• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Traveller's direction; history and future

Thanks for the info about the Dragon article. I'll try and track it down.

But you can see where I might have gotten the idea the timing was different. I just quoted Marc Miller saying that while he was sitting in front of STAR WARS for the first time Traveller was at the printers.
 
Thanks for pointing me to the Dragon magazine article. I think I once owned it! I think it's what got me to buy Imperium back in the day. (I played the hell out of it.)

Here is a link to Dragon Magazine #20, with an article by Marc Miller talking about the design process of Imperium. Here is the entirety of all references Marc makes to Star Wars in the article:
Now, I will also admit that Star Wars came out just before Origins 77; I was in line at a Chicago opening the first week, and I saw it five times in three weeks. It puzzled me that the title was Star Wars — I saw part of one skirmish, certainly not several wars flashing across the screen. Now Imperium is several wars. Deliberately, the final form of Imperium includes the concept of a campaign consisting of several (Man, quite a few) wars, separated by periods of peace and retrenchment. Now that’s a series of star wars. While I am on the subject of that movie, I would like to point out that the fighters in the game are not derived from the movie; they were part of the ship sqadron types that were developed earlier. But once having seen the movie, I couldn’t resist having one of the Imperial fighters color coded a sinister black.

The only Star Wars influence mentioned by Marc is that of one of the Imperial fighters on a counter from Imperium being marked black. There is no mention of any influence on Traveller at all. The rest of the article contain no other mention of Star Wars influencing either Traveller or Imperium in any other way.

Moreover, the timeline he offers reflects the timeline of the quote I previously posted:
Q: What impact did Star Wars and the whole slew of Science Fiction films have on your perceptions of Traveller as the game evolved beyond the Little Black Books?

A: Loren Wiseman and I drove to suburban Chicago to see Star Wars in the interval between when we sent Traveller to the printer and when it came back. We were both riveted to our seats, seeing this aspect of Traveller and that aspect of Traveller in scene. Making Star Wars stuff possible in Traveller seemed obvious to us: clearly there were players looking for that potential.

Remember that the original concept for Traveller was very GURPS-ish: a generic system that could emulate every possible part of SF. And in the first year, we did very little support beyond the basic rules. It was only after we started writing adventures that the Imperium started taking shape as a real background.

In both the Dragon article and the Q&A quote, it's clear that Marc saw Star Wars just before the release of both games, most likely far too late to have any impact on either game. To be really clear: As Traveller sits at the printer waiting to be printed, Marc is watching Star Wars for the first time.

To make concrete the points robject and I exchanged above, Traveller was pre-Star Wars in it's tone, feel, and underlying logic.


And to swing this post all the way back to the original post in this very long thread, please look at the second half of Marc's answer for the Q&A:

"Remember that the original concept for Traveller was very GURPS-ish: a generic system that could emulate every possible part of SF. And in the first year, we did very little support beyond the basic rules. It was only after we started writing adventures that the Imperium started taking shape as a real background."

I know that for most people Traveller is The Third Imperium. But reading that quote from Marc, I think my point on this thread stands: This was not the case at all when the LBBs 1-3 were published (both the '77 edition and the '81 edition).

The Imperium was not a given, it was not destined, and it was certainly not sewn into the game text as an expectation to be revealed later. Traveller did become the Third Imperium over time. But there is a dense rules set in those three little black books waiting for anyone to come along and make up worlds of adventure with their own politics, intrigue, adventure, and exploration that have nothing to do with GDW's house setting. In fact, that was what Marc intended for the game.
 
Last edited:
Some times people's memory plays tricks on them. What actually happened and what people some time later remember happened are not always the same.


Hans
 
Thanks for pointing me to the Dragon magazine article. I think I once owned it! I think it's what got me to buy Imperium back in the day. (I played the hell out of it.)

Here is a link to Dragon Magazine #20, with an article by Marc Miller talking about the design process of Imperium. Here is the entirety of all references Marc makes to Star Wars in the article:


The only Star Wars influence mentioned by Marc is that of one of the Imperial fighters on a counter from Imperium being marked black. There is no mention of any influence on Traveller at all. The rest of the article contain no other mention of Star Wars influencing either Traveller or Imperium in any other way.

Moreover, the timeline he offers reflects the timeline of the quote I previously posted:


In both the Dragon article and the Q&A quote, it's clear that Marc saw Star Wars just before the release of both games, most likely far too late to have any impact on either game. To be really clear: As Traveller sits at the printer waiting to be printed, Marc is watching Star Wars for the first time.

To make concrete the points Blue Ghost and I exchanged above, Traveller was pre-Star Wars in it's tone, feel, and underlying logic.


And to swing this post all the way back to the original post in this very long thread, please look at the second half of Marc's answer for the Q&A:

"Remember that the original concept for Traveller was very GURPS-ish: a generic system that could emulate every possible part of SF. And in the first year, we did very little support beyond the basic rules. It was only after we started writing adventures that the Imperium started taking shape as a real background."

I know that for most people Traveller is The Third Imperium. But reading that quote from Marc, I think my point on this thread stands: This was not the case at all when the LBBs 1-3 were published (both the '77 edition and the '81 edition).

The Imperium was not a given, it was not destined, and it was certainly not sewn into the game text as an expectation to be revealed later. Traveller did become the Third Imperium over time. But there is a dense rules set in those three little black books waiting for anyone to come along and make up worlds of adventure with their own politics, intrigue, adventure, and exploration that have nothing to do with GDW's house setting. In fact, that was what Marc intended for the game.

And I think ultimately guys like me and my friends, especially my first gaming group, saw "Star Wars" written all over the game. Not quite in a "serial numbers filed off" way, but with a high amount of similarity such that, to us at least, it seemed as if the game either knew about or was created after the film came out, and ergo it may have been codified with SW in mind.

Which baffled me even more because of descriptions of battledress or hostile environmental suits or other trappings, including the computers in Traveller, which seemed very 1950s like. The BD description was right right out of some 1950s era space movie, complete with the fishbowl helmet, and I was wondering what I was reading. Because even back then, during the 70s, I could imagine, as a kid, something, an armor system or suit of high tech armor, as being far more sleek and functional as per the blonde guy on the cover of Starter Traveller (one of the great pieces of game art).

When my friends and I first started playing our backdrop was somewhat nebulous, but not too far from Coruscant in the first three SW films or some of Syd Meads city concept paintings for various sci-fi films he's worked on. Where we weren't playing SW with Travller, we had a very set frame that was helped visualized with SW and much moreso with "The Empire Strikes Back", and specifically the Bespin / Cloud City sequence, which I always thought was the epitome of a Traveller setting.

A great deal is explained, but if Marc Miller is reading this, maybe he can see that I believe I am echoing a lot of fans perspective here on Traveller.
 
Well, there's no harm at all in creating a Star Wars setting with the Traveller rules, of course. Marc wanted people to do with it what they wanted. From his statement he was excited when he saw Star Wars and knew that the movie would feed that appetite for the folks who were playing Dungeons & Dragons.

More importantly, we look for inspiration when creating. Nothing is born whole cloth from imagination, and if you're a teenager or young adult trying to whip up an interstellar civilization of one kind or another, you're going to grab on to what is available. And, perhaps more importantly, you're going to grab onto what is vivid. And Star Wars sure is vivid. Lucas made a whiz bang soap-opera of the sort that had not been made for decades. In the previous ten years before Star Wars, we had Countdown, Journey to the Far Side of the Sun, Marooned, Moon Zero Two, Silent Running, Solaris, and Barbarella. Aside from Barbarella (which was a kind of gonzo-art-house version of pulp SF), Star Wars was about as different in tone and feel for an SF movie as anyone could imagine. It was a surprise. It startled. It made an impression because, despite having deep roots, it was new to the popular movie going culture of that year. (This is why no one in Hollywood thought the movie was going to work. Because Hollywood doesn't trust anything that is different than what is right in front of them.)

But, as you point out, the text doesn't really support, you know, Star Wars as such:
  • The majority of weapons look like something you might have found in the Viet Nam war.
  • The lack of whiz-bang weapons.
  • The Jump Drive technology for interstellar travel.
  • The computers.
  • The lack of FTL communication.
  • The "modest" size of the ships.
  • The Player Characters all being generated out of a military service.
  • A deadly combat system.
  • Missiles and sandcasters; no shields for space combat

Certainly there are Star Wars elements that can map to Traveller (and/or vica versa), like psionics, a noble class, a tramp freighter, and other details. But I think that's the brilliance of Basic Traveller. It's a tool box with lots of tools in it, to help people make what they want.

Using Star Wars as inspiration for setting makes perfect sense. But, as you said, you'll be bumping your head against a lot of things that simply don't match. (By the way: I agree with you about Bespin and Cloud City being a wonderful setting for a Traveller location.)

Fun Fact: I was never much of a Star Wars fan. (I was like, "So, everyone's fighting with everyone else. But why? What are the politics? What makes the Empire evil? What is the agenda of the Rebellion?" Seriously, I was a weird kid.)

It was SF movies out after Star Wars that always made me think of Traveller: Outland, Alien, Aliens. I watched those movies and thought, with surprise, "Hey, that reminds me of Traveller." Which I guess is kind of weird, because I was always trying to figure out what the look and feel of the game was supposed to be -- and these movies provided that after the game was published. I had always been trying to sort the game out from what what was inside the game, rather than trying to put something on the game that didn't quite fit.

It was actually older movies (as I came across them) that really made me see the vision of Traveller I'd like to play. Specifically, one night at a revival house I saw The Man Who Would Be King (John Huston, Michael Caine, Sean Connery) and I thought, "Holy cow, that's a Traveller adventure!"

In the movie we've got two soldiers drummed out of the military in a status conscious society. (Remember, the two of them do a whole routine knocking the queen and English nobility at the start of the film.) They admit they have limited skill sets (Soldiering, basically) and nowhere really to apply them now they they've been kicked out of the army. At the edge of a colonial empire they buy up a bunch of rifles and travel into the backwaters of Afghanistan where the guns will be a high-powered, advanced technology in order to train their own army and become kings themselves.
  • We had protagonists created out of a military background
  • We had high and low technology side-by-side (and used to exploit political dynamics)
  • We had the fringe of a colonial empire (the reference to 18th Century ships in Book 1 always made me think of earth's colonial empires)
  • We had adventuring into unknown backwaters and having adventures
  • We had protagonists raised and trapped in class-conscious society (a revelation, as I felt like I finally understood what Social Standing was for as a characteristic (not just a bit of background detail) but something that could actually be part of the character)
  • We had men with ambitions and skills and drive that would only find a home far from civilization, unleashed in extraordinary circumstances, and we'd see what would happen

None of this matches the color of an SF movie, per se. But the feel of the characters and the plot it seemed very much in tune what I had read in the Little Black Books out of the box.

But, of course, that's what I saw in those Traveller books in that little black box. Or, rather, I saw things in the LBBs and after I read them began seeing movies that matched what I saw in them.
 
Last edited:
? Was it inspired so much by movies or SF short stories and novels?

I think of Asimov's Foundation series; H. Beam Piper's Terro-Human Future History; Poul Anderson's Psychotechnic League, Polesotechnic League and Technic Civilization Saga; E.E. Doc Smith's Lensman and Henlein's stories; Oh yes and Andre Norton's stories especially the Solar Queen :) etc etc.

I am sure Star Trek probably figures in there as well.
 
? Was it inspired so much by movies or SF short stories and novels?

I think of Asimov's Foundation series; H. Beam Piper's Terro-Human Future History; Poul Anderson's Psychotechnic League, Polesotechnic League and Technic Civilization Saga; E.E. Doc Smith's Lensman and Henlein's stories; Oh yes and Andre Norton's stories especially the Solar Queen :) etc etc.

I am sure Star Trek probably figures in there as well.

I agree with it being mostly inspired by SF short stories and novels. (I really don't think Star Trek figured in much, but that's me.)

That's why I agree so much with robject's statement from a couple of pages back:

Imagine how SW could have/would have affected Traveller, had they written it one year later. Traveller is in some senses a distillation of science fiction that came before Star Wars.
 
? Was it inspired so much by movies or SF short stories and novels?

I think of Asimov's Foundation series; H. Beam Piper's Terro-Human Future History; Poul Anderson's Psychotechnic League, Polesotechnic League and Technic Civilization Saga; E.E. Doc Smith's Lensman and Henlein's stories; Oh yes and Andre Norton's stories especially the Solar Queen :) etc etc.

I am sure Star Trek probably figures in there as well.
Hefty dose of Dumarest?

The character quizzes in a couple of the LBB supplements hint at the literary influences.
 
^ Dumarest, oh yes I forgot! I actually have all those to read on my kindle. Just read a little of the first one, got to find the time!
 
? Was it inspired so much by movies or SF short stories and novels?

I think of Asimov's Foundation series; H. Beam Piper's Terro-Human Future History; Poul Anderson's Psychotechnic League, Polesotechnic League and Technic Civilization Saga; E.E. Doc Smith's Lensman and Henlein's stories; Oh yes and Andre Norton's stories especially the Solar Queen :) etc etc.

I am sure Star Trek probably figures in there as well.

I'd read the Dumarest books before hand so to me Traveller was pure Dumarest (which is why High Guard messed up my mental image of the Traveller universe) and that's largely how I played it at first i.e. players with no ship trying to travel somewhere so they arrive at a planet and have to find a job that will earn them enough money to pay for a passage to the next.

(It's a long time ago now but I think the first game I ran I made them POWs who got released and had to work their way home.)
 
(snip)

It was SF movies out after Star Wars that always made me think of Traveller: Outland, Alien, Aliens. I watched those movies and thought, with surprise, "Hey, that reminds me of Traveller." Which I guess is kind of weird, because I'd always trying to figure out what the look and feel of the game was supposed to be -- and these movies provided that after the game was published. I had always been trying to sort the game out from what what was inside the game, rather than trying to put something on the game that didn't quite fit.

It was actually older movies (as I came across them) that really made me see the vision of Traveller I'd like to play. Specifically, one night at a revival house I saw The Man Who Would Be King (John Huston, Michael Caine, Sean Connery) and I thought, "Holy cow, that's a Traveller adventure!"

(snip)

Yes definitely.
 
Actually, looking at the sources Marc credits, and the sources Lucas credits, Traveller and Star Wars draw from the same pool of sources. The same cannot be said for Star Trek.
 
I think that Star Trek might have popularized the orientation of the decks of the ship being perpendicular to the direction of travel, like a sea-going ship or an airplane. Before Trek, most spaceships, in the media and even in written fiction, were tail-landing ships (rockets). (My favorite: Chandler's Cmdr. Grimes)

This ship layout is about the only thing that Traveller took from Trek, IMO. But it has become pervasive in just about all space opera fiction. Despite the efforts of Winchell Chung's excellent website, Atomic Rockets.

I've often wondered what Traveller ships would be like, if Marc had made ships that had to land on their tail. Right now, I think the only official ship that does that is the Broadsword. (AHL's decks are like this too, but too big to land.)
 
I've often wondered what Traveller ships would be like, if Marc had made ships that had to land on their tail. Right now, I think the only official ship that does that is the Broadsword. (AHL's decks are like this too, but too big to land.)

The Broadsword is the only canon Traveler tail-sitter built to land. The family includes the AHL, the X-Boat Tender, and the P.F.Sloan. I think it also includes the Rock. It would include the X-Boat if that had maneuver drives. There are a couple more in the idiosyncratic Mongoose collection.

Ships with decks parallel to thrust date back to the Flash Gordon serials, When Worlds Collide, and others. The literary SF of the 50s and 60s saw both orientations, but at least two of Traveller's big literary inspirations used parallel decks.

The setting's tech assumptions accommodate both, and very few of the tail-sitter crowd seem inclined to expand the family themselves. The deckplan derby on G+ two years ago used a tailsitter for one round (after someone requested it) and got no entries for it despite having the decks already defined.
 
Trek is a bit of an odd duck because the devices in the program were there to propel the stories forward, as opposed to wowing the audience with devices around which the show orbited; i.e. "tech ⌧". And because of that the devices in the show tend to be a few tech levels beyond what's described in Traveller, though Traveller does address the tech in the TL chart.

That, verse something like the Logan's Run TV series, or the Planet of the Apes TV series, or something a little more recent, like Bab-5, Serenity / Firefly or either iteration of the Battlestar Galactica franchise, where the tech was more part of the setting.

Like I wrote in another thread, to my way of thinking at least, Trek is easily ported with Traveller, but kind of the Star Wars-ish thrust of Traveller, I think, tends to pull the game away from tackling Star Trek, which got its own RPGs anyway in the ensuing years.

Still, it would be most interesting to see how Traveller might tackle a Star Trek like zeitgeist. I imagine that's what the upcoming "high tech" supplements that were hinted at are all about.
 
Actually, looking at the sources Marc credits, and the sources Lucas credits, Traveller and Star Wars draw from the same pool of sources. The same cannot be said for Star Trek.

I'm sure there were a lot of sources but for me personally I'd been reading the Dumarest series just before I got the game so that was my first mental image.
 
Actually, looking at the sources Marc credits, and the sources Lucas credits, Traveller and Star Wars draw from the same pool of sources. The same cannot be said for Star Trek.

Lucas' sources seem to be Flash Gordon, and for the plot the movies The Hidden Fortress, and The Dam Busters. (Lucas tried to get the rights to Flash Gordon, failed, and Star Wars was his answer. At its heart Star Wars is pulp space opera from a movie serial.)

Traveller is aggressively not Flash Gordon*. The sources sure seem to be 50's and 60's Hard SF novels and short stories listed by others above.

If there's overlap between sources I'm not seeing them yet. Can you point them out to me? Because that would be fascinating and I'd love to know more.

* Aggressively not Flash Gordon in its essential and core presentation in the original boxed set. If one wants to make Flash Gordon one can. (And should!) But you'll be making most details up from scratch. In the original presentation of the game the most exotic weapons are the laser carbine and rifle. The personal combat and starship combat rules are wholly inappropriate to the feel of Flash Gordon. All technology for a Flash Gordon setting would be located in the upper third of the tech level chart -- which is a field of white as published. You'd need to rework character generation to figure out the terms of service for exotic, alien creatures, and so on, because the basic character generation doesn't feel Flash Gordon at all. (Flash was a polo player, after all. Like Luke in Star Wars, he begins as a novice in the field of interstellar adventure.)
 
Last edited:
Lucas' sources seem to be Flash Gordon, and for the plot the movies The Hidden Fortress, and The Dam Busters. (Lucas tried to get the rights to Flash Gordon, failed, and Star Wars was his answer. At it's heart Star Wars is pulp space opera from a movie serial.)
Tried to get the rights to Lord of the Rings and failed, too, hence the Gandalf-holding-up-the-Balrog, sacrificing-himself-and-coming-back-as-superbeing (Death Star= mines of Moria). And as well as Dam Busters, 633 Squadron was used for the assault on the Death Star trench (= fjord to the heavy water factory)...
 
I saw an interview with him about pitching the idea to King Features Syndicate (owners of the Flash Gordon property), and I can't recall whether they just rejected him outright, or wanted too much money. Either way he was forced to create his own whole cloth sci-fi universe, and it is arguably the largest and most successful sci-fi and movie franchise in history.

I think that speaks for being forced to create your own stuff when the people who own the thing you love deny you your dream. You have to go make your dream, so to speak.

And, of course, we all know what happened when King Features let mister B-movie himself, Dino De Laurentis, produce the Flash Gordon feature film. :rolleyes:

I think that's one sci-fi film that Traveller thankfully doesn't address, or rather it addresses the source material, so you can play Flash Gordon if you so choose, but I'm hard pressed to think anyone would want to.

p.s. I figured Willow was Lucas' rendition of a Tolkien tale. There's a better film in there somewhere.
 
I think that Star Trek might have popularized the orientation of the decks of the ship being perpendicular to the direction of travel, like a sea-going ship or an airplane. Before Trek, most spaceships, in the media and even in written fiction, were tail-landing ships (rockets). (My favorite: Chandler's Cmdr. Grimes)

This ship layout is about the only thing that Traveller took from Trek, IMO. But it has become pervasive in just about all space opera fiction. Despite the efforts of Winchell Chung's excellent website, Atomic Rockets.

I've often wondered what Traveller ships would be like, if Marc had made ships that had to land on their tail. Right now, I think the only official ship that does that is the Broadsword. (AHL's decks are like this too, but too big to land.)
A significant number of serials from the 40's have classic "rocket ships" that have horizontal decks. Both film and newspaper serials.
 
Back
Top