Traveller5 Reviews, I want an objective one

[Supplement Four]

Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to diss anybody. It's an honest question.

And, to be even more clear, I wasn't referring to simple word typos and gramatical errors. I was asking about content errata. That seems to pop up as a problem with a lot of games.

 

[SanDragon]

CotI is hardcore Traveller fans. That's all that really matters to me.

I know a lot of gamers and I've been in the hobby for a long time. Very few of them participate in any RPG-specific online communities. Maybe that's just my own experience.

I'm a hardcore fan?

Cool.

Definitely a collector.

 

[SanDragon]

I'm still reading and absorbing the book. I haven't found anything so glaring that it eclipses Mongoose Publishing's track record on proofreading. But I knew that errata was going to be necessary when the hardcore playtesters on the beta forums were still turning in fixes and the book had gone off to print.

Traveller and Errata are like peanut butter & chocolate. And it works for my gaming purposes.

Reese's Traveller!

 

[mechascorpio]

And, to be even more clear, I wasn't referring to simple word typos and gramatical errors. I was asking about content errata. That seems to pop up as a problem with a lot of games.

Depending on the game and audience, there seems to be an acceptance of it as inevitable and no big deal, so it's going to end up low on the totem pole. When it comes time to meet those deadlines and dates given in advance to distributors, it's often a rush job or not done at all.

At the same time, if it's a priority to the creators, it shows in the end result. If you look at a game like Disapora, it was virtually perfect in its first printing, because those guys are absolute wonks about it (along with typography and layout). On the flip side, WotC reprinted D&D4E as "deluxe editions", and didn't even bother to correct the errata they knew about. At the end of the day, they know that their market accepts it, expects it and will buy anyway. Actually, it sounds like the videogame industry, deciding that it's okay to "go gold" when it isn't, and fix it weeks later with downloads. Or not.

The level of errata we see in gaming would never stand in other markets, like textbooks or technical manuals. It would hit them in the pocketbook. As long as it doesn't in the RPG market, there's no incentive to make it a priority unless the creators already feel it is.

What seems most strange to me that most publishers won't even bother to update PDFs with fixed material or errata added, even though the industry used to pimp it as one of the huge advantages of moving to the electronic format.

 

[Vladika]

At the same time, if it's a priority to the creators, it shows in the end result. If you look at a game like Disapora, it was virtually perfect in its first printing, because those guys are absolute wonks about it (along with typography and layout).

Proof it can be done.

... At the end of the day, they know that their market accepts it, expects it and will buy anyway.

Sad but true.

...and fix it weeks later with downloads. Or not.

Usually "or not".

The level of errata we see in gaming would never stand in other markets, like textbooks or technical manuals. It would hit them in the pocketbook. As long as it doesn't in the RPG market, there's no incentive to make it a priority unless the creators already feel it is.

So, as long as we keep buying used hay and oats, we'll keep getting used hay and oats...

What seems most strange to me that most publishers won't even bother to update PDFs with fixed material or errata added, even though the industry used to pimp it as one of the huge advantages of moving to the electronic format.

I am grateful for the people who take the time and interest to write, and make available, the Traveller Errata.

Your whole analysis was very succinctly, and accurately put.

 

[PFVA63]

...

The level of errata we see in gaming would never stand in other markets, like textbooks or technical manuals. It would hit them in the pocketbook. As long as it doesn't in the RPG market, there's no incentive to make it a priority unless the creators already feel it is.

....

Hi,

That's not necessarily so. I have a textbook from college that has extensive errors in it. Perhaps a large part of the reason is probably due in part to the extensive number of formulas in the book, with numerous square root, parentheses and super scripts or subscripts getting garbled or left off, but fortunately the book included numerous worked examples, where if you follow the math you can work backwards to figure out the actual correct layout of the formulas.

 

[whartung]

What seems most strange to me that most publishers won't even bother to update PDFs with fixed material or errata added, even though the industry used to pimp it as one of the huge advantages of moving to the electronic format.

The problem, potentially, is the tooling. It basically comes down to the formatting software they choose to use. It also can be important for print media.

Specifically, when dealing with figures, and tables, and what not, adding a few words can cause text to wrap, and span pages. At the worst, this creates new pages. An entire page with little more than a few words on it (depending on the nature of the change). Even then, you can see how with a lot of errata, the addition are minor to the point that even added all in, you may end up with only an extra paragraph -- a dangling paragraph.

Now the editing process becomes "how do I remove extra text to remove the dangling paragraph", because it looks awful. Even on a raw PDF, it's not a nice thing to have. Also, you may have disrupted the contents and/or index.

Finally, if you're dealing with a printed work, you can't simply add a page to the work. Printing doesn't work like that. So, even today, large works don't move around easily. They're simply not that nimble.

 

[mechascorpio]

I do layout, so I totally understand the issues you detail. But my point was this: how often do these publishers update their PDFs with an errata page at least tacked on to the end? Many errors are just numbers in the text or isolated in a table (that "+1" should have been a "+2"). More extensive, text heavy issues could be added as an appendix.

But as hard as I try to recall, I can't think of any of my PDFs having been updated like this. It's left to me to go to the publisher's site (usually not the point of purchase) and see if something is available, if at all. That's silly. My point is that errata is often treated as half-heartedly as the process that led to the errors in the first place.

So I am very pleased to see that Don and Marc are making it a priority, though I'm a bit concerned about the complexity of the issues being raised in some of these already complex systems, and how easy it will be to use the document side-by-side with the text as published.

 

[DonM]

Do you find the CT, Mega, TNE, or T4 errata documents difficult to use with the source material as published?

T5 shouldn't be any different.

 

[Bloo]

Do you find the CT, Mega, TNE, or T4 errata documents difficult to use with the source material as published?

Yes.

 

[madmike]

Do you find the CT, Mega, TNE, or T4 errata documents difficult to use with the source material as published?

T5 shouldn't be any different.

Not at all.

Errata is part and parcel of almost every technical journal or code I have owned or used in my professional career and my professional education.

 

[DaddyDragon]

Can I borrow that line?

By all means.

 

[Vladika]

Errata is part and parcel of almost every technical journal or code I have owned or used in my professional career and my professional education.

I'm an Engineer. That never occurred and would have been intolerable if it had.

I'm sure that jaundices my outlook on published material, particularly those having undergone numerous printings.

In CT Book 6: Scouts was (and still is) notoriously bad. Book 8: Robots was pretty much unusable. All in all, other books, despite errata, were usable and still fun.

In the early 80's I taught myself Basic by writing a program to generate sub-sector worlds using Book 6. (In those days we were expected to "know" Basic, though it was never taught in school. Fortran was, and we hardly ever used it. Believe it or not, there were once things called "punch cards". You learned real quick to pencil number each one sequentially!)

 

[madmike]

I'm an Engineer. That never occurred and would have been intolerable if it had.

So am I New volume of any of the miscellaneous road standard books and there is always an errata sheet or two attached or included in the package. When they are PDF, there is errata PDF's available for download. Common enough

Believe it or not, there were once things called "punch cards". You learned real quick to pencil number each one sequentially!)

Yes I remember punch cards as well.

 

[atpollard]

Actually, Civil Engineering isn't that different from game publishing in some respects ... a 100 page complete set of plans and a 1000 page book of specifications will have errors, omissions and contradictions. Some matter and some don't.

Often called upon to resolve the crisis du jour, the first question that I ask myself is will this error/omission/contradiction get someone killed? Will it cause property damage? If the answer to both questions is no, then whatever it is is not worth getting too excited over.

When preparing the documents in the first place, the same questions guide where to invest the limited resource of time. The Structural Steel, Fire Suppression System and Roadway Geometry WILL be correct, because errors could get people killed. Making sure that all of the landscaping called for has a corresponding planting detail and the Mulch on the plan doesn't call for Pine Bark when the Mulch in the Specifications calls for Shredded Cypress is just pretty far down on my priority list.

Besides, I know from Field Inspections that it is not like the landscape sub-contractor will be following the planting specifications anyway, any more than the gamers will be playing the rules as written.

 

[madmike]

Pretty much

It gets down to even ensuring kerb ramps are completely complaint with national pedestrian and disability standards to ensure that if a civil suit is bought against the local authority I work for, then compliance is met.

Then finding out that even though our standards are exact, the contractor is installing incorrectly. Or they point out our standards need revising because there are sections are calling out incorrect standards or sheet numbers.

I have forgotten how many times I have issued revisions (read: errata) for survey specs.

 

[Jazzlvraz]

Do you find the CT, Mega, TNE, or T4 errata documents difficult to use with the source material as published?

Yes. It was impossible to store the errata in an immediately usable form...partially, I freely admit, because I CANNOT write in a book, even to make a pencil-mark to warn me to look elsewhere.

I thought the advent of PDFs would be a ghod-send for me, but, as others have noted, PDF-editing for errata rarely occurs.

 

[Vladika]

... a 100 page complete set of plans and a 1000 page book of specifications will have errors, omissions and contradictions. Some matter and some don't.

Often called upon to resolve the crisis du jour, the first question that I ask myself is will this error/omission/contradiction get someone killed? Will it cause property damage? If the answer to both questions is no, then whatever it is is not worth getting too excited over.

When preparing the documents in the first place, the same questions guide where to invest the limited resource of time. The Structural Steel, Fire Suppression System and Roadway Geometry WILL be correct, because errors could get people killed.

Another big one is Contractor "Extras Charges" for practically ANY reason if there is ANY ability to misconstrue ANY part of a plan or spec. God help you if there are actual errors! (This is particularly true in government projects.) These are things you better be caring about if you wish to remain employed, or employable.

Making sure that all of the landscaping called for has a corresponding planting detail and the Mulch on the plan doesn't call for Pine Bark when the Mulch in the Specifications calls for Shredded Cypress is just pretty far down on my priority list.

Besides, I know from Field Inspections that it is not like the landscape sub-contractor will be following the planting specifications anyway, any more than the gamers will be playing the rules as written.

Fortunately us engineers don't mess with this stuff. You ever wonder what we REALLY think about architects at any rate? I wouldn't say its generally overwhelmingly flattering.

 

[mechascorpio]

Do you find the CT, Mega, TNE, or T4 errata documents difficult to use with the source material as published?

CT - no problem
Mega - yes, gave up
TNE - no idea, only version of the game I've never touched
T4 - for the core book and Pocket Empires, a bit of a pain. The errata for FF&S pretty much killed my interest in that book.

And just for reference:

GURPS - no problem
Mongoose - no problem

 

[Dragoner]

Pretty much

I have forgotten how many times I have issued revisions (read: errata) for survey specs.

Exactly, here in American we call "errata" on big projects - change orders.