over the character in which they've invested and to strengthen the player/GM trust relationship.
So, having established all that...
What is it about T5, especially to those players, that makes it the "ultimate" version of Traveller? What is it that should make it so much superior to previous versions of Traveller that everyone should gravitate to it instead of other versions?
Is the dice mechanic superior? Faster? More intuitive? More fun?
Is determining mods more intuitive now?
T5 Character Generation leads to deeper characters and is thus more fun to roleplay?
Does it add elements of player agency in the storyline like many games these days that was lacking in previous versions?
Does the addition of Personals and rolling to resolve social interactions with NPCs provide a superior (faster? more fun?) experience when compared to other games?
That's my question. You're the GM. You want to take your Traveller 5 toolbox and turn it into a game. How do you pitch it to the players you need at your table that this is the best version available (because that is the point of the OP)? They should run out and buy the book (or the Players' Guide, if it existed), and this is the version you'll be playing from now on, because it's best for them.
What is so inherently special about T5 to every player at the table that it should eclipse CT, MT, MgT or any other SF RPG? I would genuinely like to know because I've got the book and I've yet to be convinced that if it weren't for the organizational issues, I'd be playing this instead of something else.
thalassogen
SOC-12
- its completeness, one (or very few) book(s) containing everything
- the makers' easiness and fastness
- the internal cohesion of the rules
- the support of a really enthusiastic fan community
esampson
SOC-13
For me it would probably be the QREBS system and tech staging. I'm not 100% happy with everything in the QREBS system but I do like the fact that it allows me to have a character who is a master gunsmith who can then build a gun that is superior to the mass produced guns commonly available, yet without being ridiculously overpowered (the better guns won't turn an amateur into a dead shot or a good shot into someone who never ever misses, but the effects of the superior weapon aren't completely unnoticeable, either).
The staging effects allow characters to play with ideas like equipping their starship with an experimental antimatter power system (at TL-13) that is bigger, much more costly, and more finicky than a TL-16 Darrian antimatter power system or alternately advanced power systems that take up much less space than their base-tl counterparts.
What he said.
I was a long time GURPS player. I have played campaigns in GURPS 1e, 2e, 3e, 3eR, and finally 4e. What was promised in GURPS 4e was not (in my humble opinion) accomplished. This edition was supposed to remove the cruft and special systems that had developed over the years and clean things up into a streamlined game.
Some things were fixed (e.g., attribute costs and attribute scaling); others were left in the sad state they had grown into over the 2e-3eR area (e.g., magic, powers, a zillion skills and sub-skills and specializations), and other tings were broken, for what seems like no apparent reason what-so-ever (perks, a talent system that was not applied to the only advantage to have used this exact mechanic in the earlier editions: Magery).
Had GURPS actually delivered on the promise of a truly streamlined system with fast play and definitive, intuitive rules, I think the GURPS fanbase would have all moved over to the new edition, and the sales in the GURPS line would not have slumped into the we will get to a new GURPS hardcover supplement after we finish these next four Munchkin expansions state it is in now.
How does this apply? Well, GURPS 4e is a well organized, well edited, easily navigable two book core set that, despite these things going for it, failed to do what everyone was lead to believe it would do.
Now, let us assume that, as the question was phrased: What is it about T5, especially to those players, that makes it the "ultimate" version of Traveller?
What would have made this the ultimate version of Traveller (in my opinion), would be to split the core set into three books, each no more than 196 pages long (much akin to the organization of classic Traveller).
Book 1: Travellers -- Characters and Combat
- It should have all of the rules for a fully developed characters with an option to use a simple, standard, or advanced generation system. Each system should result in approximately the same overall stats and skill levels (each option simple adding in additional details to flesh out the character's background).
- An easily manageable list of skills. An option to have a more detgailed skill system with far more resolution if desired; or which can be ignored if the GM and the characters want to have more soft-sci-fi feel to the game.
- A core die mechanic using nothing but d6s and using a roll high = good mentality. In addition, a couple of optional task resolution mechanics that could utilize other dice or rolling methods, but which will result in approximately the same chances of success in the mid ranges (ability scores of 4 to A; skill levels of 0 to 3).
- A core combat system that will allow combat to be ran with no more than 3 die rolls per combatant, per combat round. Additional options should be presented which will allow the Ref and the players to have as much detail added to the combat system as they would like.
- A generic list of pre-generated armor, weapons, vehicles, starships, and things should be included (created via the rules in Book 2).
Book 2: Equipment -- Fire, Fusion, and Steel
- The various maker systems for armor, weapons, vehicles, starships, things, and so should be placed into this book.
- Starship hulls of any size should be able to be created with the system as presented.
- All pre-generated items from Book 1 should be made following these rules.
- Each maker should have worked exampled of historical equipment thought each of the tech levels (e.g., if the vehicle maker cannot give me semi-accurate stats for a raft, a chariot, a biplane, and a WWII era tank... then it is not complete).
- A list of equipment, vehicles, starships, and so on specific to a Third Imperium campaign should be placed into an appendix as a reference; this will allow a Ref to dive in and get a feel for the makers before they start to tinker and create items for their own Traveller universe.
Book 3: Worlds -- A Sky Full of Stars
- All of the Star System and World generation stuff should go in this book.
- Rules for exploration, scanning, scouting, and adventuring within a Traveller-style universe should be here as well.
- Rules for having maps be classic-style (2D), or 2300-style (3D).
- A set of sector and sub-sector maps (in both 2D and 3D formats) showing the locations of systems in the immediate vicinity of Terra. Full system write-ups and planetary data for all of those stars. This will give the Ref a jump start to to begin playing, as well as provide a group of stars and systems that can easily be ported out of the Third Imperium setting without feeling too odd to do so.
Assuming this is (as stated), well edited, well organized, and well laid out -- I think many old school Traveller fans would come over to the newest (and ultimate) edition of the rules. Players would need nothing but Book 1; a Ref would need Books 1, 2, and 3. Offer all three in soft cover and hard cover (to allow for multiple price points).
But this is just how I see things.
Earth to Ishmael...
I ask that, too. Where would the "Ultimate" in it be exactly, other than it being the last Marc Miller book?
I've tried to say this before myself, but you put it much better. Basically my thought was that if Marc was anything like me, I can see how one could easily keep tinkering with the system, simply because it is so ambitious and trying to tie together so many things, and the elegance of some of the systems in it would easily motivate one such as myself to seek similarly elegant solutions to more of it, even areas where it would be much, much harder to do. But you're right, there comes a time when you do have to ship. I think if he was like me he would need a hard deadline, but self-imposed ones don't really work (for me anyway), so perhaps he used the Kickstarter as an excuse to have a hard deadline. Of course, given the amount of work needed for the post-engineering stages that you mentioned, the deadline chosen was an unrealistic one, and hence we got the twin problems of it being both unfinished and late. And yes, as has been mentioned there was also the problem of Marc insisting on things that many (if not most) of the community didn't want in the game.
And I can certainly understand some people's desire to have a complete and finished product so that they don't have to tinker with it at all, and others (like me) who are used to it and (relatively) o.k. with that (although I still would have preferred it to be done better as well obviously). Overall, it's definitely an unfortunate situation, and in the end you have to ask yourself if what is in there is worth it or not. For me, it is. And one certainly doesn't have to come up with house rules to fix any problems; for as long as they have access to these forums, there are plenty for them to choose from, with more on the way (from me at least).
Definitely a YMMV thing I think, but there have already been at least two threads covering this very topic before, so there's no need to go into it in great detail here, but I'd have to say in short, simply how much you can do with it all in one volume, without the need for supplements. It simply provides more options than previous versions. GURPS probably allows more options, but I'd have to buy so many other books to get them, it would easily make up for the price, even surpass it. The only place I find T5 a little limited is in the character variety. I know they tried to make each career more encompassing, but I think they fell short a bit, like how every rogue is a con-man style, when so many others are possible. But I suppose compared to other versions considering just the core rules, it's decent enough. Other than that though, more options with weapons, equipment, vehicles, character types (not careers, but robots, chimeras, clones, etc., plus the sophont maker). No other sci-fi game I have has this many options, without a ton of supplements. And very much what esampson said in his last post as well.mechascorpio said:
While I don't think this would make it "ultimate" per se, I do think it would have been a better idea, both from a marketing perspective (less daunting to new players and no need for a separate player's guide), but also we wouldn't have had the problem of so many things having been cut for space, including artwork that was in the original draft.KDLadage said:
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Earth to Shonner
both are roll under stat+skill
for increasing difficulty:
gurps ; stat+skill+mod >= 3d6 ( average task ) where each step of difficulty is chosen by the ref and where 3d6 average is equal to the average stat. Negative values for the mod increases difficulty.
T4/T5 ; stat+skill >= 2d6 ( average task ) + mod where each step of difficulty is +1d6 ( avg 3.5 ) and where 2d6 average is equal to the average stat.
You're simply moving the difficulty mods from the target number side of the equation to the dice side of the equation and you're letting the dice choose the mod* for you instead of letting the ref choose the mod.
*rolled by players
so, gurps is finer grained with 3d6 base whereas T4/T5 is coarser grained with 2d6 base
This also indicates that a Gurps mod of -5 corresponds to a step of T4/T5 difficulty (+1d6) ( average 3.5 * 1.5 )
and, imho, the This-is-hard rule is an ugly kludge .
they're the same in concept...roll under stat+skill
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You might be better off by rolling 2d6 less than or equal to your attibute where each increase in difficulty adds a die ( or subtracts if the task is trivially easy ) and subtract dice equal to your skill.
[ stat-8 skill -1 guy tries a 'difficult' task...3d6 ( 2d6+1d6 difficulty-1d6 ( because skill-1)) ....roll 8 or less with 2d6 to succeed....]
some tasks become automatic success.
add 1d6 if you don't have the skill , add 1d6 for quick attempt, subtract 1d6 for a cautious attempt
at least it avoids the dirty kludge for each task attempt
both are roll under stat+skill
for increasing difficulty:
gurps ; stat+skill+mod >= 3d6 ( average task ) where each step of difficulty is chosen by the ref and where 3d6 average is equal to the average stat. Negative values for the mod increases difficulty.
T4/T5 ; stat+skill >= 2d6 ( average task ) + mod where each step of difficulty is +1d6 ( avg 3.5 ) and where 2d6 average is equal to the average stat.
You're simply moving the difficulty mods from the target number side of the equation to the dice side of the equation and you're letting the dice choose the mod* for you instead of letting the ref choose the mod.
*rolled by players
so, gurps is finer grained with 3d6 base whereas T4/T5 is coarser grained with 2d6 base
This also indicates that a Gurps mod of -5 corresponds to a step of T4/T5 difficulty (+1d6) ( average 3.5 * 1.5 )
and, imho, the This-is-hard rule is an ugly kludge .
they're the same in concept...roll under stat+skill
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You might be better off by rolling 2d6 less than or equal to your attibute where each increase in difficulty adds a die ( or subtracts if the task is trivially easy ) and subtract dice equal to your skill.
[ stat-8 skill -1 guy tries a 'difficult' task...3d6 ( 2d6+1d6 difficulty-1d6 ( because skill-1)) ....roll 8 or less with 2d6 to succeed....]
some tasks become automatic success.
add 1d6 if you don't have the skill , add 1d6 for quick attempt, subtract 1d6 for a cautious attempt
at least it avoids the dirty kludge for each task attempt
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And that's where any similarity ends.
