Traveller5 Reviews, I want an objective one

[Rynak]

There is a lot (A LOT) of negativity being generated in various reviews. I would like an honest opinion by someone that has fully digested the rules and tried to run a session. It may be too early for this, but then it would be too early for an objective review, wouldn't it? One issue that I see with Traveller5 is that it cannot possibly ever meet expectations, no matter how good it is. There has been way too much hype surrounding the project (at the time the most backed table top RPG on Kickstarter, over 5 years in development, a strong community involvement and commitment, written by Marc Miller and not done by someone else with minimal oversight, etc).

I personally don't care how it compares to other versions of Traveller *gasp* as I've never played them. I'm building a campaign from the ground up and need a wide technology base to pull equipment from to simulate several more advanced nations in a solar system along with third-world countries that still have space travel, but are more along the lines of using space shuttles. From what I've read most versions of Traveller tend to show technology in nice break points, but then lump any technology that's even slightly more advanced than the current Imperium level as one technology level higher with items that should really be broken into discreet levels.

With that in mind, will Traveller5 allow me to create big military ships, small insertion craft, fighters, tanks, etc? Is there a streamlined space combat system, how about a ground combat system? Are real space travel times delineated (I'm not interested in jump drives at this point)? Can sophonts be created, especially Aslan as they feature prominently in the back story of the system? How are psionics handled?

I'm perfectly happy with tweaking things here and there to make it work and have already invested a lot of time creating a timeline, solar system, back story for each world and really spent some time crafting a setting that should allow the characters to become major movers and shakers with the right decisions (the group will be part of a special forces unit for one of the major countries - think a cross between a SEAL team and Delta Force with a heavy insertion emphasis from space with a little undercover intelligence gathering for good measure). After I had started on all this, I searched the mighty Google for a game system that would support my campaign and found that Traveller was a well reviewed space fairing, science fiction RPG. I couldn't find an extant version that suited my needs, so I went with Traveller5 and have been crafting my ideas and waiting for some hard rules. With a tech level ruler in hand, it appears my setting will predominately use TL 10 with some smattering of TL11 and a lot of throw backs to TL 9. I may introduce much higher tech levels in the future, perhaps a future campaign that builds off the accomplishments of centuries (millennium?) earlier. While I could have gone with GURPS Traveller, but I had a bad experience with a previous version of GURPS and I dislike how complex it is to build lots of equipment, characters, etc. Also, it seemed to have limited advice on how to build items that fit into various tech levels (especially the high ones), but I may have flipped through the wrong books.

So, from someone that has some experience with Traveller5, will this system work for my campaign?

 

[Original_Carl]

I don't think you're going to get an objective opinion, but here's mine. I ran a game for a year with the beta rules and I haven't seen a whole lot if difference between them and the released product.

I think T5 is setting-neutral enough that you can fit it in wherever you want. The "makers" will allow you to build a wide variety of equipment, vehicles and starships, but the starship builder is limited to Adventure Class Starships or ACS. These are ships of 2400 tons and less. Battle Class Starships or BCS are larger.

You can make pretty much any sophont you can imagine. Or any creature you'd care to create.

The rules for psionics are easy to understand. Psionics work like every other task resolution: nD < C + S.

Buy the CDROM. It's not that expensive. Decide for yourself.

 

[pendragonman]

I don't think you're going to get an objective opinion, but here's mine. I ran a game for a year with the beta rules and I haven't seen a whole lot if difference between them and the released product.

I think T5 is setting-neutral enough that you can fit it in wherever you want. The "makers" will allow you to build a wide variety of equipment, vehicles and starships, but the starship builder is limited to Adventure Class Starships or ACS. These are ships of 2400 tons and less. Battle Class Starships or BCS are larger.

You can make pretty much any sophont you can imagine. Or any creature you'd care to create.

The rules for psionics are easy to understand. Psionics work like every other task resolution: nD < C + S.

Buy the CDROM. It's not that expensive. Decide for yourself.

Agreed. Because it is neutral in setting tones you can put yourself in Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon Five, or Battlestar Gallactica without too much work.

However, because it is setting neutral the ref has to define the setting clearly. It is because of this workload that many folks are throwing fits. The other reason folks are throwing fits is that it is not an absolute perfect product. Since perfection is a subjective perspective, it was never going to be.

As with Carl, I have run a game for about six months with the Beta rules. Played as well as any other tabletop rpg out there.

 

[aramis]

No one here really cares that you've not played other editions, other than possibly if they are looking at either OTU issues or making direct comparisons. Welcome, anyway!

"Big Military Ships" has a certain connotation to Traveller players... and T5 can't (yet - it's a planned expansion book) do BMSs sized craft. No version of traveller does BSG nor Star Wars sized BMS.

The maximum covered ship size in T5 core is 2400 Tons Displacement - or about 33600 cubic meters. A 1x3x10 ratio (similar to the BS Galactica's proportions) would be 33.4x100x334m. Smaller than even the smallest of the "official sizes" of the BSG. And maximum habitation is going to be about 1100 people. You can fake it bigger, but the rules as written are for small ships.

(Note: CT provided up to 5000Td in Bk2, 1 000 000 in book 5, MegaTraveller 1 000 000Td, TNE & T4 no upper limit but scaling issues capped useful ships under 100000Td, T20 & HT 1 000 000Td, Mongoose 2000 in core and 1 000 000 in High Guard)

If an 1100 man, 33 000 m craft is a "Big Military Ship" to you, you're all set.

 

[Original_Carl]

In my experience, it's not the ruleset, but rather the players and referee that make a good game. The T5 rules play just fine, and they are most certainly Traveller. You start play with the character you want, combat is brutal and short, there's lots of tech and the game world is mind bogglingly huge.

 

[Reban]

"Big Military Ships" has a certain connotation to Traveller players... and T5 can't (yet - it's a planned expansion book) do BMSs sized craft. No version of traveller does BSG nor Star Wars sized BMS.

The maximum covered ship size in T5 core is 2400 Tons Displacement - or about 33600 cubic meters. A 1x3x10 ratio (similar to the BS Galactica's proportions) would be 33.4x100x334m. Smaller than even the smallest of the "official sizes" of the BSG. And maximum habitation is going to be about 1100 people. You can fake it bigger, but the rules as written are for small ships.

I thought we figured out in the Beta development that you can do multiples of hull sizes and component sizes to build 2400+ sized ships? i.e. 2Z Hull is 4800dtons. The formula are provided to calculate bigger Drives as well.

The things T5 doesn't cater for are Spine sized weapons systems, squadron and fleet level combat an alternate maneuver drives (Rockets and Heplar)

EDIT: Re-reading I see you do say you "can fake it bigger" Aramis

 

[aramis]

I thought we figured out in the Beta development that you can do multiples of hull sizes and component sizes to build 2400+ sized ships? i.e. 2Z Hull is 4800dtons. The formula are provided to calculate bigger Drives as well.

The things T5 doesn't cater for are Spine sized weapons systems, squadron and fleet level combat an alternate maneuver drives (Rockets and Heplar)

Not in the book. I don't care what's in the beta forums (new people can't see them); I care what's in the book, and the book, rules as written, only goes to 2400Td.

 

[LordRhys]

Unfortunately some things that may have been in the Beta don't seem to have made it into the Big Black Book.

No lists of pre-made weapons other than some raw poorly displayed stats on page 240 that seem to have errors.

 

[Reban]

Fair enough Aramis, but Rynak is open to tweaking and this type of tweaking is also needed to build something as basic as smallcraft with the book. Do you have any inside knowledge on whether the BCS design system will depart hugely from ACS, if so we need to know now.

Rynak TL wise T5 gives a run down on what one can expect fro TL0 to TL33 or from basic tool use to technological singularity. The Makers can give you versions of whatever tech you want to create at a certain TL and then there are rules create earlier prototype, and later mature tech versions of an item or weapon.

As no SmallcraftMaker is included you'll need to tweak the ship building system to make your insertion craft. There are pointers on how on this forum.

The good news is that ArmorMaker includes Dropdress, Droparmor, and Dropsuits for your insertion teams to perform orbital (re)entries. The bad news is there's no background included on just how they are used.

If your campaign or background spans millenia there are some handy pointers on how civilizations develop over such spans and how their TL increases or falls back over the period.

Your campaign sounds like fun best of luck with it.

 

[Original_Carl]

As no SmallcraftMaker is included you'll need to tweak the ship building system to make your insertion craft. There are pointers on how on this forum.

Small craft are all covered under Vehicle Maker. Everything from a motorcycle up to an interplanetary shuttle can be made.

 

[Murdoc]

Small craft are all covered under Vehicle Maker. Everything from a motorcycle up to an interplanetary shuttle can be made.

Not really, I've tried. It's easier to make them with tweaked ACS rules than in VM. For one thing there are no maneuver drives in VM.

 

[madmike]

Well you might want to stay clear of RPG geeks review thread. The [critics are] almost scathing of the core rules.

I seriously doubt [that some critics] have even seen or looked at the core rule book.

 

[Rynak]

Thanks guys. Aramis, I'll have to take one of the books you listed and look into porting it over. I'm thinking about the 1 million ton range. I figure I can take the weapons from T5 and the shipbuilding for HG or another supplement and jam it to fit. Once I've read over the rules, I dig through the options and plan on a purchase. Thanks again, guys!

 

[Whitestreak1]

Well you might want to stay clear of RPG geeks review thread. The [critics are] almost scathing of the core rules. I seriously doubt [that some critics] have even seen or looked at the core rule book.

I wonder if this is the same guy over on the Steve Jackson Forums - he pretty much has poured on the hate for T5, and much of Traveller after CT. Goes by a different name, and I'm really glad that there's a decent ignore function on that forum!

 

[Whitestreak1]

I can't give an objective review - I've not read the entire book, for one. I will finish it and hope to run a few friends through some gyrations to see how it goes.

I do think it has a lot of promise, thoguh.

 

[Bloo]

Well you might want to stay clear of RPG geeks review thread. The [critics are] almost scathing of the core rules. I seriously doubt [that some critics] have even seen or looked at the core rule book.

There are plenty of things in T5 that are worthy of very strong criticism, from the execution of some elements to the conception of others. One doesn't have to be [an unreasonable critic] to have such views. And I don't mean that generically in the way that all things can benefit from a good critique. I personally find a lot that is well below my expectations, and the bar that has been set by some of the really excellent advances in RPG design that has been going on in the last 5-10 years or so. The first reaction (and sometimes second and third reaction) words that come to mind for some things are not polite, so I don't post them. Nothing to be gained by that (and I've been on both sides of products that were disappointing).

I try to keep in mind the second half of the axiom "Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery", to wit: "Invention is the most sincere form of criticism". And post positive or helpful things.

 

[madmike]

There are plenty of things in T5 that are worthy of very strong criticism, from the execution of some elements to the conception of others. One doesn't have to be [an unreasonable critic] to have such views. .

This comment below is typical of a reviewer who appears not to have provided a fair and balanced review.

Don answered the insinuation that Marc did not see the beta testers comments and also suggested that the Core Rules be read further before uninformed comments were made.

donm61873 wrote:
Marc saw all the feedback. I know -- I made pdfs of the postings, took them to his house, and went over them with him.

I seriously doubt he was shown all the feedback, and even if he was, it apparently was not heeded if the output is any indicator. With nearly $300,000 in funds from Kickstarter, there is absolutely no excuse for how the final product turned out. With those kind of funds it should have been nearly perfect. It should have had an index. It should have had a glossary. It should have been exhaustively edited to eliminate mechanics errors and information better suited for a supplement book. Instead, Traveller fans got a 656 page doorstop because you and everyone else associated with the project believed [personal attack removed].

Guess what? Someone dumped a major turd on Traveller fans.

If you seriously are interested in putting out a playable game, which at this time Traveller 5 is NOT, how about spending a little more of the $200,000 profit from Kickstarter and making the people who have waited through a decade of development hell for this book whole.

This bloke seriously needs to take a Bex and a good lie down.

 

[robject]

Whatever else he posted, that above snippet is not constructive.

I have read a private, objective review, and though it is unpleasant, it is necessary to make T5's rules better.

 

[Dragoner]

It is just a hit job on MWM and not about T5.

 

[Baltech Budapest]

It is just a hit job on MWM and not about T5.

That was actually my first reaction. BytrPro started a thread based on my request to get some positive feedback going for T5. Hopefully we will start to see some good reviews of the Core Book.