CT Only: Traveller Tech Levels

[atpollard]

SO MANY discussions about Traveller seem to center on the REAL or a PERCEIVED divergence between the Traveller TL progression set in stone in 1977 and the almost 50 years that have transpired since. Let's beat that horse one more time in a TOPIC created specifically for that discussion.

Setting aside TL 0-3 for a moment since the "historic" periods are a discussion all on their own about "what defines each TL", there was a 40 year per TL progression started at TL 4 (1860-1900), continued to TL 5 (1900-1940) and then broken in the official TL TIMELINE after that as a wargame company focused on WW2 then Korea then Vietnam as the TL cornerstones. I believe this was a mistake. I think the 40 year TL makes sense for HUMAN CULTURAL and GENERATIONAL reasons. I advocate a continuation of this 40 year trend as a better "fit" for Traveller TLs vs Real World TLs.

From Traveller, we have a progression of a new Technology from Experimental (TL-2) to Developmental (TL-1) to Commercial (TL). Let's map that to 20 year Human Generations.

Let us use "Automobiles" as a historic example. The Experimental Automobiles were TL 4 (resembling steam, electric and gasoline bicycles). The Developmental Automobiles were TL 5 (where every driver was also a mechanic). The ubiquitous Commercial Automobiles are TL 6 (1940-1960).

So let's look at the population in 1960, when Automobiles are ubiquitous technology.

• The population under the age of 20 remembers from 1940 to 1960 and cannot remember a time when automobiles were not ubiquitous technology.
• Their parents: The population from age 20 to 40 remembers from 1920 to 1960 and cannot remember a time before automobiles. They watched automobiles improve from expensive and unreliable (1920) to inexpensive and reliable (1940) plus 20 years of automobiles as ubiquitous technology.
• Their grandparents: The population from age 40 to 60 remembers from 1900 to 1960 and watched automobiles improve from expensive and unreliable (1900) to inexpensive and reliable (1940) plus 20 years of automobiles as ubiquitous technology.
• Their great-grandparents: The population from age 60 to 80 remembers from 1880 to 1960 and can remember a time before automobiles. They read about experimental automobiles for 20 years (1880-1900), watched automobiles improve for 40 years (1900-1940) and experienced 20 years of automobiles as ubiquitous technology (1940-1960).
• Their great-great-grandparents: The population from age 80 to 100 remembers from 1860 to 1960 and can remember a time before automobiles. They read about experimental automobiles for 40 years (1860-1900), watched automobiles improve for 40 years (1900-1940) and experienced 20 years of automobiles as ubiquitous technology (1940-1960).

From a HUMAN perspective, the technology is "ubiquitous" because there exists no segment of the population that either has not grown up knowing nothing else, or has watched the technology develop over a lifetime [long enough to accept it].

We should continue this 40 year per TL progression forward because HUMAN GENERATIONS remain unchanged. Lack of familiarity and acceptance is a gap to "ubiquitous". If you leave the older generations behind with new Technology, then "ubiquitous" will still be delayed until they die off and are replaced by people that know only the new Technology. So you can adopt technology faster, but "ubiquitous" cannot really be accelerated too much.

Using the 40 year TLs, I propose a revised timeline of:

TL 4 (1860-1900) Steam
TL 5 (1900-1940) Internal Combustion
TL 6 (1940-1980) Jets
TL 7 (1980-2020) Computers
TL 8 (2020-2060) Lasers
TL 9 (2060-2100) Fusion
TL 10 (2100+) Gravity/Jump

I really have no idea what the "correct" progression is for mythical technology like FTL travel or reactionless drives. Perhaps 100 years per TL seems as good a starting point as any.

 

[mike wightman]

If by steam you mean the steam turbine...

I dislike the -2 TL experimental, -1 TL developmental stuff, is it really in CT?

 

[kilemall]

If by steam you mean the steam turbine...

I dislike the -2 TL experimental, -1 TL developmental stuff, is it really in CT?

I don’t think so unless it was a JTAS article-far as I know it started in later editions and is a big part of the maker mechanic in T5.

 

[atpollard]

If by steam you mean the steam turbine...

1880 is the middle of the 1860-1900 period.
What POWER source dominated Industry/manufacturing and Transportation in 1880?

Steam Turbines certainly existed, but they hardly defined the Railroads, Steamships or factories of the era.

I dislike the -2 TL experimental, -1 TL developmental stuff, is it really in CT?

I cannot say for certain. Probably not. The TIMELINE was set in stone in the 1977 Traveller rules and carried forward with minimal changes.
The -2 TL experimental, -1 TL developmental is probably MT or TNE in origin, but certainly has empirical support from most common items.

Look at the earliest FIREARMS and move 2 TL forward to find 'ubiquitous'
I already pointed out Automobiles.
Look at Airplanes (TL 4: 1880 experiments) (TL 5: 1920 Biplanes) (TL 6: 1960 ubiquitous Commercial Airlines)

EDIT: I think the Black Globe talks about TL 15 prototypes of TL 16 technology, so that is "Prototype at TL-1".

 

[Condottiere]

Make technological advancement a bar graph.

 

[Rupert]

1880 is the middle of the 1860-1900 period.
What POWER source dominated Industry/manufacturing and Transportation in 1880?

Steam Turbines certainly existed, but they hardly defined the Railroads, Steamships or factories of the era.


I cannot say for certain. Probably not. The TIMELINE was set in stone in the 1977 Traveller rules and carried forward with minimal changes.
The -2 TL experimental, -1 TL developmental is probably MT or TNE in origin, but certainly has empirical support from most common items.

Look at the earliest FIREARMS and move 2 TL forward to find 'ubiquitous'
I already pointed out Automobiles.
Look at Airplanes (TL 4: 1880 experiments) (TL 5: 1920 Biplanes) (TL 6: 1960 ubiquitous Commercial Airlines)

EDIT: I think the Black Globe talks about TL 15 prototypes of TL 16 technology, so that is "Prototype at TL-1".

It is not a TNE thing (nor a T4 thing, so far as I know). It might exist in some form in the DGP material for MT but it was never part of the design system in the core rules.

 

[kilemall]

It is not a TNE thing (nor a T4 thing, so far as I know). It might exist in some form in the DGP material for MT but it was never part of the design system in the core rules.

Not sure but I thought I saw bits of it in T4 CSC tech dev.

 

[mike wightman]

1880 is the middle of the 1860-1900 period.
What POWER source dominated Industry/manufacturing and Transportation in 1880?

Steam Turbines certainly existed, but they hardly defined the Railroads, Steamships or factories of the era.

Steam engines were being used for locomotives and the like way before the 1880s. Not as experiments, as full on production models.
The first "modern" steam engine was Newcomen's invention in 1712 which powered British industry for decades until, and that used ideas form previous engines, including the Savery engine which would still be being used in the late 1800s. The turn of the 18th century saw the introduction of high pressure steam engines.
Steam locomotives were developed from 1812 to 1830, yes Britain had an intercity rail network back in 1830s. Steam powered ships go back to the late 18th century, with transatlantic crossings by 1838. The steam powered warship with a screw propeller first appeared in the 1840s.

I cannot say for certain. Probably not. The TIMELINE was set in stone in the 1977 Traveller rules and carried forward with minimal changes.
The -2 TL experimental, -1 TL developmental is probably MT or TNE in origin, but certainly has empirical support from most common items.

I don't recall seeing it anywhere until MgT and T5.

Look at the earliest FIREARMS and move 2 TL forward to find 'ubiquitous'

So you are saying an AR 15 is just a refinement of a blunderbus?

I already pointed out Automobiles.

Chech out electric cars...

Look at Airplanes (TL 4: 1880 experiments) (TL 5: 1920 Biplanes) (TL 6: 1960 ubiquitous Commercial Airlines)

EDIT: I think the Black Globe talks about TL 15 prototypes of TL 16 technology, so that is "Prototype at TL-1".

No the black globe is a reverse engineered fudge from the same company that brought you a TL16 world that isn't TL16.

 

[atpollard]

So you are saying an AR 15 is just a refinement of a blunderbus?

Of course not ... they are obviously based on COMPLETELY different technologies ... like comparing sailing ships and microchips.

 

[atpollard]

No the black globe is a reverse engineered fudge from the same company that brought you a TL16 world that isn't TL16.

LBB 5 (1980), pg 31:
"Black globe generators are not available commercially; they are recovered artifacts installed on a makeshift basis or experimental versions installed on tech level 15 Imperial warships. The force field table shows the USP code. tech level, tonnage, and price required. Black globes have no energy point cost. Devices shown at tech level 15 are used by the Imperium; those at higher tech levels are shown for reference."

S5 Lightning Class Cruisers (1980), pg 3:
"Each of the refurbished Azhantk was fitted with a black glob generator in addition to the former meson screen, and included a direct substitution of the Penbody MA-21 for the tritium accelerator. A shortage of black globe generators left two of the ships with only meson screens until 1104."

TTB (1982), pg 155:
"lmperial research may delve into many areas. Some examples include black hole research, both large-scale and mini-black hole investigation, instantaneous transmitter development (so far proving impossible), advanced gravity manipulation, genetic manipulation, anti-matter containment, weaponry research, disintegrator beams, black globe development, deep planetary core soundings, nova prevention (and prediction), psychohistory, mass population behavior prediction, psionics, stable superheavy elements, deep radar analysis, long-range detection systems, robotics, artificial intelligence, stasis and time travel, so-called magic, cryptography, bionics, personal shields, x-ray lasers, and high temperature superconductors."

I respectfully disagree.

 

[kilemall]

Steam locomotives and industrial engines are not the same thing as steam turbines. The latter would be a refinement, in T5 parlance an improved model, it was experimented with during the transition to diesel-electric but was not satisfactory. The US versions were steam turbine-electric.

The vast bulk of steam locomotives were piston-driven.

Steam turbine locomotive - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

They were successfully used in large ships such as warships and liners and continue to be used in power plants. Gas turbines have supplanted them in marine applications.

 

[mike wightman]

Up until the point you decided to increase the font size and put your response in italics I would have taken it as a good natured discussion
They are experimental TL16 technology being produced at TL15, hence their limitations and the lack of understanding. The table in HG is therefore wrong to list them as TL15.

It is just another example of my complaint in the other thread, inconsistency and incompatibility.

Does that mean experimental jump drives at TL8? How about experimental air/rafts at TL7?

I don't mind Imperial Research Stations developing reverse engineered TL15 black globes, but that just means black globe technology is TL15 - the raw tables sans setting fluff text list the black globe at TL15. So if I am using a bespoke setting and HG I can build them at TL15 - no Imperium so no Imperial research, no Ancients so no recovered Ancient artifacts.

Mind you it is my universe so if I decide they were invented at TL9 that's fine too

But back to the discussion. If you are going to have TLs defining the technological paradigm with -2. -1 and then standard I humbly submit that the TL scale is not capable of dealing with such shifts. They become even more ludicrous at the lower TLs.

I prefer to keep the TLs as broad as possible, the mistake I see in the Traveller TL scale is too many TLs at or around our current TL of 7.

I go with an early, standard and advanced range, with a bit of overlap.

Take planes.
propeller driven: early TL5 1900s to 1930s, standard 1830s to 1940s, advanced 1940s+
jet engine: early 1940s to 1950s, standard 1950s to 1970s, advanced 1990s+
stealth: early 1940s, standard 1980s, advanced 2000s+

Did you know that current physics is based on fifty year old theories (quantum) and one hundred year old theories (GR)? When was the last major breakthrough rather than refinement of microchips?

What are the technologies that actually impact human society? Build the TL sale around those,

I personally wouldn't mind a decimalised scale so there is greater variety within a TL.

I think you have correctly identified TL4 as where it all goes a bit iffy, I just think some of your numbers are off and it is difficult to draw the lines between the TLs

TL 4 Steam power, industrialisation
TL 5 Internal Combustion, factory mass production, electrification
TL 6 Jets, rockets, satellites, solar system exploration microchip based electronics, space stations,
TL 7 personal smart device, machine learning industrial revolution
TL 8 Fusion, air/raft, man portable laser weapons
TL 9 gravitics and jump

 

[atpollard]

Up until the point you decided to increase the font size and put your response in italics I would have taken it as a good natured discussion.

I needed to distinguish the direct quotes from my commentary on them, so I changed to Italics and increased the font one size to differentiate it.
No malice was intended.

 

[atpollard]

It is just another example of my complaint in the other thread, inconsistency and incompatibility.

No argument of the inconsistency charge. That's just how Traveller is and until they sell a Flux capacitor for my Delorean, it is too late to change what was.

Does that mean experimental jump drives at TL8? How about experimental air/rafts at TL7?

I REALLY think the JUMP and GRAV at TL 9 is a flaw rather than a feature. IMTU I just push it to TL 10 to match the rest of the J2 to J6 progression and leave TL 7-9 open for "near future" in-system space technologies (like NTR torch ship Propulsion and beanstalk elevators and spaceplanes).

[IMTU] That makes TL 9 Jump a Military or Experimental Prototype of a technology in development ... perhaps a J0 for planet to outer-system exploration. I lean towards a "small ship" and TL 10-12 universe for my stomping grounds.

 

[mike wightman]

It would be nice to get a whole TL of solar system adventure before jump drive spoils things...

And why the skip at TL10? That never made sense to me, unless there is some other society changing breakthrough at TL10 what exactly is the point of skipping it for jump progression?

I have always though a TL change should include a meaningful shift in society, the paradigm that underpins the science, technology and engineering also shifts cultural standards.

TL9 gravitics
TL10 jump 1
...
TL15 jump 6.

is the difference in jump drive potential really society shaking?

TL9 gravitics - cheap and reliable travel around the whole solar system, space based industries and colonies
TL10 jump - how does this change society? Jumping to another system just to use gravitics to do the same old stuff?
TL11 meson guns, do they really change society?
TL12 meson screens, nuclear dampers, fusion+, these technologies at least demonstrate another advance in fundamental understandings
TL13
TL14
TL15

 

[atpollard]

It would be nice to get a whole TL of solar system adventure before jump drive spoils things...

And why the skip at TL10? That never made sense to me, unless there is some other society changing breakthrough at TL10 what exactly is the point of skipping it for jump progression?

I have always though a TL change should include a meaningful shift in society, the paradigm that underpins the science, technology and engineering also shifts cultural standards.

TL9 gravitics
TL10 jump 1
...
TL15 jump 6.

is the difference in jump drive potential really society shaking?

TL9 gravitics - cheap and reliable travel around the whole solar system, space based industries and colonies
TL10 jump - how does this change society? Jumping to another system just to use gravitics to do the same old stuff?
TL11 meson guns, do they really change society?
TL12 meson screens, nuclear dampers, fusion+, these technologies at least demonstrate another advance in fundamental understandings
TL13
TL14
TL15

I break them down into groups of THREE.

TL 0 is a beast all to itself (and I could make an argument that there are THREE TLs before the discovery of a Bronze Age [TL 1] - Paleolithic [TL 0a] Hunter-gatherer, Mesolithic [TL 0b] Plains Indians, Neolithic [TL 0c] Mesa dwellers.)

• TL 1-3 are dominated by AGRARIAN societies with greater than 80% of the population living as Farmers/Ranchers.
• TL 4-6 are dominated by URBANIZATION (growth of cities) and INDUSTRIALIZATION (growth of factories and heavy industry).
• TL 7-9 are dominated by TECHNOLOGY and SPACE (computers, exploring the Solar System, colonizing moons and planets, mining asteroids)
• TL 10-12 are defined by the race to the STARS (Jump Drives, Reactionless MD, Fusion Power, Star Kingdoms and Pocket Empires)
• TL 13-15 are defined by ARTIFICIAL REALITY. Here we see DNI and Holographics. The "Virtual World" becomes a larger economic sector than the Material World.
• TL 16-18 is defined by a POST MATERIAL society. Matter-Energy conversion merges the HOLOGRAPHIC reality with the MATERIAL reality.

 

[casquilho]

I break them down into groups of THREE.

TL 0 is a beast all to itself (and I could make an argument that there are THREE TLs before the discovery of a Bronze Age [TL 1] - Paleolithic [TL 0a] Hunter-gatherer, Mesolithic [TL 0b] Plains Indians, Neolithic [TL 0c] Mesa dwellers.)

• TL 1-3 are dominated by AGRARIAN societies with greater than 80% of the population living as Farmers/Ranchers.
• TL 4-6 are dominated by URBANIZATION (growth of cities) and INDUSTRIALIZATION (growth of factories and heavy industry).
• TL 7-9 are dominated by TECHNOLOGY and SPACE (computers, exploring the Solar System, colonizing moons and planets, mining asteroids)
• TL 10-12 are defined by the race to the STARS (Jump Drives, Reactionless MD, Fusion Power, Star Kingdoms and Pocket Empires)
• TL 13-15 are defined by ARTIFICIAL REALITY. Here we see DNI and Holographics. The "Virtual World" becomes a larger economic sector than the Material World.
• TL 16-18 is defined by a POST MATERIAL society. Matter-Energy conversion merges the HOLOGRAPHIC reality with the MATERIAL reality.

It crosses my mind that how you elect to define TL-7-18 will have a major impact on your setting. Say FTL for some reason, does not show up until TL 16, but other things advance, the Earth solar system TL-7-15 will be a very different place, for example. Or let's say you see a major shift in humanity, a pulse in evolution for some reason that includes the ability to shift into different dimensions, what defines TL 10 might be quite different. So, for those who like to build their own setting, this structure could help define the whole setting.

Just a thought....

 

[mike wightman]

I don't think this shift in society and culture is handled by the TL scale very well at all.

hunter-gatherer age TL0
agricultural ageTL1->2
urbanisation age TL3->4
industrial age TL5->6
communication technology age TL7->8
space industrialisation age TL9->10
interstellar age TL11->12
age of empire TL13->14
age of enlightenment TL15->16

 

[atpollard]

• TL 1-3 are dominated by AGRARIAN societies with greater than 80% of the population living as Farmers/Ranchers.
• TL 4-6 are dominated by URBANIZATION (growth of cities) and INDUSTRIALIZATION (growth of factories and heavy industry).
• TL 7-9 are dominated by TECHNOLOGY and SPACE (computers, exploring the Solar System, colonizing moons and planets, mining asteroids)
• TL 10-12 are defined by the race to the STARS (Jump Drives, Reactionless MD, Fusion Power, Star Kingdoms and Pocket Empires)
• TL 13-15 are defined by ARTIFICIAL REALITY. Here we see DNI and Holographics. The "Virtual World" becomes a larger economic sector than the Material World.
• TL 16-18 is defined by a POST MATERIAL society. Matter-Energy conversion merges the HOLOGRAPHIC reality with the MATERIAL reality.

I also link the TL to the POP.

For example, TL 0 is sustainable by a POP 0. A single Family of 1-9 people can sustain a Hunter-Gatherer technology. It can certainly HAVE a higher POP, but that is the minimum to sustain it and a larger Hunter-Gatherer Community will probably still be built around POP 0 sized units working together.

TL 5 (1900-1940), as another example, requires a CITY to sustain the sort of industrial base that defines the TL, which requires POP 5 (100,000) people as a minimum. There can be a larger population, but it will still likely be grouped around cities or regions (counties/provinces) of hundreds of thousands that are interdependent to support that TL

So let's move forward into "speculation" ...
TL 7 = POP 7 (10,000,000) as the minimum for sustainable space.
TL 10 = POP 10 (10,000,000,000) as the minimum for a star kingdom [multi-system].
TL 13 = POP 13 (10,000,000,000,000) as the minimum for an Artificial Reality Economy.
TL 16 = POP 16 (10,000,000,000,000,000) as the minimum for a Post Material Society.

Very High TLs will require Multiple Systems (thus DEMAND interstellar trade to support the interdependence) or they will result in VERY SIGNIFICANT changes in how a world/system is developed. At some point the POP will cover the surface of the world with cities and vertical farming if they do not move off-world and at some later point it may be NECESSARILY to construct a Ringworld to contain the population of 1 million 21st Century Earths.

 

[kilemall]

I also link the TL to the POP.

For example, TL 0 is sustainable by a POP 0. A single Family of 1-9 people can sustain a Hunter-Gatherer technology. It can certainly HAVE a higher POP, but that is the minimum to sustain it and a larger Hunter-Gatherer Community will probably still be built around POP 0 sized units working together.

TL 5 (1900-1940), as another example, requires a CITY to sustain the sort of industrial base that defines the TL, which requires POP 5 (100,000) people as a minimum. There can be a larger population, but it will still likely be grouped around cities or regions (counties/provinces) of hundreds of thousands that are interdependent to support that TL

So let's move forward into "speculation" ...
TL 7 = POP 7 (10,000,000) as the minimum for sustainable space.
TL 10 = POP 10 (10,000,000,000) as the minimum for a star kingdom [multi-system].
TL 13 = POP 13 (10,000,000,000,000) as the minimum for an Artificial Reality Economy.
TL 16 = POP 16 (10,000,000,000,000,000) as the minimum for a Post Material Society.

Very High TLs will require Multiple Systems (thus DEMAND interstellar trade to support the interdependence) or they will result in VERY SIGNIFICANT changes in how a world/system is developed. At some point the POP will cover the surface of the world with cities and vertical farming if they do not move off-world and at some later point it may be NECESSARILY to construct a Ringworld to contain the population of 1 million 21st Century Earths.

Or you go pop control Moties.