Treating your ship as a Character
- Thread starter BackworldTraveller
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I would question the quality of the programmers/programming used to make the AI. Look at the rules for writing your own software.
Microsoft in spaaaaaaaace!
Failure to close an argument may or may not cause an issue for some time...than whamo! You end up with the computer on the bomb the the film "Dark Star".
A limited AI sure, a full on one...hard pass.
Microsoft in spaaaaaaaace!
Failure to close an argument may or may not cause an issue for some time...than whamo! You end up with the computer on the bomb the the film "Dark Star".
A limited AI sure, a full on one...hard pass.
Condottiere
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ctrl alt del
kilemall
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Here’s a simple dirty one for CT- computer Model number = INT and EDU squared.
It doesn’t have skills per se as it’s disabled from autonomous action by design. If in the OTU, one would think Virus would highlight the reason for that engineering philosophy.
If one must and want shorthand for skill programs in lieu of specced software, I’d limit the skills to the model number.
Should mention for the OP that MgT has that middling level of AI with the expert programs that can give your computers, ship or vehicle or weapon/equipment, expert skill capabilities.
I like the game Privateers’ description for smart but not true AI, Synthetic Intelligence.
It doesn’t have skills per se as it’s disabled from autonomous action by design. If in the OTU, one would think Virus would highlight the reason for that engineering philosophy.
If one must and want shorthand for skill programs in lieu of specced software, I’d limit the skills to the model number.
Should mention for the OP that MgT has that middling level of AI with the expert programs that can give your computers, ship or vehicle or weapon/equipment, expert skill capabilities.
I like the game Privateers’ description for smart but not true AI, Synthetic Intelligence.
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Do you mean a computer (or robot brain) with INT 2 END 2 would be considered a computer 16 (as it would be (2+2)2)?
It seems quite powerful for spaceship combat, if you design a fighter with this robot brain, as it would be quite cheap (compared with computers) and, with Computer DM 16 it would confront a battleship...
Spinward Flow
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More like Model/9 computers are the equivalent of INT 9 and EDU 9.
kilemall
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Er no more like a model 2 but you are positing less EDU. INT 2 EDU 4.
Think CPU and storage as INT/EDU as per LBB8 but more specialized and integrated into the ship and a lot tougher.
kilemall
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Well INT 9 and EDU 81. By TL15 storage should be massive and the real limitation will be to utilize it in a coherent real-time manner without inducing a form of computer schizophrenia.
Condottiere
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Considering that computers can potentially throw unlimited processing power and/or storage at a problem, it may come down to the actual sophistication of the programme involved that can take advantage of those resources.
Spinward Flow
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No computer, short of actual artificial intelligence is that educated.
No, but it may be knowledgable.
Shadowrunner
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God made man in his own image, emotions and all. I think when robots reach a certain TL, they would exhibit, character, flaws, personalities, disorders. David in "Prometheus" and "Alien Covenant" is a great example. Mistakes Shelley for Byron and has all kinds of delusions and anti-social behaviours. Does certain things very well, but lacks empathy and love or faith.
In Blake's 7, Zen is the poor relation to Orac, yet there is still a certain amount of pathos and lifelike attributes.
I think convincing a sentient ship to attack or take damage would be different from leading humans. And would humans be led by the ship readily? I think these actions would be harder than imagined, the act of faith or love or self-sacrifice by a sentient ship.
Is it all down to programming, but then like David, robots will make their own minds up and draw conclusions about humans?
In Blake's 7, Zen is the poor relation to Orac, yet there is still a certain amount of pathos and lifelike attributes.
I think convincing a sentient ship to attack or take damage would be different from leading humans. And would humans be led by the ship readily? I think these actions would be harder than imagined, the act of faith or love or self-sacrifice by a sentient ship.
Is it all down to programming, but then like David, robots will make their own minds up and draw conclusions about humans?
and as a related question, thinking way back to the Ship Who Sang series: actual brains in starships vs AI. Presents all sorts of interesting ethical and philosophical questions, and ignores medical abilities, clone bodies and later SF ideas that would negate the need for that sort of thing. But definitely an issue that parallels this one. Throw in wafer jacks as part of that process, and essentially unlimited storage. and you have an actual character playing as a ship.
Though that is more transhumanist than I like my Traveller game, I present it here as related to the original question.
Though that is more transhumanist than I like my Traveller game, I present it here as related to the original question.
kilemall
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Exactly my point. Arguably the storage should be in something like 5th power exponential, but being able to use it requires constant maintenance, reconfiguring, etc. during which the ship's computer could act 'crazy'.
Come to think of it, that's what dreaming is, a lot of resorting of the day's events and concerns into optimizing the human mind- a great big reorg with symbolic junk output. So, maybe our ships dream.
kilemall
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May be why Model 1-3 is popular, still more deterministic then problem solving/trouble creating in addition to cheaper.
Also suggests that the computers need software support and at higher levels cyberpsychologist SI programmers to ride herd. As a quick and dirty rule, try dividing model numbers by 3, rounding down, to get the specialized computer crew count.
Kind of puts a spin on the old Kininur adventure, eh?
kilemall
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In this case I am positing a LOT of storage and a machine that gets into Library Data-10 territory.
Storage always was multiples of memory and CPU, modern systems are extending that to insane realms and of course with advances in materials, storage tech and math we can probably expect that much more available. Arguably a Model/9 computer should have an EDU/storage in the exponential millions vs. CPU 'INT'.
But the challenge then becomes making sense of such a sea of data. Google of course is a public example of that attempt, our friendly AI from the HG tournament days is another stab at arranging information in a usable way. My assumption here is that there is an upper limit to how much you can do in something approaching realtime and not drive the ship computer SI crazy. Numbers like Model/4 EDU 16 or Model/6 EDU 36 yields impressive capabilities without putting a god machine on board.
By TL15 you can probably load in most of the essential knowledge of your civilization and technology on board, much like the Star Trek computers.
In fact, those are pretty good models for what SI computer operations are like- not proactive except for routines like dealing with hull breach but the crew directs what the computer and therefore ship does. Science officer asks a specifically syntaxed question and it applies all the knowledge known to StarFleet to compose an answer.
Just don't let the damn thing near the holodeck, where strange human requests come out with some bad 'didn't mean that' results.
Spinward Flow
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Actually, a much simpler way to model this would be:
- CPU / model number = INT
- Storage / model number = EDU
- Model/1 = 2 CPU/4 Storage = 2 INT/4 EDU
- Model/1bis = 4 CPU/0 Storage = 4 INT/0 EDU
- Model/2 = 3 CPU/6 Storage = 2 INT/3 EDU
- Model/2bis = 6 CPU/0 Storage = 3 INT/0 EDU
- Model/3 = 5 CPU/9 Storage = 2 INT/3 EDU
- Model/4 = 8 CPU/15 Storage = 2 INT/4 EDU
- Model/5 = 12 CPU/25 Storage = 2 INT/5 EDU
- Model/6 = 15 CPU/35 Storage = 3 INT/6 EDU
- Model/7 = 20 CPU/50 Storage = 3 INT/7 EDU
- Model/8 = 30 CPU/70 Storage = 4 INT/9 EDU
- Model/9 = 40 CPU/90 Storage = 4 INT/9 EDU
In MT 101 vehicles book, when talking about using robot brains as computer for a craft, and with the CP syste mMT uses, it was specified a robot brain CP equivalent would be 250 CP per INT point. This would put even the model 9 quite below INT 1 (with CP multiple of 120, it would barely be INT 0.5), Mod 10 (TL16) would be jsut below INT 1 (CP multiple 200) and model 11 (TL 17), with a CP multiple of 1000, would be INT 4.
While this may seem low, see that it¡'s consistent with self aware computers appearing at TL 17...
See that this would mean any robot brain (whose apparent INT may reach TL, IITC) to be quite more powerful tha ncomputers, but in LBB8 again IIRC) is said that this is due to synaptic processors, whose reliability is lower than paralel processing, and so not trusted enough for spaceships (albeit this may well change at TL17, where over 50% synaptic processing becomes reliable)
Not sure how to treat those robot brains for computer equivalence i nspace combat, though...
While this may seem low, see that it¡'s consistent with self aware computers appearing at TL 17...
See that this would mean any robot brain (whose apparent INT may reach TL, IITC) to be quite more powerful tha ncomputers, but in LBB8 again IIRC) is said that this is due to synaptic processors, whose reliability is lower than paralel processing, and so not trusted enough for spaceships (albeit this may well change at TL17, where over 50% synaptic processing becomes reliable)
Not sure how to treat those robot brains for computer equivalence i nspace combat, though...
"Teach it phenomenology."
AI has personality. In other words, it is a person. This applies to a positronic computer as much as a brain that's been transplanted into a ship.
* It will act like any other player character or non-player character.
* It has self-determination.
* It has needs, desires, and goals.
You might have to pay it a salary based on its job. Or some form of compensation it's interested in.
Treating a ship like a slave is probably always a bad idea.
Same goes for any robot capable of replacing crewmembers.
Consider the Model/2 computer. If it were an NPC, it would look like this:
* able to perform any two starship skills at the same time
* task asset equal to TL
* requires 2 tons of space on the ship
* "salary" = MCr5 over 40 years (rolled into the mortgage)
As a task resolver, it's not really a decider, so you have to tell it what to do and it does it. At high TLs, it can do it well.
Now consider a robot crew. Robots which are capable like an NPC, are like this:
* has a skills list
* typically does one skill at a time, like other NPCs
* negotiates compensation
Compensation is interesting, since theoretically it might not need personal space. If it's a humanoid robot, though, or if it has a humanoid brain, then its psychology definitely will require personal space. It's likely to prefer payment in credits as opposed to anything else, just like any NPC, although just list any NPC this can vary by personality.
Robots which are incapable of filling an NPC role, meanwhile, are mechanisms for menial, dangerous, undesirable, or low-paying jobs. These are less likely to act like an NPC -or- a ship's computer. They'll be more like Roombas. You pay cash for them, and you own them as appliances. A Multi-Use Labor Element (M.U.L.E.).
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Not necessarly...
Again talking about MT:101 Vehicles, it is specified that a robot brain may substitute a computer and a crewmember, and they don't need to have any personality, nor reuiring a salary...
Robots (or their brains) can replace crewmembers in some mechanical positions (as cargo nadling, or even gunner or pilots), and don't need a personality for this work, though they would probably have less immaginative sol utions to unforeseen problems.
IMHO, the most difficult positions to fill up with robots ( at least until t ure AI and probably self awareness is achieved) are the ones requiring human interaction, as stewards or purers.
As per sentient ships, I always think on Blake's 7 or My Flies when they are named, and in the former case it's higher than standard TL, while in the latter case it has a human brain as core.
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