Traveller Advanced Base

[Vile]

Rather than derail Mithras' Deckplan-Outpost thread, I thought I'd start my own development thread here. As I said in my post there, the idea of modular shelters got me thinking along the lines of LBB3, specifically the Pre-Fabricated Cabin and Advanced Base on p.19.

The dimensions are given as 2m x 6m x 6m. I assume those are external dimensions, meaning that the structural floor and ceiling will have to be a pretty stiff material to be thin enough to (almost) let people stand up inside. I decided to go for a fully modular flat-pack construction, so that the external walls are not limited to, say, one hatch in the middle of each, which would make the whole idea impractical.

I'll probably work the whole thing out in greater detail one day for publication in Stellar Reaches. If that's ok with you, Flynn - and I know I've got a "little" something I should be getting on with first!

 

[Vile]

The basic structure is formed of 100mm x 100mm section posts made of SF light-but-stiff material. The wall frames are 2m high x 6m wide. This clearly wasn't thought out by the writers, as hardly anyone will be able to stand up straight inside one of these, especially wearing a vacc suit. o:

 

[Vile]

The floor frame slots inbetween. The ceiling frame is identical, but ommitted from these pics for clarity. If you want to build multi-storey blocks, you can just use one of these as floor/ceiling frames, which gives you another 100mm headroom. For anything other than a small temporary outpost, I'd stack two of these up to make a 4m high room (3.8m internal height).

I'm going to change the layout of these slightly, by the way, so that the floor and ceiling frames become the base units, and the walls sit between them. That way it's easier to stack them up vertically, although a two-module high room would then be only 3.9m external and 3.7m internal (you still wouldn.t bump your head).

 

[Vile]

These babies are 1375mm square and 100mm thick, which is probably mostly structure and insulation. Any plumbing would have to be external. But, hey, what's an advanced base without lots of pipes and ducts everywhere? :smirk:

 

[Vile]

Basic wall panels are 1375mm wide, 1800mm high and 100mm thick. Again, there's not much room for wiring and none at all for plumbing.

 

[Vile]

Then customise to taste with wall panels with windows, glazed wall panels, internal doors with or without windows, and pressurised hatches with or without windows. Available in hundreds of designer colours to suit your discerning tastes*.

*Free imaginary prize to whoever first identifies the quote. Think "ducts".

 

[Vile]

The basic structural components (plumbing, wiring and ducts are extra). Although you could carry the whole thing fully-assembled in a cargo bay, especially for temporary short-term deployment, if you're going to set up a "shake'n'bake" colony, it's probably best to carry everything IKEA-style.

These are just the most basic modules I came up with yesterday. There are also things like skylights and garage doors which would allow more flexibility. Also, the floor/ceiling frame is going to get an external rim, while the wall frame disappears as a unit - you'll just use the individual vertical posts seen on the far right side of the pic above.

 

[CosmicGamer]

The basic structure is formed of 100mm x 100mm section posts made of SF light-but-stiff material. The wall frames are 2m high x 6m wide. This clearly wasn't thought out by the writers, as hardly anyone will be able to stand up straight inside one of these, especially wearing a vacc suit. o:

Drawing is great.

I want to point out though that maybe 2m is a rounded off figure for the interior space. 2.134m interior gives 7' of space inside. Hope my math is right, I had to convert out of that metric.

Another possibility is the cramped size may be necessary so that it could be hauled by a wider variety of ships.

How about the possibility of a roof that is not flat but domed - hmm, probably not due to the modular nature.

Using advanced materials, would the frame need to be 100mm thick?

Basic wall panels are 1375mm wide, 1800mm high and 100mm thick. Again, there's not much room for wiring and none at all for plumbing.

Plumbing could easily be under 50mm and run within the frame instead of the thin, pretty, wall covering. Even electric running through a shielded conduit could be 25mm. The big space hog would be environmental ductwork in my opinion. Maybe it runs within the room and not the walls. Taking these things into account, and allowing for the walls to provide shielding/insulation, 100mm seams a little thick to me for those wall coverings. Or is 100m for both sides?

Just pointing out possibilities that might help you rationalize the figures.

 

[samuelvss]

100mm is O - K!!

Plumbing could easily be under 50mm and run within the frame instead of the thin, pretty, wall covering. Even electric running through a shielded conduit could be 25mm. The big space hog would be environmental ductwork in my opinion. 100mm seams a little thick to me for those wall coverings.

The ducting required in such a small small could easily be put into 100mm; narrower duct, faster fan, more radical diffuser. No plumbing would need to be over 50mm except the soil pipe, which is presumably a short run.

I think insulation, structure, and channels for utilities uses 100mm (4") right nicely. This is, by the by, almost exactly what you have with a 2x4 stud wall, and all our low tech utilities typically fit, except HVAC. For HVAC, we use more space because: 1) we can; 2) longer runs are necessary; and 3) no pressing reason to do it otherwise. Think about the HVAC in a car, however, which fits into the doors, through ducts that are 50-75mm, because it has to. Bottom line is 100mm works fine.

Beautiful design.

 

[Vile]

Thanks, for the praise, guys. This is really only a first stab at the design, I will develop it im much greater detail later.

To be honest, the 100mm thick walls are for draughting convenience. I agree that a lot could be fitted into the internal walls, but I envisage most of the exterior walls being taken up with radiation shielding, insulation and just plain tough outer skins. As for the floors, at 100mm I would expect that without internal walls below, any second-story floor is still going to 'bounce' a bit even with most of its thickness being structure. Plenty of space for wiring, though. I am going to treat the dimensions are external, though, based on the wording in LBB3:

2 by 6 by 6 meters. Can be carried in the hold of a starship.

To me, this implies the dimensions are given in terms of cargo space taken up aboard a starship hold. In reality, this is probably down to the Traveller tendency to measure by squares and ignore structural thickness.

As for domed ceilings, that would certainly be possible with the aforementioned 'flat-pack' method. You just need special frames and ceiling panels for the uppermost level. Alternatively, you can have individual transparent ceiling panels or even small, one-panel domes.

What I'm finding with this design is that there are basically two applications:

1: Advanced Base - What it says in the book. This is carried fully-assembled and fitted out in a starship hold, for dropping on a planet as-is and taking it away again in the not too distant future.

2: Modular Base - For setting up a more permanent, specialised outpost of pretty much any size, you carry the components to assemble on-planet. The modular nature of the system allows modifications to be made with a minimum of fuss because - and I speak from experience - the best-laid masterplan only lasts until the contractors dig the first shovel of dirt.

 

[samuelvss]

Here's a couple of questions for us to ponder:

Can the advanced base be used in a Zero G environment?

I think the standard would not include internal grav plates, but what about plumbing, etc?

There is an example at http://www.sff.net/people/kitsune/traveller/peter/images/pressurized cabin.png
on Peter's Traveller Page, citing JTAS # 6, pp. 35-6.

Interesting stat is that it is good for - 50 to 100 deg C, as listed on that page. As I recall, vacuum is generally close to absolute zero, -273 deg C. Obviously, radiant energy can heat one side of something up much higher.

I had an idea to string advanced bases together (4, 6 or more) with cables, and impart gravity with spin. There could be a kit for that, including a hub for docking, and some basic thrusters (wee, wee thrusters) to impart spin and keep position. I remember some from a JTAS article about ion-powered craft that were under 10 kCr, using acceleration of a very small fraction of a G to flit around orbital facilities and the like. This means a wee ion thruster could bee had for a couple of thousands Cr.

That aside, can an advanced base function in zero G?

Maybe the rational answer is no, but that zero-G models or upgrade kits exist. The thermal thing bothers me too. :nonono:

 

[Vile]

For zero-G (i.e., space) I would use a different system, similar to the 30 dton cutter modules. There's another future Stellar reaches article.

I don't think this design is ideal for that application, it's really intended for a place that has an "up" and a "down". Mind you, it's cramped enough that a few handholds would allow you to get around with minimal difficulty even without gravity.

On another point, if radiation or shielding is a problem, it's probably a good idea to dig these babies into the ground of whatever planetary body they're set up on, leaving just the bits with airlocks and garage doors exposed.

I'll post some aggregate bases if I get the time, showing how these could be put together into bigger complexes.

 

[samuelvss]

Alternative 1.5 is to have it require not complete assembly, but set-up. This presumes some hinges, extension, or ?? For the drop and go, this would save precious cargo space, while making nice feasible for the poor S.O.B. who has to set this up in a hurry.:nonono:

I personally have a fetish for 4 dton containers. You have a 3 x 6 x 3, batwings come out either side (grrrrrr, click...clickity-click), voila: chez Spaceman Spiff!

Also, think about foundation / footers. Presumably some kind of self-leveling jacks, staked down.

 

[CosmicGamer]

The ducting required in such a small small could easily be put into 100mm; narrower duct, faster fan, more radical diffuser. No plumbing would need to be over 50mm except the soil pipe, which is presumably a short run.

I think insulation, structure, and channels for utilities uses 100mm (4") right nicely. This is, by the by, almost exactly what you have with a 2x4 stud wall, and all our low tech utilities typically fit, except HVAC. For HVAC, we use more space because: 1) we can; 2) longer runs are necessary; and 3) no pressing reason to do it otherwise. Think about the HVAC in a car, however, which fits into the doors, through ducts that are 50-75mm, because it has to. Bottom line is 100mm works fine.

Sure, I'll think about that car HVAC and how in the back seat, less than 4 feet away I'm uncomfortable while the folks in the front are just fine. Ok, lets give each passenger their own vents, the driver and passange always do. How far apart are they? Are you going to have vents every 3 feet? You will need them in the ceilings and floors. You ever have one part of your body hot or cold while another is comfortable and have to tweak the direction and size of the vent opening to get comfy?

Although Traveller is futuristic, I don't believe a 100mm item can fit within another 100mm item. 99mm? No structural integrity then. I'm no engineer to determine what figure is good.

I agree the soil pipe may be bigger. If that is the method used, it may go into an adjacent storage tank, straight through to the outside, or straight down or even up (pumped) to the outside. There could also be a variety of alternative methods for waste disposal.

How about a design where all the pipes, wires, ducts are run along the outside and only enter where they are needed.

 

[samuelvss]

On shielding, etc., the modularity of your design provides a great deal of flexibility. The panels have to fit into the frame, but you could have a high-rad set that had panels 500 mm thick; same on the inside, thicker outside, closing around the frames, and so forth.

Not that I have anything against diggin' the buggers in, mind ye....

Space ship hulls are pricey, and the ideal thing to have in zero G, but are built for much more. (Fuel skimming, reentry, 1G + acceleration, lasting 40+ years, etc.) This is like saying that and M2 Bradley will protect you from hail; damn sure will but is more than is necessary and priced accordingly.

Just my quirky thoughts.

 

[samuelvss]

Although Traveller is futuristic, I don't believe a 100mm item can fit within another 100mm item.

I agree the soil pipe may be bigger. If that is the method used, it may go into an adjacent storage tank, straight through to the outside, or straight down or even up (pumped) to the outside. There could also be a variety of alternative methods for waste disposal.

How about a design where all the pipes, wires, ducts are run along the outside and only enter where they are needed.

I have already paid to protect the inside; if I run the pipes outside, then I have to pay to protect the pipes. A duct can be any shape. You can get all the air you want through a 15 mm hose (push it harder). Or, you can get all the air you could in a 100 mm pipe [which I did not propose] , while blown at essentially the same pressure, from a 25 x 300 mm flat duct. Suffice it to say, this is not a hard engineering problem at TL 6.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Vile, you quoted the book

Originally Posted by LBB3 p.19
2 by 6 by 6 meters. Can be carried in the hold of a starship.

To me, this implies the dimensions are given in terms of cargo space taken up aboard a starship hold.

2 by 6 by 6 meters. Doesn't sound like a sentence. What came before it?

I see a period there after the size. It may not seam like a lot but that period does separate 2 different things. What if it had been "2 by 6 by 6 meters. Can operate in temperatures from - 50 to 100 deg C" Would that imply that dimensions are given in terms of the physics of the operating temperatures? Or are the operating temperatures - 50 to 100 deg C because of the size.

I only say this because you have issue with the height. If you can somehow believe that it is interior size....

or there is still the option that the figures are rounded off. Have you measured a 2x4 lately? They are about 1 1/2 x 3 1/2.

 

[Vile]

On shielding, etc., the modularity of your design provides a great deal of flexibility. The panels have to fit into the frame, but you could have a high-rad set that had panels 500 mm thick; same on the inside, thicker outside, closing around the frames, and so forth.

Yep, that's why I think the Pre-Fabricated Cabin and Advanced Base can be essentially the same thing - same frame, just plug in different panels. The trick is to get the external size of the modules to be the same, inside them anything goes.

Space ship hulls are pricey, and the ideal thing to have in zero G, but are built for much more. (Fuel skimming, reentry, 1G + acceleration, lasting 40+ years, etc.) This is like saying that and M2 Bradley will protect you from hail; damn sure will but is more than is necessary and priced accordingly.

True, but I always suspected the LBB2 30 dton modules given for the 50 dton cutter do not have proper spaceship hulls - try building the modules in HG, and they are just too cheap. So, I'm assuming that for the modular space-station, those babies might be the way to go. Anyway, Let's not go into that too much here - that's a topic for another thread.

 

[Vile]

Vile, you quoted the book
2 by 6 by 6 meters. Doesn't sound like a sentence. What came before it?

Ah, but it is a whole sentence. That's what put the "Little" in them LBBs.

Advanced Base (8) Cr50,000. Modular pressurized quarters for 6 persons, with air lock and atmosphere recirculating system. 2 by 6 by 6 meters. Can be carried in the hold of a starship. Weighs 6 tons.

It's not really a big deal, and if I was designing this from scratch I'd pick a different base size. For this exercise, though, I'm trying to stick to the book, and my interpretation in this context is that everything in that description relates to how big and heavy the package is in terms of the starship hold that carries it. I admit it's only my assumption, but that's what I'm going to work with.

As far as rounding off is concerned, I'm not willing to concede that that could apply to stuff that gets put into spaceships, or stuff that has to be bolted to other stuff. I seem to remember a few problems a few years back with mixing imperial and metric on some Mars probes ...

 

[CosmicGamer]

I have already paid to protect the inside; if I run the pipes outside, then I have to pay to protect the pipes. A duct can be any shape. You can get all the air you want through a 15 mm hose (push it harder). Or, you can get all the air you could in a 100 mm pipe [which I did not propose] , while blown at essentially the same pressure, from a 25 x 300 mm flat duct. Suffice it to say, this is not a hard engineering problem at TL 6.

I'm no whiz at physics or math but I know if you want to keep the volume of something the same but reduce the size you increase the pressure. Like putting your finger over the garden hose and making it shoot many times harder and farther. I'm not saying your small air duct can't handle the volume. I'm saying it is going to be shooting air out so fast that it wont be practical. You would have to add a bunch of space for a system that dissipates the air in some way so that it isn't blowing things all over the room like a leaf blower.

If you disagree please give details of how you think it would work so that I can understand you.

I agree that running the pipes outside might not be the best option if shielding is required. It won't always be required though.