Traveller's direction; history and future

[mike wightman]

Supplement 4 has posted on the subject of the early Traveller adventures and has made the excellent point that they are mostly a framework upon which the referee can build his/her adventure for the playing group.

I also prefer the CT adventures and DA over a lot of what came later because of the freedom they offer for me to make stuff up. There are also hidden gems - I've posted before that the prelude to the Marooned/Marooned Alone DA would make a pretty good campaign in its own right - and it is detailed in a couple of paragraphs

 

[Blue Ghost]

So, to answer your question: I have to sidestep your entire premise. Because I don't like the idea of arriving with "an adventure" and expectations of what the Players will do.

Which was kind of my concern with Mister Miller's new established rules for writing for his game.

Of course, when presented with similar circumstances, there's no way of telling what PCs would do. But many virtuous literary adventurers engage in criminal activity to meet their goals--justice over law. And, those adventurers often struggle with the hard choices presented to them.

Well, maybe not Slippery Jim deGriz, but many nonetheless. :devil:

I, for one, think presenting these hard choices to PCs (and thus the players) makes the game much more enjoyable. Of course, it helps if there's a level of maturity among the players, but you can choose who you play with.

Just my Cr 0.02 worth.

I like the "justice over law" phrasing. To me that's really the heart of all good stories, and even the adventures and double adventures for CT. I think that's part of why the game really thrived way back when, and perhaps why even D&D thrived.

Other than the two regretful anecdotes I told, I really can't think of any other gaming situation I've ever been in where people "got out of hand", so to speak. I really can't.

Not with SFB, not with Car Wars, not with Tunnels and Trolls, ... there's online hacking, but that's a different animal altogether.

I also think the need to understand math and science also helps eliminate potential problem players too.

I guess my real question may be for Marc Miller himself; i.e. "mister Avery (Marc Miller), or DonM or someone in the know, what horror stories brought on the good-guy-clause rules?"

In the end, I think if the game is module is authored correctly, the issue of morality will organically sprout from the players. They may steal a starship to achieve their aim, but they're not going to slaughter the crew (or so I would hope), and if they do, they'll understand the reprecussions.

While not RPG as such, here is a link to Penn and Teller's show "Bulls**t!" regarding violent online games. I think it apropos to this discussion;

WARNING; the language is kind of salty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtN-7ZB6Yp0

 

[shadowcat20]

First Ghost...I feel your pain....seen my fair share of EVIL parties in DnD games...never fun for me, Never ended well, and Never Ever lasted more then a session or two before the party turned on itself. Hence my comment earlier about Within limits....

I suspect the powers that be want to create a clean game that parents will not have issues with. Again with today's lawyer nonsense if they can blame a game for their failings as parents they will...and do often.

Now Firefly had a nice way of presenting "bad" jobs the party was taking....They were not stealing for people, they always went for the government or big corps. Very much like early Traveller products, or until the 3rd Imp settled down a bit anyway. No one has issues with taking from the government or big corps and when little people got involved (train heist) they turned their stolen goods back over and took the hit. Not everyone wants to be a Jedi, some like the grey area in between...and then there are those lost souls who always have to go too far. Trick is to help satisfy the Grey's without going too far.

As a parting shot keep in mind most of us posters are boomers 50 or older and have a very different way of seeing things then the 30 and under crowd. Sometimes we forget this.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I'll say this, and this'll be my final comment for a while.

I was in my car with a friend who was in my second gaming group waiting for another friend. He point blank asked me; "Don't you want to do the stuff we do in the game?"

He meant all the fire fights, all the heavy combat and other activities that we had gamed out (smuggling, piracy, what have you).

My answer, word for word; "No way!"

Thanks for reading.

 

[aramis]

Which was kind of my concern with Mister Miller's new established rules for writing for his game.

They are NOT new. You just had to send a SASE to GDW to find them out back in the 80's.

 

[salochin999]

(snip)

4) You'll note that everything I've typed so far blows past any concerns about published modules. I'll lay my cards on the table: Years ago for White Wolf Magazine I wrote a series of articles called The Interactive Toolkit. And one part was called "Why Do Modules Suck." The short version of the essay is that the since the PCs (via their Players) have to be invested in the module, there's no way for a module to work since some guy sitting in an office at West End Games has no clue who your Players are, so there's no way he can come up with a module that he knows will intrigue them. Moreover, since most modules in the late 80s through the 90s were all about building really specific "stories" that the PCs had to follow, the Players actually had very little agency about what choices their PCs could make. They couldn't say, "Let's go warn the target of the assassination," a third of the way through the adventure, since that would blow up the last two thirds of the module the GM had paid for. [Note: Of course, they could do that, and some GMs would roll with it. But then why buy the module.]

I also wrote these modules years ago. I know two things: People wanted them, and they kept publishers in business (and thus put money in my pocket). So I see why they were made. What I'm saying is, "Are they good for the table if they remove agency and choice about moral dimensions form the table?" I say, nope.

(snip)

I don't disagree with most of what you say but I think it's missing that modules can also be a kind of source book that can be used to describe the setting in a show not tell way and they can be invaluable for that imo.

I think this is particularly important for new GMs but also for players to know what kind of movie they are in so they can visualize it.

The other thing every good module should have imo is some kind of reusable resource like a ship or a deck plan or some weird exotic atmosphere, critter, climate etc. My favorite of that was the Research Station which I re-used a bunch of times as different things. This re-iterates the source book in disguise point.

So...personally I'm a big fan of modules but not necessarily as modules.

#

The other point which may just be me is a good module for a setting you like can turn into a short story in your head while reading it so they can be an entertainment in themselves.

#

Just to be clear I don't disagree with your main point about modules as modules but I think modules can make great "show don't tell" style source books.

 

[robject]

Modules CAN be useful for 'cons, if done well, right? Completely random set of players, no context except for the game. Some of the CT adventures were first run/tested at 'cons.

 

[creativehum]

Modules CAN be useful for 'cons, if done well, right? Completely random set of players, no context except for the game. Some of the CT adventures were first run/tested at 'cons.

They can.

I'm just sort of bored with them.

I haven't played a long term, digging into the setting game for a while (thought lots of one shots at cons). And right now they hold no interest for me.

Simply put, although most people don't see it this way, I see these two different kinds of play as two really different ways of playing. So different as to be almost alien to each other.

 

[Blue Ghost]

What strikes me about D&D modules, or adventure modules for any game OTHER than Traveller, is just how much rail roading there is. I mean even the ones with a sandbox like format you still have to follow a path and / or let events takes place.

 

[robject]

Supplement 4 has posted on the subject of the early Traveller adventures and has made the excellent point that they are mostly a framework upon which the referee can build his/her adventure for the playing group.

I also prefer the CT adventures and DA over a lot of what came later because of the freedom they offer for me to make stuff up. There are also hidden gems - I've posted before that the prelude to the Marooned/Marooned Alone DA would make a pretty good campaign in its own right - and it is detailed in a couple of paragraphs

This.

Adventures seldom survive first contact with the enemy. The CT adventures were frameworks. They set the stage, which the referee would use to the degree that the players frolicked within them.

I used to complain about how "open" or "vague" the old CT adventures were. Now I see that as an asset.

 

[salochin999]

What strikes me about D&D modules, or adventure modules for any game OTHER than Traveller, is just how much rail roading there is. I mean even the ones with a sandbox like format you still have to follow a path and / or let events takes place.

Yes, part of why I see the early Traveller modules as more like scene setting which is the bit I like.

 

[Blue Ghost]

This.

Adventures seldom survive first contact with the enemy. The CT adventures were frameworks. They set the stage, which the referee would use to the degree that the players frolicked within them.

I used to complain about how "open" or "vague" the old CT adventures were. Now I see that as an asset.

I think it depended on the adventure and seeds.

They are NOT new. You just had to send a SASE to GDW to find them out back in the 80's.

I stand corrected then.

Yes, part of why I see the early Traveller modules as more like scene setting which is the bit I like.

Just so. Some had more detail description than others, but not much. That verse the built in level of detail in many a D&D module.

 

[Blue Ghost]

So;

10) more adventures in the CT LBB format, with basic setups, little extraneous detail, but good write ups all the same.

 

[shadowcat20]

I guess to get back to the start about the future of Traveller, I would like to see some more CT stuff come out, or at least generic non Historical stuff that could be used by all systems. Updated computers, ship plans, robots, steller charts, and the like. As it is now, the only "live" Traveller system is Mongoose, alright maybe T5 qualifies also.

 

[GypsyComet]

Updated computers, ship plans, robots, steller charts, and the like.

In past years, this was called "a new edition". We all know how that turned out.

 

[WistfulD]

I guess to get back to the start about the future of Traveller, I would like to see some more CT stuff come out, or at least generic non Historical stuff that could be used by all systems. Updated computers, ship plans, robots, steller charts, and the like. As it is now, the only "live" Traveller system is Mongoose, alright maybe T5 qualifies also.

T5 doesn't qualify in my mind until they get a working core book out and see if anyone not-so-dedicated-to-Traveller-that-they-are-here-on-COTI shows interest.

I would love more CT stuff to come out, or more likely (since it has a publisher) Mongoose material with built-in CT conversions. Ships, Robots, and Computers yes. Stellar charts if and only if they are set up as isolated sectors that can be tossed into our TUs wherever we need them. We've had enough trouble with lack of blank spots on the map.

 

[Blue Ghost]

T5 doesn't qualify in my mind until they get a working core book out and see if anyone not-so-dedicated-to-Traveller-that-they-are-here-on-COTI shows interest.

I would love more CT stuff to come out, or more likely (since it has a publisher) Mongoose material with built-in CT conversions. Ships, Robots, and Computers yes. Stellar charts if and only if they are set up as isolated sectors that can be tossed into our TUs wherever we need them. We've had enough trouble with lack of blank spots on the map.

I don't want to get too sidetracked on T5, but are you saying that it might have been a better step to have gone back to CT in function and form?

 

[creativehum]

T5 doesn't qualify in my mind until they get a working core book out and see if anyone not-so-dedicated-to-Traveller-that-they-are-here-on-COTI shows interest.

I would love more CT stuff to come out, or more likely (since it has a publisher) Mongoose material with built-in CT conversions. Ships, Robots, and Computers yes. Stellar charts if and only if they are set up as isolated sectors that can be tossed into our TUs wherever we need them. We've had enough trouble with lack of blank spots on the map.

I'm curious about this:

What would you wanted added that isn't already printed and available for Classic Traveller in one form or another? I mean, between the Books, the Supplements, and the first 24 issues of the Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society, is there anything else to say?

I'm not saying there isn't. Or maybe you want it improved. I have no idea. I'd just love to hear more.

 

[mike wightman]

Many years ago Hunter Gordon - who brought us the T20 iteration - openly discussed the possibility of producing a Classic Traveller plus game.

This project died before it even got to the gestation phase, but that didn't stop many 'what would you do with CT+' threads.

And therein lay the problem - there is no consensus as to what improves CT.

Which is also the problem with later versions of the game, some liked the newer versions, others didn't, while others were quite hostile to change.

Personally I just combine cherry picking the best bits and homebrewing stuff that I can't find in the cherry picked material.

The fan base is what is keeping Traveller moving forward, this website has been a gold mine over the years for fresh ideas and creative input. MgT continues to produce new material, and the quality is definitely improving.

Will T5 ever move the setting forward? Only time will tell.

 

[Garnfellow]

Many years ago Hunter Gordon - who brought us the T20 iteration - openly discussed the possibility of producing a Classic Traveller plus game.

This project died before it even got to the gestation phase, but that didn't stop many 'what would you do with CT+' threads.

And therein lay the problem - there is no consensus as to what improves CT.

It sounded like the Avenger Classic Traveller (ACT) project came pretty darned close to contending for the "One System to Rule them All." Wish I had had a chance to look through the playtest documents.