Traveller Theme 1: Proto-Traveller

[aramis]

If the Advanced Chargen from LBB4 is accepted, why not the one in LBB5 (though i understand that the ship design system in HG is out of question)? Otherwise, you'll give too large an advantage to those in the Army/marines.

It isn't accepted. Only the ironmongery section. The hardware and unit combat system make for some good gaming. Advanced CGen doesn't.

 

[kilemall]

I look at LBB4-7 chargen as a first stab at creating backstory for the characters, so the merc players can talk about The Big Battle Where I Got My MCUF, or scouts about That Exploration Year That Ate My Fellow Crew, or I Got Bumped To Sector Merchant Corps And I Didn't Like It.

 

[mike wightman]

It is possible to use the advanced generation for background but limit skill acquisition to the LBB1 tables.
In that way you get the character history without the skill inflation that ruins advanced generation IMHO.

 

[ffilz]

Here's a thing:

What was contained in the LBBs was never supposed to be the sum total of what the PCs were supposed to experience and encounter. It was a baseline set for the culture and science they came from.

The idea wasn't that all those blank spaces in the Tech Level Table were supposed to be filled in in a consistent, across the universe way.

The idea was, in original Traveller (sans any setting details, apart from those implied in the rules), that the PCs would go off on adventures and encounter lots of things that didn't exist in their culture, or seemed impossible, or boggled their brains. They would be there as puzzles, or threats, or opportunities.

Thus, in a "small ship" universe, the PCs might wander into space where they encounter a 50,000 ton ship. (Or such a ship might wander into a system where humanity is already established.) The PCs board this monstrous thing, and find K'kree, or 15' tall ogre aliens, or whatever.

GDW's OTU took that tact that whatever was in the Books 1-3 was pretty much what science and reality is like. Which produces a certain kind of hard-feeling SF that is fun to play in along the lines of Outland, Alien, and certain SF novels.

But, if one links to the article I posted above, one will read Miller stating the books that inspired Traveller... and all of them involved lots of fantastical worlds, with some sort of unique, exotic, SF premise per world.

A choice was made to limit exotic and unique SF possibilities fiercely in the OTU. But that does't mean it has to be that way. The moment the Referee cuts ties with the OTU, one can still be using Books 1-3 as a baseline for the PCs... but introduce whatever wonders and terrors and rewards and threats he or she wants to for the setting.

A huge ship works wonders in a Traveller game even if on is using Book 2 only... because it means the PCs get to encounter and explore something they don't understand yet.

Sure, that angle works too. I think the key is that it's up to the GM to decide when and where to break the assumptions of the 3 LBB, and when and where to create interesting situations using whichever of the constraints the GM desires.

Maybe IMTU, one oversized alien race solves the problem by putting it's crew in cold sleep for jump, runs the ship by computer for the jump, and has the ship fold out to a larger volume in real space, or not...

Meanwhile another oversized alien race figures out a jump drive that is mass based, that allows them roomier quarters so their largest ships that appear to 50,000 tons really have the characteristics of a 5,000 ton ship, as long as 90% of the volume is 400 dton "staterooms". And maybe they are more profitably able to ship low density products because their cargo holds can be twice as big, as long as they are not filled with stuff that is on average more than half as dense as fuel.

And yea, maybe in some other ATU, the GM uses High Guard to build the ships for some alien race with some alternate tech explanation.

Frank

 

[Timerover51]

Meanwhile another oversized alien race figures out a jump drive that is mass based, that allows them roomier quarters so their largest ships that appear to 50,000 tons really have the characteristics of a 5,000 ton ship, as long as 90% of the volume is 400 dton "staterooms".
Frank

How big is this "oversized" alien race, if they need 400 dTon staterooms? That is about 200,000 cubic feet, for a volume of 100 feet by 50 feet by 40 feet, or in terms of standard 40 foot freight containers, space sufficient to contain 69 of them.

Putting it another way, a WW2 Liberty ship could accommodate no more than three of said creatures, at 1420 Traveller dTons.

 

[creativehum]

How big is this "oversized" alien race, if they need 400 dTon staterooms? That is about 200,000 cubic feet, for a volume of 100 feet by 50 feet by 40 feet, or in terms of standard 40 foot freight containers, space sufficient to contain 69 of them.

Putting it another way, a WW2 Liberty ship could accommodate no more than three of said creatures, at 1420 Traveller dTons.

They could be thirty five feet tall, I suppose.

When I first typed my post on this matter upthread, I had the idea that they are giants of some kind, but live in ships without gravity, so their they bones don't snap under their own weight. A kind of Jack and the Beanstalk in a Zero G environment.

 

[Uren]

Regarding the posts about consequences gaming vs. Rewards gaming: I don't think it was mmos or computer games. I think it was D&D from the very beginning with its incremental xp rewards, levelling, loot drops, limited scenarios / dungeons and so on. I think D&D introduced that to computer gaming, not the other way around. D&D trained generations of gamers in that skinner behavioral mindset, do the activity, get the loot, get the xp, over and over until levelgasm, then do it again, like a rat figuring out the maze to press the button to get its pleasure center jazzed. With Traveller you don't get that. There's no payoff for people conditioned this way. Character development has no payoff for people who like that incremental reward style of play. I think that's why I've always had such a hard time doing anything in D&D besides getting dragged along with everyone else into killing everything they saw to get their xp fix. One of my favorite quotes: "They're not worth experience points alive." D&D game mechanics force game play in this direction. It appeals to people for whom winning is its own reward, just a rules exercise during which they keep score. Travellers exploration, discovery, gear building, interaction with aliens, independents trying to survive, this doesn't reward them because it doesn't give them points and power-ups. Why should they do anything if it doesn't give them rewards that make them win more? That's the mindset I used to see before I just stopped attending D&D games, even if they were the only game in town. Trying to get people like this to play anything else was very difficult. They would try something, maybe enjoy the novelty, then there would be a little voice: this sucks let's play D&D...

Another thing is that high level D&D characters are a players magnum opus built over years of sessions. The time investment is pretty big and they're trauma bound to them. They don't want to leave them. Hence incidents like this: A kid comes to school one morning, cheeks wet with tears. He won't speak and ignores his friends' greetings. Finally they get through to him. Did his father beat him? Are his parents splitting up? Then, in a small quavering voice... "My Monty Hall got turned into a <particular body part>." A misstep in a dark dungeon hallway triggered a Polymorph Other spell... a failed saving throw... and 2 years of sessions was now lying inert and mindless on the moldy flagstones, yet still horribly alive.

Anyway.

It's hard for people conditioned like this to enjoy games for the joy of the adventure or story rather than the rewards. It's true they don't like constraints or consequences because they make it harder to get the rewards. Otoh constraints and consequences and how characters overcome them make for great stories, adventures, and character development.

 

[Condottiere]

It's story telling and character development, which requires karma and nuyen, to increase skills and buy new gear, or burn for a critical success, or look out sir.

Dungeon masters have to be clear from the beginning that success need not be measured by the number of scalps you collect or how many sophonts you loot.

In Traveller it's credits to pay for your life style and the maintenance on the Millenium Falcon.

 

[ffilz]

How big is this "oversized" alien race, if they need 400 dTon staterooms? That is about 200,000 cubic feet, for a volume of 100 feet by 50 feet by 40 feet, or in terms of standard 40 foot freight containers, space sufficient to contain 69 of them.

Putting it another way, a WW2 Liberty ship could accommodate no more than three of said creatures, at 1420 Traveller dTons.

I was picking numbers out of a hat, but also allowing for something like the K'kree which is only big but also claustrophobic so requires more volume proportional to heir size.

Frank

 

[Timerover51]

In another thread, Aramis mentioned a Rule of 4 for what could be called Proto-Traveller.

Books 1-4 which would include Mercenary
Supplements 1-4 which would include both Spinward Marches and Citizens of the Imperium.
Adventures 1-4 which would include Leviathan

What Double Adventures would also be included in this? I assume that ANNIC NOVA and Shadows would be included, but what other ones?

Would The Traveller Book or Starter Traveller be included in this as well or are they beyond Proto-Traveller? I assume that The Traveller Adventure is beyond Proto-Traveller, as that has a fairly well developed Imperium.

 

[mike wightman]

In another thread, Aramis mentioned a Rule of 4 for what could be called Proto-Traveller.

Books 1-4 which would include Mercenary
Supplements 1-4 which would include both Spinward Marches and Citizens of the Imperium.
Adventures 1-4 which would include Leviathan

This is Cryton and Aramis' idea - some agree some don't. I think it is a pretty good rule of thumb

What Double Adventures would also be included in this? I assume that ANNIC NOVA and Shadows would be included, but what other ones?

Would The Traveller Book or Starter Traveller be included in this as well or are they beyond Proto-Traveller? I assume that The Traveller Adventure is beyond Proto-Traveller, as that has a fairly well developed Imperium.

Any of the double adventures are proto-Traveller compatible - but then so is S:6 76 Patrons.

The Traveller Book and Starter Traveller are both iterations of the 81 revision, both of which have some stuff in not available elsewhere.

TTB has a couple of sections at the end that are pure 3I setting - so well past proto-Traveller, ST doesn't have this and so is as proto-Traveller as the 81 revised LBB1-3.

But note - for true proto-Traveller you need stuff that is only in 77 - trade lanes and jump message missiles (so that you can include A4 in your proto-Traveller list)

TTA could be adapted to proto-Traveller, you just have to remove the references to ships bigger than the LBB2 maximum and their weapon systems.

 

[Blue Ghost]

This discussion is to reasonably clearly spell out the rule/setting combination known as Proto-Traveller. I'll keep this OP updated as the model gets refined.

Proto-Traveller is a small ship, low traffic Traveller Universe, typically focusing on civilian or quasi-civilian (ex-military) play rather than strictly military science-fiction. It tends to prefer the simpler rules over the more complex ones: basic chargen over advanced chargen; weapons from Book 1 over the ironmongery of Book 4; and so on.

Its default ruleset is Classic Traveller, the best edition of which is probably Starter Traveller. Supplements 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 are often accepted, as are Adventures 1-3 and all of the Double Adventures. LBB4 (Mercenary), LBB6 (Scouts), Supplement 7, and Adventures 4, 10, and 12 are sometimes used. LBB5 (High Guard) is often not needed.

I can't remember if I ever posted on this thread or not, so sorry for the repeat.

Traveller, in black and white, within The Traveller Book, Starter Edition, and Book 0 (or so I recall) stated it was a sci-fi RPG. Having played a number of sci-fi RPGs (what few there were, most of the sci-fi games at the time were wargames), I initially dismissed it because of the vanilla flavor design and lack of art.

When I got the Starter Edition as a present and saw the graphics, I became enthused, and thought it would make great media in future years. We stuck with the generic "Imperium as an optional background" flavor for a long time because the game seemed best suited for that, despite its claims otherwise.

I now see Traveller as a law enforcement and geo-politics laboratory with a lot of thought experiments scripted out, some ever so vague, which had me puzzled for the longest time. The Argon Gambit should have tipped me off, but I guess I was a bit blinded by my enthusiasm for adventure in the stars.

Star Trek, when you decode it, is a police and hospital show, and I now see Traveller in that vein. I think SJGames GURPS Space is probably more in line with what Traveller claimed to be all those years ago, verse what it's become.

It's been an interesting experience. Given my parents own investigative background, and my martial arts instructor's background, I'm seeing Traveller in a new, perhaps more sober, light.

I think Traveller's current dynamic of proto-verse-space-opera should keep it going for years to come as a laboratory.

Keep out witting the bad guys. Good luck.

 

[Golan2072]

I now see Traveller as a law enforcement and geo-politics laboratory with a lot of thought experiments scripted out, some ever so vague, which had me puzzled for the longest time. The Argon Gambit should have tipped me off, but I guess I was a bit blinded by my enthusiasm for adventure in the starד.

Yes, especially the geopolitics part. That's one of my main attracting factors to this game - building universes with their own complex politics and wars. Though I do suspect that from a law enforcement angle, the PCs usually tend to be more on the criminal side than on the cop side.

Star Trek, when you decode it, is a police and hospital show, and I now see Traveller in that vein. I think SJGames GURPS Space is probably more in line with what Traveller claimed to be all those years ago, verse what it's become.

I like this - an interesting observation.

My own take on this is that Traveller, when you decode it, is a western, or at most - a 1920's/1930's crime show. You got shotguns and six-shooters starring prominently; a BAR (Autorifle) and a Tommygun (SMG) for all your Bonnie & Clyde shootout needs and Al Capone affairs; a frontier as the explicit setting with a "remote but industrially powerful" polity with a relatively limited presence on the frontier (i.e. US GOV in the Old West); a lot of remote colonies with their old-west-small-town mentality; and most importantly - a band of desperados, again armed with shotguns and six-shooters, who ride into town and get into all sorts of trouble. Or the few lawmen or Treasury Agents who try to bring down all sorts of outlaws and mobsters - typically with little or now organisational support from the state. It's a cowboy/gangster show.

EDIT: Note that in the vast majority of such stories, neither the protagonists nor the antagonists are active-duty soldiers brandishing military hardware or commanding large military formations. The cavalry may arrive as part of the plot, but they are a parameter in a plot in which the heroes have to hold out until the cavalry arrives. The story is not about the cavalry. The same goes in Proto-Traveller for the most part - the action is typically small-scale and rarely involves heavy military hardware.

 

[mike wightman]

I agree, the western is a much better source of inspiration for Traveller since they share so many of the same tropes.

 

[Condottiere]

And you have to watch out for Coyotes.

 

[Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen]

Wile E. Coyote — super genius...

 

[Condottiere]

He worked on hyperspace interception.

You need a PhD from Acme University for that.

 

[kilemall]

He worked on hyperspace interception.

You need a PhD from Acme University for that.

Acme is on my short list of must have evil corporations with dangerously defective products.

At least, if you are a coyote.

 

[Condottiere]

I suspect it's part of an open admissions, for profit, educational institution with internet classrooms.

Amazon Clones Mediocre Equipment.

 

[Cryton]

Hmmm....The Coyotes of Space....perhaps a Vargar varient....