Right after I win the lottery. Twice.
Traveller 5 - With an update can it eclipse CT?
- Thread starter Spaceresearcher
- Start date
Right after I win the lottery. Twice.
mechascorpio
SOC-12
Although I appreciate the detailed answer, it really wasn't an answer to my question. Your approach is a radical re-write of the book Traveller5, and some of what you include implies re-engineering the rules. All I meant was that if you take T5, fix and reorganize the rules as-is, why does it become the best version of Traveller?
I appreciate the other answers too, but there's a lot of focus in most of those answers on why T5 is so enticing to you as a GM, and not to player characters that you are trying to get to your table. esampson has one of the more compelling answers, but I don't see how these things make the entire version the best version of Traveller ever.
sure thing.
but considering what I know of T4 and what has been said of T5, I have to believe that it would be extremely unlikely.
It was just an observation anyways.
As for myself, I prefer a homebrew MT system for Traveller with a homebrew AHL tactical combat game (non-OTU non-standard ), but my wife and kids prefer a Final Fantasy-like setting with GURPS Lite.
but considering what I know of T4 and what has been said of T5, I have to believe that it would be extremely unlikely.
It was just an observation anyways.
As for myself, I prefer a homebrew MT system for Traveller with a homebrew AHL tactical combat game (non-OTU non-standard ), but my wife and kids prefer a Final Fantasy-like setting with GURPS Lite.
CosmicGamer
SOC-14 1K
I can't speak as to a majority, but if your taking a survey, add me to the no column for T5.
Yea, I kinda caught that after I posted. I do not think, in the rules as written (even cleaned up and reorganized) would create the ultimate version of Traveller. Cleaned up and reorganized would be much prefered over the current book... but not ultimate. If you want to make the ultimate version of Traveller, I would think you would need to re-engineer it.
In that respect -- agreed.
I think my answer applies to player characters just as much, since I like to play too. Like I said, I can play more kinds of characters like clones, robots, chimeras, synthetics, or almost any sophont species I like since there is a maker for those in there. I can play a clone of my own character with the Life Insurance benefit, or my character's children, or have his parents in there with actual related stats (and hence make siblings or whatever). There's more options for equipment, vehicles, weapons, all sorts of stuff, so I can have fun in a mole machine, or submarine, or blimp, and even use them in combat (note to self: need blimp to sub combat scene!). There are far more options for FTL than any previous version (except MgT, kinda), including NAFAL. More detailed interactions with NPCs with Personals, better handling of the senses, including alien ones, that fits seamlessly with enhancers like binoculars, spectrum-shifting gear (IR goggles), and vehicle and starship sensors. Very little of all this stuff and more can I do in other SF RPGs I have because they are too specific (Star Trek, Star Wars, Trinity, Firefly, BSG), or I have to buy many supplements for (like GURPS).
But like I said, YMMV. T5 doesn't have to be better in every way for me to enjoy it, I play different games for different reasons. I just find that I can do more different things with Traveller, and in particular T5, than I can with others. To help my players decide on what kind of game we should play first, I wrote up a list of around 2 dozen different types of games we could do, from Star Wars style (now that we have trans-galactic FTL), to Star Trek style military exploration, Starship Troopers, Firefly, BSG, Alien, Aliens, Dune, Leverage... heck, we could even do a Harry Potter style game if we wanted (You're a psion, Harry!).
I have been a long time MT fan and loved the FF&S design system. But with my purchase and backing of T5 i have moved all my materials and efforts over to T5. Over the last few weeks i have been converting everything MT to T5 and a couple of my players also long time MT fans now think that T5 is the best version yet.
What Sold it to Us:-
QREBS, great idea and i kick myself for not thinking of it
Flux, same as QREBS
Combat, although i have tweaked it a little and have interpreted it in my own way my group and i think it is a vast improvement on MT.
the Makers, because they integrate so easily into the rules. they are less technical than the FF&S which i love but way easier to use and implement.
Skills, the addition of knowledge's and the general task system is quick and intuitive and if you have a good skill and attribute base actually lowers dice rolling. I f you have over 6 or 12 in your C+S+K on 1D or 2D tasks you don't need to roll making everyday tasks part of roleplaying and easily described away.
Now some people have been saying that T5 is math heavy, why? Do you have trouble adding up a couple of dice have you tried Tunnels and Trolls where you may well be rolling over 100 dice for the group and adding them. Try Spacemaster and tell me that T5 is math heavy. So far its basic adding and subtraction that's not math heavy that's basic and we do it in every game we play.
In my opinion T5 is great, the book looks awesome on my shelf, the CDROM is useful for searching, but actually i don't use it much, since i now can find anything in the book as i find its layout to be easy, with each Maker in its own chapter. An Index would be nice, but i wouldn't really use it so doesn't bother me that its not there. As for new players i think you will find that some will be attracted by the big black book, mainly due to its size, teenage boys, size is everything, i know i was one and long time ago, and i bought Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay on the size of the rulebook, and it was the most expensive game around at the time. Admittedly i liked the idea that it had a 16 certification as well and i was 14 at the time.
What Sold it to Us:-
QREBS, great idea and i kick myself for not thinking of it
Flux, same as QREBS
Combat, although i have tweaked it a little and have interpreted it in my own way my group and i think it is a vast improvement on MT.
the Makers, because they integrate so easily into the rules. they are less technical than the FF&S which i love but way easier to use and implement.
Skills, the addition of knowledge's and the general task system is quick and intuitive and if you have a good skill and attribute base actually lowers dice rolling. I f you have over 6 or 12 in your C+S+K on 1D or 2D tasks you don't need to roll making everyday tasks part of roleplaying and easily described away.
Now some people have been saying that T5 is math heavy, why? Do you have trouble adding up a couple of dice have you tried Tunnels and Trolls where you may well be rolling over 100 dice for the group and adding them. Try Spacemaster and tell me that T5 is math heavy. So far its basic adding and subtraction that's not math heavy that's basic and we do it in every game we play.
In my opinion T5 is great, the book looks awesome on my shelf, the CDROM is useful for searching, but actually i don't use it much, since i now can find anything in the book as i find its layout to be easy, with each Maker in its own chapter. An Index would be nice, but i wouldn't really use it so doesn't bother me that its not there. As for new players i think you will find that some will be attracted by the big black book, mainly due to its size, teenage boys, size is everything, i know i was one and long time ago, and i bought Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay on the size of the rulebook, and it was the most expensive game around at the time. Admittedly i liked the idea that it had a 16 certification as well and i was 14 at the time.
Spaceresearcher
SOC-12
Thanks to all for there responses so far. It's been most interesting.
It's great to see subjective discussions focused on how it could be better.
I'm hoping this thread will prove to be a useful resource for the designer and designers to assist them in finding out what to look at, to make it more like the classic Traveller everyone got excited about all those years ago and beyond.
Something I'm really liking is how everyone is passionate about Traveller, no matter which version you play. That's a real credit to everyone and there's such diversity on what fellow Travellers find to be there version of the ultimate Traveller.
Ultimately I'm sure that the designers will eventually want to get the system to a point that most Travellers like. Always bear in mind that no matter what changes, there's no way to please everyone(even classic Traveller couldn't achieve that. Is there anything in life that could?).
What's most important however is bringing the essential issues out in the open to assist designers. I'm sure we'd all like something along the lines of as some players have pointed out 'Call Of Cthulhu' where the system is well known and loved and players stick to it's rule system. I feel T5 is close on a lot of levels and it's a shame it seems to have fallen short for a lot of players on areas like the combat system and some of the maker rules. Fair enough if it's found that more explanation or examples is required but then with the size of T5, I'm sure it's fair to say that room to put them was an issue. (also on that, it's possible the dice rolling chapter could have been reduced in size to save the necessary pages but it is VERY well explained and laid out).
For the record I game T4 and MT and plan to adventure through all the official adventures that came out for T4.(T5 is in the pipeline though as I'm loving all the new features and character options). Fellow Travellers are correct on T4's badly organised structure etc(book 2: Starships was really a disappointment also), however there's some great adventures to be found in T4 and thanks to the FFE CDROM an excellent Aliens book to add to your library as well. (Also I was suckered in by the glorious artwork of Chris Foss, magnificent and worth owning the set for that alone).
Please do keep discussing what could be done to make it the best rules set and system for our favourite game. I'm really enjoying the responses and am surprised at some of the points that have been raised. The main issue to me is that it's the current Traveller and the road for the future so it is a concern that a lot of fellow Travellers seem to feel it's not going to usher in a new wave of fans. This is very sad news as Traveller is, (let's face it) THE most vastly detailed SciFi RPG universe ever created. (Fair statement?).
There's literally a lifetime of scifi gaming goodness with Traveller and it deserves to have an internationally agreed upon core rules if you will. (Dare I say it, AD&D does, so why shouldn't Traveller? Why must Fantasy systems always get the front row seat?(My answer to that is that there easier for the average mind to handle. Traveller takes the extra effort but that's what makes it 10 times more rewarding and a lot more fun to play).
So far, I havn't really found a reason to classify T5 as just a toolkit. It's deffinately one of the more complete game systems I've ever seen period. I'm already looking forward to incorporating the Flux system into my game and don't find anything over complicated at all. The combat system seem to make sense but as to how it will go in play remains to be seen. In any case, surely it can simply be updated to correct the major discussed issues.
One more point. It's been mentioned by a couple of Travellers that the Mongoose Traveller is the current standard. I've been considering grabbing the whole line as I found the supplements to have some great material for current Traveller games(any system really). I havn't actually read the Mongoose rules system but the fact that's it's gathered such a loyal fan base and that the company listened to the players is indeed a very good reason to check it out if nothing else. So thanks for bringing it up.
It's great to see subjective discussions focused on how it could be better.
I'm hoping this thread will prove to be a useful resource for the designer and designers to assist them in finding out what to look at, to make it more like the classic Traveller everyone got excited about all those years ago and beyond.
Something I'm really liking is how everyone is passionate about Traveller, no matter which version you play. That's a real credit to everyone and there's such diversity on what fellow Travellers find to be there version of the ultimate Traveller.
Ultimately I'm sure that the designers will eventually want to get the system to a point that most Travellers like. Always bear in mind that no matter what changes, there's no way to please everyone(even classic Traveller couldn't achieve that. Is there anything in life that could?).
What's most important however is bringing the essential issues out in the open to assist designers. I'm sure we'd all like something along the lines of as some players have pointed out 'Call Of Cthulhu' where the system is well known and loved and players stick to it's rule system. I feel T5 is close on a lot of levels and it's a shame it seems to have fallen short for a lot of players on areas like the combat system and some of the maker rules. Fair enough if it's found that more explanation or examples is required but then with the size of T5, I'm sure it's fair to say that room to put them was an issue. (also on that, it's possible the dice rolling chapter could have been reduced in size to save the necessary pages but it is VERY well explained and laid out).
For the record I game T4 and MT and plan to adventure through all the official adventures that came out for T4.(T5 is in the pipeline though as I'm loving all the new features and character options). Fellow Travellers are correct on T4's badly organised structure etc(book 2: Starships was really a disappointment also), however there's some great adventures to be found in T4 and thanks to the FFE CDROM an excellent Aliens book to add to your library as well. (Also I was suckered in by the glorious artwork of Chris Foss, magnificent and worth owning the set for that alone).
Please do keep discussing what could be done to make it the best rules set and system for our favourite game. I'm really enjoying the responses and am surprised at some of the points that have been raised. The main issue to me is that it's the current Traveller and the road for the future so it is a concern that a lot of fellow Travellers seem to feel it's not going to usher in a new wave of fans. This is very sad news as Traveller is, (let's face it) THE most vastly detailed SciFi RPG universe ever created. (Fair statement?).
There's literally a lifetime of scifi gaming goodness with Traveller and it deserves to have an internationally agreed upon core rules if you will. (Dare I say it, AD&D does, so why shouldn't Traveller? Why must Fantasy systems always get the front row seat?(My answer to that is that there easier for the average mind to handle. Traveller takes the extra effort but that's what makes it 10 times more rewarding and a lot more fun to play).
So far, I havn't really found a reason to classify T5 as just a toolkit. It's deffinately one of the more complete game systems I've ever seen period. I'm already looking forward to incorporating the Flux system into my game and don't find anything over complicated at all. The combat system seem to make sense but as to how it will go in play remains to be seen. In any case, surely it can simply be updated to correct the major discussed issues.
One more point. It's been mentioned by a couple of Travellers that the Mongoose Traveller is the current standard. I've been considering grabbing the whole line as I found the supplements to have some great material for current Traveller games(any system really). I havn't actually read the Mongoose rules system but the fact that's it's gathered such a loyal fan base and that the company listened to the players is indeed a very good reason to check it out if nothing else. So thanks for bringing it up.
This is wrong. Just crazy wrong. I'm sure I must be misreading you.
There are three main flavors of D&D at the moment-- TSR D&D, 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder D&D, and Fourth Edition. They are all radically different from each other. There are significant differences even among fans of "basic" D&D-- the OD&D, Holmes, Moldvay, and Mentzer sets have some pretty big changes between them and their fans are all subtly different from each other.
For the record i really disliked CT it was for my style of gaming too watered down and simple that's why when MT came out i went with that. I look back at CT and think how anyone could have been drawn in by the rules, i can see it attracting the players through the universe because that was why i looked at it but the rules compared to other systems of the time were a little simple for my tastes.
LOL, I loved CT for its simplicity. This is why there will never be a One True Right and Only, Universally Agreed-Upon Holy Grail version of any RPG. Gamers have varying tastes in gaming mechanics.
I agree. But to quote myself from another thread:
In my opinion, one of the reasons the D20 system did so well is because it published enough "official rule variants" for its own system that it could meet the tastes and demands of rather diverse groups of role-players. Having numerous "Official Alternate Rules", with explanations as to exactly how the alternate rule affected the standard game mechanic (both pro and con), allowed players/GMs to pick and choose what suited them for their campaign, knowing full well that their options were officially supported by the Game Designers, and not just simple "House Rules" that they had to reverse-engineer for themselves because they did not like the published system. The T20 rules were based upon and benefited from this very feature of the system.
Back in the day when I was a teenager playing AD&D 1st ed in the early 1980's, my gaming group found no end of frustration not being able to play the types of characters we really wanted to play, or do the things we really wanted to do in a gaming system, without having to virtually redesign the entire game mechanic. We soon realized that we were re-inventing the wheel, and it was far easier to pick a better system that did what we wanted it to do, so we went over to Runequest (the game mechanic, not necessarily the Glorantha setting, although that setting is wonderfully thought-out and detailed).
This was the primary reason why my gaming group left AD&D 1st ed., and one of the reasons why AD&D 2nd ed. didn't bring us back. We never played D&D 3rd Ed/D20, but I have most of the rulebooks and I would say that I would actually consider playing that system, because they finally got around to designing a flexible system that could be tailored to specific campaign needs (but I still much prefer Runequest/BRP and other non-level based systems).
I think T5 would benefit from such an "OPTIONAL RULES / RULE VARIANTS Sourcebook" as well. Could be just a PDF, or a hardcopy version.
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Gallowglacht
SOC-12
I think BattleTech has the most detailed SciFi universe, for what it's worth.
What other Sci-Fi RPG's in the late 70's were better?
Just picking a nit, but since MegaTraveller didn't arrive until 1987, Classic Traveller was 'Traveller' in the late 70's and most of the 80's.
... there was some competition by the 1980's.
I played 'Gamma World', 'Star Frontiers' and 'Space Opera' alongside 'Traveller' back in the day. Space Opera seemed crunchier than Traveller (but I preferred Traveller).
Never played Space Opera (so I have no idea). Gamma World was not a competitor for Trav. Different type of game altogether.
Gamma World could be what ever you designed your own campaign to be. In my campaign, technology fell and the door for magic opened. So you had a cross between the two and loads of fun! Being both a AD&D and Traveller player/DM-GM then Gamma World was the best for both worlds.
That can be said of ANY RPG. I could make starship design rules for D&D. That wasn't my point.
I got your point , really I did. Now I had a little more space in my Gamma World than most folks had, as I had complexes on the Moon and Mars, and used From Dr. Who - Transmat transport between Earth and the moon and Mars.
So yes Gamma World wasn't a true Space travel RPG.
As written, no it cannot.
It has no vehicle design rules, so, as written, it can't do consistent vehicle-based games. So it won't do Car Wars.
As written, no spacecraft design, either, so it can't do the 3I.
As written, no dwarves and elves, either, so can't do LOTR with it.
There is a HUGE difference between "I can house-rule the ▊▊▊▊ out of this to do anything" and "as written, it supports"...
