Traveller5 Reviews, I want an objective one

[Magnus von Thornwood]

The Formulas.

Not in the book. I don't care what's in the beta forums (new people can't see them); I care what's in the book, and the book, rules as written, only goes to 2400Td.

Actually the Drive Formulas are in the Book on page 337, so you can fake it pretty damn well. Except for Spines that is, but really they are over rated. Missiles Rule All!

 

[CosmicGamer]

Do you find the CT, Mega, TNE, or T4 errata documents difficult to use with the source material as published?

T5 shouldn't be any different.

With regards to the size, you're not comparing apples with apples and I'm thinking it will be different and more difficult.

 

[erisred]

Or a disinterested third person, preferably a professional.

A better answer for Supplement Four is lack of resources (and publishing urgency, which is related to the former). Method of production can also be a factor.

Yeah, I think you've got it. Writers have trouble seeing their mistakes...I know I do. I just had pointed out to me that I put a multiple-choice question on the final I gave today that had 2 B's, one of which was the correct answer. I called myself proofreading that test, but I just plain missed it. OTOH, give a document you've written to someone else and they will usually find your mistakes...usually. If they are too familiar with the material they might just read right over an error correcting it in their head as they read...I've had that happen too.

RPG Publishers exist on a shoe string. They often don't have the money to hire proofreaders or layout artists and make do with "all hands on deck" when it comes to getting a book out. So, you end up with errors...just the way it happens.

 

[Jazzlvraz]

...give a document you've written to someone else and they will usually find your mistakes...

When I've taught proofreading, I describe this as "your brain made the mistake, which means your brain will likely be the last one able to find it".

 

[JFGarber]

Fortunately us engineers don't mess with this stuff. You ever wonder what we REALLY think about architects at any rate? I wouldn't say its generally overwhelmingly flattering.

I too am a civil engineer, married to an architect. We own our own small shop. The "I slept my way to the top" line and the "architects and engineers can get along, if the fringes are good enough <wink>" lines are usually good for a laugh, as is the "communications between our specialties is what sets us apart" line. And although we successfully sell and generally successfully deliver "integrated services" (no innuendo there), we have errata as well. We talk work in the morning, at work, over supper, and in the little spots around raising three kids. Just had a medical center go to bid, with three sets of addenda, one revised civil sheet, and this afternoon a roofing contractor gently let me know that we'd switched the roofing and guttering guages. If my work was perfect, nobody could afford me.

Kudos to Mr. Miller. I've enjoyed Traveller since the mid-80's, warts and all.

 

[Vladika]

If my work was perfect, nobody could afford me.

No one's work is perfect, but you well know there are definite limits on "errata".

Also, your professional arraignment is a bit outside the norm. My field is structural and you can imagine the issues that arise where you have to break it to an architect that their latest artistic design has just got to have some structural "umff" where they least want it.

I'm glad to see so many engineers on this site. We're all to often stereotyped as having to little imagination. At times I've believed that the escape Traveller has afforded me has allowed me to retain some semblance of sanity. (Debatable, depending on who you ask.)

 

[Frankymole]

Exactly, here in American we call "errata" on big projects - change orders.

We call them Change Notices in the UK (at least on military shipbuilding and armoured vehicles)...

 

[madmike]

Revisions here in Australia and contractors call them "variations"

Revisions or variations are either changes due to a design issue, omission, additions to scope of works or better practice.

All same names for effectively errata.

BTW, I am a road/drainage engineer

 

[emeketos]

editor

The book is going to be most suited to people that already have a firm grasp on Traveller. If you love the game and dont mind some organizational issues I would say go pick up the CD/rom. I do not under any circumstances recommend the hard bound book.

ok here are some of the issues
Its extremely poorly organized this may not be an issue for a vet. player but A new player will immediately get lost. The rules seem to make an assumption that you know more than what is on the page and does not explain its concepts very clearly.

a lot of the game concepts assume a prior experience with traveller the rules explanation is not always 100% clear what they mean some omissions exist that experienced players would not notice. There are alot of new rules that generally do not offer any additional value to the game. This adds extra book keeping (genetics) with out and real long term benifit. one example there is rules for offspring which is based off of your dice rolls for character generation. Its a very interesting and cool look but the practicality of the rules make it pointless. Considering any offspring will be generally 40 by the time they muster out their only chance to play is every one is playing new characters or children off of their own parent characters or some combination.

There is barely any Table of Contents(half a page) and there is absolutely NO index. Which is a crime in any game. The books 650 pages with out good navigational aids makes it a nightmare to read front to back. This alone makes buying the Hardbound book a big No even for experienced players. Also in adition to this rules sections are also very very poorly organized the book does not flow well When you read a chapter you expect to see it in ABCD progressing by building on the previous sections to a complete understanding. Most of the book is organized ACDB or ADCB. This requires Alot of extra seek time and page turning. This alone is the reason I do not recommend the hardbound under any circumstances where you do not also get the PDF.

The equipment, vehicles, and starships are very minimal. There are no real descriptions of most Vehicles (eg. Air/raft is not listed) again not a huge issue for experienced players but again new players or players that haven't played in a while this will be a big problem.

There are no starships anywhere in the game. yes there is a paragraph giving a discription but its incomplete doesn't list very important facts such as Cost, detailed list of equipment or anything that will allow the players to fly a ship from the beginning of the game.

This puts a very large burden to the GM as there is a lot of pre-setup the GM will need to make prior to starting any campaign. The ships will need to be reverse engineered from the sparse descriptions into a real ship. Thisl will also cover any enemies, some equipment (although there is enough personal equipment to get by with.)

This version is very Crunchy there are rules for a lot of subjects that are completely bypassed in most other games. There is very little abstraction into the game and pushes towards that simulator type of game. Comparing this to mongoose's Traveller mongoose is somewhat abstract (but not as abstract as diaspora) T5 is crunchy side. This isn't a negative or a positive it all depends on the players enjoyment so some will like it and others will not for this.

The skill listing is EXTREMELY verbose and explains the same concept over and over and over and over for every skill in that section. This adds A LOT of unnecessary text and pages that when explained the first time should have been enough.

Positive side there are rules now while slow for allowing characters to learn new skills (via an instructor) or increasing existing skills. You can also assign 2 skills as your "apex" skills or your passion and there is another mod to be gained there. This is a big plus in my book so for the first time traveller's character sheet does not stop growing by mustering out and start playing.

comparing character generation to mongoose's version there is a little more detail for each class in mongoose's version it does allow a deeper generated background for mongooses. This may be a non issue if and when the other books in t5 are released (assuming they are) So this isn't a completely fair comparison. considering how many books mongoose has released for traveller.

The task resolution rules are interesting more difficulty requires more dice to roll target number is always generally under stat+skill+mods. Ie. 2d6 easy task 3d6 hard 4d6 difficult etc.. It does generate a bigger gap between target numbers.

there is a lot of detail for making armor's and weapons and even ships. The pregen list is pretty short. But there is a mechanism to create most items you are intrested in your game.

there is a little errata hear and there but not a hugely significant amount so far. Most can be resolved just by common sense.

there is more detail but I think thats a good enough impression that I had from the books.

so breakdown
abstract 0-Crunchy 10 = T5 is 8
Navigation 0-10 (0 being poor) 0
Quick start : 2
game improvement: 8
Errata needed (0 being alot 10 none) 7-8
experience required: 8 (I do not recommend for new players)

#1 issue is navigation navigation navigation.

 

[atpollard]

The book is going to be most suited to people that already have a firm grasp on Traveller. If you love the game and dont mind some organizational issues I would say go pick up the CD/rom. I do not under any circumstances recommend the hard bound book.

That was an amazingly useful review:

Good overall summary.
Lots of specifics supporting likes and dislikes.
Constructive criticism of things that could be improved.
Harsh criticism of perceived glaring omissions.

... and not a mean spirited word directed at anyone.

Thank you and well done.

PS. Good first post.

 

[Bloo]

I agree. I think that is a very fair review.

 

[pennshome723]

Well as I have stated, this T5 tome will be a resource of ideas to be picked at and possibly tailored to be considerd to be added to my own InHouse rules that my campaign uses.

For me I like to plan everything out myself in regards to systems and planets. As to the player characters, I ask each of them to give me a high level relations/family background and I add the details. I do this to add possible adventure plot lines or hooks for things to motivate the players in getting involved in all sorts of matters.

 

[Dragoner]

We call them Change Notices in the UK (at least on military shipbuilding and armoured vehicles)...

Revisions here in Australia and contractors call them "variations"

Revisions or variations are either changes due to a design issue, omission, additions to scope of works or better practice.

All same names for effectively errata.

BTW, I am a road/drainage engineer

Interesting of note that so many of us are engineers (I am one originally as well, though now in management), in the automotive industry, they call them Technical Service Bulletins (TSB's), in software it seems to be updates, there are a lot of words in English for errata. I know in construction the word revised is often avoided because that means it has to go back through public works/building department.

cheers,
Rob

 

[Vladika]

Technical Service Bulletins (TSB's)

Pardon me for remembering the Ford Pinto!

My original thought was that engineers at least, work very hard to minimize errata in a professional manner. I would maintain that structures and conveniences of this world work pretty well because we strive so diligently.

Maybe I'll start a thread for the engineers on here to meet and greet.

 

[pennshome723]

Hey back in college three other friends and I flipped a Ford Pinto on it's roof for a beloved teacher...LOL!!!

 

[Dragoner]

Pardon me for remembering the Ford Pinto!

Hey back in college three other friends and I flipped a Ford Pinto on it's roof for a beloved teacher...LOL!!!

Just don't rear-end one with estes model rockets motors in place of your headlights. What a stellar piece of journalism that was. lol

 

[Ishmael]

About the Ford Pinto......
The design flaws were known before the car went into production, but the "errata" to correct them was not used as it was determined to be more costly than the projected number of lawsuit losses. Financial concerns can, and often do, out-weigh the generation of errata.

Its always easier to make corrections to prints, plans and documents before the design goes into production, and much more difficult and costly after the product enters production.

 

[Vladika]

About the Ford Pinto......
The design flaws were known before the car went into production, but the "errata" to correct them was not used as it was determined to be more costly than the projected number of lawsuit losses. Financial concerns can, and often do, out-weigh the generation of errata.

That change would have been $11-12 per car. (Ford internal memo used at trial) An early case was an award of $120,000,000 reduced by the judge to $3,000,000. Additionally Ford lost serious market share for years.

Financial concerns can, and often do, out-weigh the concern for human life.

Not just Ford by any means:

Johns Mansfield - In the late 1970s court documents proved that asbestos industry officials knew of asbestos dangers since the 1930s and had concealed them from the public.

R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Company - Now pays $10 Billion a year, indefinitely, for their tobacco coverup.

The list could, and does, go on.

I guess it's up to individuals to either "go along to get along" or take a moral stand. We all have to decide what kind of people we are going to be.

 

[Jazzlvraz]

R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Company - Now pays $10 Billion a year, indefinitely, for their tobacco coverup.

Staying off topic for a minute, how depressing is it that neither the company nor its shareholders seem to care about that price of doing business, nor does it affect that business? The stock price was around $10 at the turn of the century, and is almost $50 today.

 

[Vladika]

Staying off topic for a minute, how depressing is it that neither the company nor its shareholders seem to care about that price of doing business, nor does it affect that business? The stock price was around $10 at the turn of the century, and is almost $50 today.

How depressing is it that THEY CAN AFFORD $10 Billion a year and have stock selling at almost $50 today?