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Traveller 5 - With an update can it eclipse CT?

This is wrong. Just crazy wrong. I'm sure I must be misreading you.

There are three main flavors of D&D at the moment-- TSR D&D, 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder D&D, and Fourth Edition. They are all radically different from each other. There are significant differences even among fans of "basic" D&D-- the OD&D, Holmes, Moldvay, and Mentzer sets have some pretty big changes between them and their fans are all subtly different from each other.

Understood Jeffr0, I'll stand corrected on that point as I don't play AD&D(Can't stand Fantasy games). The last time I was exposed to it, was some years ago before the Wizards of the coast fiasco which threatened to see all RPG's go to there idea of the ultimate RPG system.
 
Me too. However, I'm lucky in that I've been talking up Traveller to my friends for a while, I've run a Beta game (successful!) and now they're starting to request a T5 game.

I think what any RPG needs to succeed in the market today is promotion. There's nothing better than word of mouth. My strategy is to run demo games for friends and fellow geeks at my home and my Friendly Local Game Store. If I can demonstrate that T5 is fun (SPOILER: it is!) and playable (see previous spoiler) people will want to play it. Besides, I think that the Ref and the Players are about 80% of what makes a successful and fun game. The rules are just a platform for that.

When I bought my Little Black Books in the Little Black Box way-on back when (1980-ish) I had no clue what I was doing or how to do it. I spent years making characters, spaceships and subsectors with no real idea of how to play until one day in my sophomore year of high school I was reading Characters and Combat for the hundredth time and Lo! And behold! The light bulb came on and I "got it"

CT had a steep learning curve for a kid. I'm a lot older now. I've played a lot more games. CT wouldn't be much of an obstacle for me now. Similarly, T5 doesn't present much of an obstacle for me now. The big difference is the T5 has a lot more (and in my mind better) tools for the Referee than the LBBs in the LBB.

I understand some of the hurt feelings about T5, but a lot of the negativity I'm seeing here and on G+ seems to be coming from a couple of people who are seriously pissed off because T5 failed to live up to their expectations, and they seem determined to keep beating that horse until everyone joins in along with them. One guy on G+ won't be happy until Marc Miller personally apologizes to him and every Traveller player/ref ever for the "debacle" that he considers T5 to be. I'm of the opinion that even if Marc did that, he still wouldn't be happy.

T5s success is going to come down to people like me who run games. If you want to see T5 succeed, start running games and invite your friends.

Very well said Original_Carl. I whole heartedly agree that promotion is the key to success.

Personally I've found the artwork great and the colour starship pictures in the recognition guide section were fantastic. The artwork is a mix of that classic hand drawn style and modern style. This to me was a great way of bringing together the artwork through the generations. Check out P404, P276. P277, P368 and P536 for example. Great contrast. It's also terrific that the late Andrew Boulton was honored with his artwork featuring on the CDROM as well. I'll be looking at a 2nd copy shortly to preserve my highly treasured copy personally signed by Marc.
 
For T5 to be a magnet for new players, it really needed to be smaller, simpler, and cheaper.

Why? You seem to suggest that new players only want simple rules and in my experience that's far from it. As my group and i have gotten older we have gone through phases, we started off wanting ultra detailed systems with loads of rules to govern everything. Then we got into the storyteller type games where rules didn't matter the portrayal of your character and the interaction with the world and roleplaying did, and now we are swinging back to more detail but with good roleplaying and setting to back it up. Every so often we get new players and they all seem to follow the same gaming style curve, but come through it quicker because they are gaming with a group of older more experienced players and so either mature their gaming style to fit in or leave to find a more suitable group.

I have been asked multiple times over the past few years by new younger players what some of the best games are for their style of play and newer players are invariable asking for quite detailed systems but with interesting settings. I think a game needs to walk the line between too complicated and too simple to get new players, if its too simply whats to stop them going back to wargames with plying cards for spells and 2d6, but if its too complex they may well do the same. T5 for me will be the game i recommend to those new players that come to me looking for a good sci-fi universe with a good ruleset to back it up with plenty of options.

I do agree that the price is a little off putting to new players, particularity the younger crowd, but the CDROM should be quite cheap and I'm sure the price of the book isn't any more expensive than some of the Christmas or Birthday presents that the younger crowd seem to get these days.
 
Why? You seem to suggest that new players only want simple rules and in my experience that's far from it.

It's a question of numbers and barriers to entry. If there are less rules to read, if they are easier to understand and cheaper to buy, more people will be willing and able to give them a try than if they're massive, complicated and expensive. The anonymous person you quote appear to believe that the number of people who will be willing and able to start with the Big Black Book will be too low to warrant the term 'magnet for new players', and I, for one, suspect that he is absolutely right.


Hans
 
It's a question of numbers and barriers to entry. If there are less rules to read, if they are easier to understand and cheaper to buy, more people will be willing and able to give them a try than if they're massive, complicated and expensive. The anonymous person you quote appear to believe that the number of people who will be willing and able to start with the Big Black Book will be too low to warrant the term 'magnet for new players', and I, for one, suspect that he is absolutely right.


Hans

I was surprised to see a copy of T5 on a traders stall at Q-Con, Belfast's annual gaming convention, held towards the end of June. It sat there in all it's shrink wrapped glory for three days as 2,000+ punters passed it by. I would have probably spent the £50 on it myself if I hadn't been carrying my £90 kickstarted version.

I know there were other Traveller fans at the con, I was gaming with two and a half of them, but none of these guys were interested in T5.
 
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I have been asked multiple times over the past few years by new younger players what some of the best games are for their style of play and newer players are invariable asking for quite detailed systems but with interesting settings. I think a game needs to walk the line between too complicated and too simple to get new players, if its too simply whats to stop them going back to wargames with plying cards for spells and 2d6, but if its too complex they may well do the same. T5 for me will be the game i recommend to those new players that come to me looking for a good sci-fi universe with a good ruleset to back it up with plenty of options.

What I've seen played at the high schools in the last few years is again, mixed - low and mid complexity. D&D 4 (Medium-low), White Wolf (low), Palladium (Low), and D20(Medium). No GURPS (medium to high as written), no retroclones. The only Traveller I've seen was T20, and I had to autograph a copy, and answer a few rules questions†. I've had a few kids ask about Mongoose Traveller...

I've often been asked at lunchtime how to simplify D20. The kids are playing, generally, secondhand games or Palladium (and that mostly Rifts). I've had, in the last 3 years, about a dozen requests for something simpler than d20 or 4E.

The Palladium players aren't looking for more complex, but a lot of the d20 players are. The 4E crowd seem happy with it.

Now, the 20-somethings are all over the freaking map. But the teens I've encountered are NOT looking for high complexity.

-----====-----

† They asked me if I was related to the Mr. Hostman in the book. I fessed up. Next day, they brought in their dad's T20 rulebook to get it signed.
 
Gurps 4 Vehicles was for me the only reason why I got interest at all in T5 as I loved the complexity of the design system of GURPS Vehicles and I know that this system actual came over from Traveller.
But effective the Vehicle Book was nice to play around with it but for real roleplaying it needed much to much time to prepare just a single ship with it to ever be usefull for a Game considering that a group usualy only hold for up to 25 sessions bevore it breaks appart from my expirience.
I think T5 go into the same corner that it is a nice system for people wo want to play around with a complicated system but for actuall playing one will pick simplier systems.
 
Maybe its an area/nation thing then since i have seen the trend the other way. We will have to wait and see. I was always of the opinion that Roleplayers were looking for something intelligent and more complex than say fighting fantasy books and the RP spin off but if your experience is the opposite then T5 may well struggle.
 
Hello fellow Travellers.
While T5 has been given some rather flat responses, there's a lot that even the most skeptical Traveller fan can't ignore.

Just a side step, a question has to be raised in favour of T5.
That is: If CT is so great, then why have Travellers felt the need to adopt not just 1, not 2, no 6+ and growing alternative add on rule systems? If it's so great then why must it be constantly updated in the rules department?

Personally I think the answer is simple. It's just too archaic to accomodate all a Travellers needs.

Now T5, on the other hand has made a bold attempt to provide an ultimate rules set. A massive expansion. So far the enthusiasm has been a 50/50 balance with those liking T5 ready to get in and give it a whirl, while those not in favour like some things but will stick to there current rules system.

My main gripe with Traveller and something I intend upon being firm about, is sticking to one set of rules. I find using system 68A or the UGM or whatever on top(which is not official in any way) totally annoying. In short, you shouldn't have to.

So I'd propose that with a fix for the rules that are bugging people in some way or an update to incorporate a method to adequately explain it further, could we all be happy and finally have a rules set that the majority could all agree on?

Yeah, I get it, it's kind of cool to have your own customised rules but this poses an issue. 'The founding of a standard'. In some ways Traveller has an underground movement a bit like the Linux computer operating system. It's a great operating system, but overall it's open source chaos, where there's so many varieties you end up with a lot of software that will not run on your version without recompiling source etc. No 2 users may have the same setup or even be able to use all the features of anothers system for example.

Essentially it would be comforting to know there could be a system that all Traveller players the world over could at the very least agree that's the universal standard(T5 with an update), then other things are for personal games only etc.

That way one day when a flotilla of Traveller players all meet at a Gencon etc, they will all be on the same page(no time wasting discussing Tyrano's Rule system megaspecial 101 fantisico etc).

Personally I think T5 could very well present that system once refined and only Traveller players can make that happen.

What do you think?

I can't afford to spend anymore time on these boards, so forgive me for skimming over posts that have already touched on what I'm about to post.

I think the whole idea behind T5 was that it was the system to end all systems. It creates a skill task mechanic which was sorely missing in CT, and that would have been the bane of the game had it not been for the fact that when it came out it was the only game in town, and people didn't have a problem with making up task roles on the fly to resolve non-combat situations; i.e. roll your dex or less to see if you maintain control of your vehicle, and use your skill as a negative die modifier, kind of thing.

Traveller also had the advantage that it was presented to players as a "GURPS" like system that could be applied to various sci-fi settings; TV, movies, novels and comic books. Everything from classic Tom Swift, to H.G. Wells, to Mike Mars, to Trek, to Herbert's DUNE series, to Star Wars, Aliens, etc; with the presumption that you're dealing with players whose characters are essentially normal human beings. That is to say superheros weren't well represented at the time until the Champions (HERO) system came into being.

Traveller has a lot of good history and a strong loyal fanbase. I think the only real thing that anybody could poke holes in was how armor in the CT system worked as a die modifier to a player's to hit roll verse being something that absorbed and/or took damage from the damage roll.

I think now that both a general task and hit verse damage mechanic have been worked into the system, and now that I see Mongoose introducing some other properties into Traveller, that Traveller has some sea legs once again.

As to what people think of the official setting, I don't really know. I think there's a lot of competition out on the market that might make some older Traveller material seem a bit dated, but I think overall the setting and the new game mechanic are pretty robust.

I've not heard anything negative about the new game system. Based on what little I've seen it seems like a nicely laid out book. I think if the game is to survive in the long run then a "lite" version to give potential new players a basic flavor would be helpful.

I do think, however, just hitting a lot of the online stores, that there is an awful lot of competition with some pretty impressive graphics, and I think Traveller has been given an appropriate face lift in the visuals department.

I hope it does well. The only negative impact I see from other systems are the T4 and TNE systems that didn't last very long. I think GT will help expose other RP gamers to Traveller, and I think that's a good thing for the game. CT, MT, TNE, T4 are pretty much now past news.

My only other real concern is that I saw an advert on Youtube for Drivethru RPG, and the woman narrating the ad said something like Drivethru had over 15000 products, and was adding 60 products a week, or some very high figure like that. That's a pretty daunting figure for any product; tires, bread, phones, and games. In short, I think the game is okay now, but I'm worried that the market might be getting over saturated.

Just my thoughts.
 
GURPS 4, sadly, has no Vehicle Design System, yet.
Are you refering to GURPS Vehicles for 3rd edition GURPS?

BTW, the T5 makers ARE much more simple than GURPS 3e Vehicles.

You are right I was talking about Gurps 3 Vehicles.
In Gurps 4 there is a system for spaceships and that is much easyer (you just have 20 slots where you have to assign everything)
 
But to do that would risk taking out many of the options that are for me anyway a big part of the appeal of the game. As I said in my previous post, the main thing about T5 is all the neat things you can do with it. There's always a trade-off between options and size. Given that, I still think breaking it into three core books like CT/MT would have been a good idea for a number of reasons, including marketing.

But, you aren't a potential New Player to Trav. so not really relevant to that part of the analysis. Marc had a choice to make. Design T5 to appeal to a teeny tiny group of existing players or, to the broader RPG market that don't already play Trav. He choose the former. At least he made bank off of all the Kickstarter contributors. That'll mark the high point of T5 sales though.
 
My only other real concern is that I saw an advert on Youtube for Drivethru RPG, and the woman narrating the ad said something like Drivethru had over 15000 products, and was adding 60 products a week, or some very high figure like that. That's a pretty daunting figure for any product; tires, bread, phones, and games. In short, I think the game is okay now, but I'm worried that the market might be getting over saturated.

Just my thoughts.

The advent of a market place like DriveThruRPG means that a contemporary version of Traveller also has to compete with it's ancestors. If I do a search for the term 'Traveller' in DTRPG's search bar the product list I'm presented with covers T4, TNE, 2300AD, MongTrav, Classic (in German and Spanish) and a bunch of old FASA stuff, in that order. To make any sense of it you either have to know what you're doing or be prepared to put some time in.

Nestling at the bottom of the page is,

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/80190/CT-ST-Starter-Traveller

worth every penny.
 
CT, MT, TNE, T4 are pretty much now past news.

CT is the baseline with which all subsequent editions are measured by. Even if you are going to roll with an entirely new system or mechanic, you will still compare it to the implied system/setting of Classic Traveller... even if you are trying to "fix" something about it.

It casts a long shadow... and leaves some mighty big shoes to fill even if you choose to ignore it. It also has considerably more charm than subsequent editions. Given that the community is fractured over how best to "correct" the problems in the original game, it will remain the common denominator of all Travellers. It is actually more relevant to Traveller referees than OD&D is to hard core D&D players.
 
But, you aren't a potential New Player to Trav. so not really relevant to that part of the analysis. Marc had a choice to make. Design T5 to appeal to a teeny tiny group of existing players or, to the broader RPG market that don't already play Trav. He choose the former. At least he made bank off of all the Kickstarter contributors. That'll mark the high point of T5 sales though.
So you're saying that choice isn't a relevant factor? That people will not be excited by all the various opportunities to play so many different kinds of characters, do so many different things, travel to so many different places? I guess that's why GURPS isn't doing so well then.
 
cuTTer; yeah, that's pretty much what I'm worried about. I did a quick check on Wiki, and they have ~83 titles listed. I'm thinking the actual list is probably twice that size. Traveller has a good history and Mongoose is adding some well known titles to the Traveller scheme of things, so I think it has a leg up there.
 
I think support is the main issue. Classic Traveller had a pretty poor combat system in the core too. Indeed, Marc might be being cagey / sleazy by holding off on a proper tactical combat system for a supplement.

If I got to manage the thing there'd be two lines. One of inexpensive digest sized books and another of big fat hard backs. The first thing in the first line would be a playable in one book version without the makers or dice mechanic analysis. I'd probably even leave out world building and ship design. But it would have the ships all statted out and more equipment and vehicle examples than we got in T5. The next digest would be The Spinward Marches.

The next big fat book would be a massive atlas of known space that would cover the major races in detail including vehicles and weapons. The UWPS and sector maps would take up at least half of the book. And I'd find and pay for the best comprehensive map on the internet.

But the general line of the small books would be actual play material and the fat books would be more solo Traveller and detail freak Traveller. Maybe a huge technical compendium could be fat book three with weapons and equipment and the captital ship rules. I don't know that there needs to be an endless line of new fat books. I'd like a comprehensive core but stuff like tactical combat games for space and ground would get stuck in as soft backs.

Somewhere parallel to all that I'd want to get out a plastic miniatures range with a sprue for each of the major races and another for ships. I'd do 15mm for the figures because 15mm sf is pretty popular and it would allow a couple vehicles on each sprue along with a good number of figures. I'd try for a consistant but sliding scale for the ships so the fighters and such would be only 10mm in length, adventure class ships would be around 25mm in length, and capital ships would be around 50mm in length. But I'd do it with 3D digital models so a proper scale could be imposed. Yeah I know, me and miniatures but the reality is they offer more consistant and sustainable sales than books.

Of course I'd like to see Traveller bury Games Workshop, but that's just because I'm insane.
 
I think the only real thing that anybody could poke holes in was how armor in the CT system worked as a die modifier to a player's to hit roll.

I was 16 I think when I first read that rule. For the longest time, I thought it had to be a typo. But it was just a back-assward rule. Poorly designed. The rule is all better now after 30 years.
 
I think the only real thing that anybody could poke holes in was how armor in the CT system worked as a die modifier to a player's to hit roll verse being something that absorbed and/or took damage from the damage roll.
I was 16 I think when I first read that rule. For the longest time, I thought it had to be a typo. But it was just a back-assward rule. Poorly designed. The rule is all better now after 30 years.
Funny, I found it a bother to look up the weapon vs armor and weapon vs range modifiers on tables, but (coming from AD&D to The Traveller Book) armor making you harder to hit made perfect sense ... remember THAC0 (To Hit Armor Class 0)?

... I do prefer the newer 'armor reduces damage' rules.
 
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