Treating your ship as a Character

[robject]

Robots (or their brains) can replace crewmembers in some mechanical positions (as cargo handling, or even gunner or pilots), and don't need a personality for this work, though they would probably have less imaginative solutions to unforeseen problems.

In general I agree: easy job = robot.

I think that handling cargo can be an easy job, managed by light supervision, and in fact freightmaster appears to be a rare crew position. Perhaps for that very reason.

---

But I think that most crew positions are not easy, and require personhood, exactly because of the decisions brought to bear... and the social aspect of Traveller as a whole.

I also worry about Loren's Law #2, where removing crew can unbalance the game. It's not that you can't do that, but rather you have to understand why it's there in the first place before you modify it.

Law #2 suggests that crew positions are currently already "replaced" to a large degree as-is. Consider that you only need one crew on the smallest starships. Also consider that if a merchant could free up space and expenses, then they all would, and are already doing it.

 

[robject]

Say I buy five robots for MCr5 when I design my starship, and roll their costs into the mortgage.

Robot A is Pilot-3.
Robot B is Astrogator-3.
Robot C is Engineer-3.
Robot D is Medic-3.
Robot E is Steward-3.

I also make sure the ship has a Model/3 computer installed (cost rolled into mortgage).
I let the ship's computer handle the guns. I guess this is a 300t type U armed packet.

They're robots, so do they need personal space? Let's pretend that they don't -- no personality, no drives, no motivations.
No life support costs.
Maintenance cost is rolled into the ship maintenance cost.
No salary.
No negotiation, competition, arguments, or ideas.


I get a full crew requiring no salary. I get 20 tons of extra mission space -- payload or a vehicle.
My only life support cost is what my player character uses, and passengers.


This is superior to anything in Traveller.


In what universe would this not be 100% the rule aboard every free trader, far trader, merchant, and freighter?

 

[Spinward Flow]

I also worry about Loren's Law #2, where removing crew can unbalance the game. It's not that you can't do that, but rather you have to understand why it's there in the first place before you modify it.

Even something as "simple" as gunnery in which there is going to be massive computer assistance (given the ranges and sensors involved in fire control), you still want to have a "man in the loop" firing solution lest you wind up with a "robots killing people" situation.

To be fair, I'm assuming that "man in the loop" circumstance basically amounts to designating targets (hit this one, not that one) for attack and giving authorization for the computers to achieve a firing solution and shoot, rather than being a "fire when I hit the button because I hit the button" kind of deal. That way the automation waits for a target lock on firing solution "tone" before actually firing AFTER the authorization is given (so as to not waste shots). So less "point and click" and more of a "designate and authorize" kind of arrangement for fire control.

 

[Spinward Flow]

In what universe would this not be 100% the rule aboard every free trader, far trader, merchant, and freighter?

Crew and life support are "expensive" in starship terms.
2 or 4 tons displacement per crew member (staterooms) plus Cr2500-5000 per Skill-1 crew member per 2 weeks (skill type dependent). That adds up pretty quickly in terms of reduced cargo/passenger capacity and revenues lost to overhead costs.

 

[robject]

Again talking about MT:101 Vehicles, it is specified that a robot brain may substitute a computer and a crewmember, and they don't need to have any personality, nor requiring a salary...

DGP 101 Vehicles, page 2, notes that a robot brain replaces the computer and one crew member. It then goes on to state that true intelligence doesn't show up until TL 17. For DGP, this means "trustworthiness" arrives at TL 17.

I note that they refer to Book 8 (Robots) for rules on brains.

---

GDW Book 8: Robots suggests TL 13 is where A.I. begins, albeit in a crude form (p19). It then concludes with TL 17, which calls these things "artificial minds". I assume that correlates with DGPs thoughts in 101V.

I do get bogged down with all the talk about synaptic units.

---

The Traveller5 model helps in some ways and perhaps not in others. For one thing, it forces a choice: either your computer is a computer, or it's a brain. If it's intelligent, it is a person.

T5 also explicitly states that Robots, as used in the rules, are a TL 13 phenomenon.

However, it also states that Brains, used in genetic engineering, vehicles, and so on, starts at TL 11.

And then it drops the bomb that "True AI / Artificial Intelligence" is at TL 16, which is not that far off from Book 8.

So.

 

[BackworldTraveller]

The sum of the above seems to be that having a non-human (in this case mechanical) intelligence in a non-traditional body is a bad idea.

And yet I was under the impression that Traveller was all about exploring how humans interact with just such things. One of the great things about Traveller (for me) has been that a character is a character and that it doesn't have to have two legs, a biological basis and breath. It doesn't have to have 5 (or however you count it) senses and it could be anything. It might be difficult to play - but it wasn't impossible. I was always very disappointed by the Robot/Non-Robot split that appeared in Book 8! That a character could be a biological ape or a space station was always an attraction for me.

 

[whartung]

I don't think you can get away with a non-sophont Steward, not for High Passage at least.

With the other 4, they run (including life support) at 650KCr per year. So, the payback for the robots is < 10 years.

However, the robots won't do much for you in a bar fight.

 

[Spinward Flow]

However, the robots won't do much for you in a bar fight.

They're reasonably decent at taking fire ...

 

[robject]

I never really read Book 8. I read the JTAS article that spawned it, but didn't grok it.

[...] I was under the impression that Traveller was all about exploring how humans interact with just such things. One of the great things about Traveller (for me) has been that a character is a character and that it doesn't have to have two legs, a biological basis and breath. [...]

Traveller5 helps by tying capability to agency. Computers lack agency (until TL 16); brains, however, have it. And "agency" actually means personality, which is more than just the ability to make decisions, but that's the most obvious bit.



=> A brain can be added to a ship's computer. This makes the ship, for all practical purposes, a character.
=> Same goes for robots.
=> That includes vehicles, missiles, and even certain types of armor.

 

[robject]

Intelligent Starships

Now that I've read out the Traveller5 position, what does that mean for the players?

First, the referee may rule that the ship is an NPC. In this case he has a powerful new way to interact with the players -- a character that can also access the ship's functions. The character could, possibly, warn the players about impending disasters.

If *I* were running an NPC ship, I would decide how valuable he is to the players, and negotiate terms accordingly. I'd have to figure out a way to do it that doesn't make the players simply yank out the brain and run with an unintelligent starship.

Second, the referee may allow a player to play the ship. In this case, the player is already a free agent, so he will decide what sort of character the 'ship' is, and what its demands are. The referee, of course, will probably explain to the entire team that the character is a member of the group and should be treated as such.

 

[McPerth]

GDW Book 8: Robots suggests TL 13 is where A.I. begins, albeit in a crude form (p19). It then concludes with TL 17,

That's why I distinguish among AI (which could also mean Apparent Intelligence), that appears at TL 13 and self awareness (or sentience), that is what appears at TL 17, and which represents the whole complexity of true intelligence, including the non deterministic parts of it. That's what in LBB8 is done by the synaptic processors, but whose reliability is limited by TL up to 17.

This apparent intelligence allows wonders to computers, but they remain deterministic, and so the can be cheated or their moves foreseen (at least to aa degree). This makes them less resolutive in unexpected situations, and that's what makes them autonomous (if their software allows it), but not independent in acting, and makes the sophont being still needed (aside from probable legal issues) except for the most rutinary situations.

If you look at my craft/ship designs (see this post for the links, you'll find some that are robotized, but all of them except the fighter drone are for quite ruttirnary actions (courier, cargo barges), and for the fighter drone I specify they must be human (or sohpont) led or they have a penalty in initiative rolls.

To be fair, I'm assuming that "man in the loop" circumstance basically amounts to designating targets (hit this one, not that one) for attack and giving authorization for the computers to achieve a firing solution and shoot, rather than being a "fire when I hit the button because I hit the button" kind of deal. That way the automation waits for a target lock on firing solution "tone" before actually firing AFTER the authorization is given (so as to not waste shots). So less "point and click" and more of a "designate and authorize" kind of arrangement for fire control.

IMHO the sophont must do something more than this, as if (s)he only designates targets and leave the computer handle the rest, skill would be irrelevant, and it is not...

 

[McPerth]

Now that I've read out the Traveller5 position, what does that mean for the players?

To me, this would mean that the ship, being self aware, has its own feelings and interests. He's unlike to allow other characters to use the manual controls (if any), except in dire emergencies. it would be as you allowing someone to control your heart, or your limbs.

He also may decide by himself where to go, or if fight is worth the damage it can endure (being self aware, he's conscious about the possibility of being destroyed, and probably wants to live as anyone. Does it feel the equivalent to pain when damaged?).

Of course, he can also feel more sympathy for one player or another (maybe one has mistreated him, thinking on him just as a machine?), etc.

In few words: the ship would just be another NPC, with his own interests and desires, but controlling the whole players' mobility.

 

[kilemall]

Actually, a much simpler way to model this would be:

• CPU / model number = INT
• Storage / model number = EDU

Using LBB5.80 numbers for this in a "round to nearest integer" fashion we wind up with the following table:

• Model/1 = 2 CPU/4 Storage = 2 INT/4 EDU
• Model/1bis = 4 CPU/0 Storage = 4 INT/0 EDU
• Model/2 = 3 CPU/6 Storage = 2 INT/3 EDU
• Model/2bis = 6 CPU/0 Storage = 3 INT/0 EDU
• Model/3 = 5 CPU/9 Storage = 2 INT/3 EDU
• Model/4 = 8 CPU/15 Storage = 2 INT/4 EDU
• Model/5 = 12 CPU/25 Storage = 2 INT/5 EDU
• Model/6 = 15 CPU/35 Storage = 3 INT/6 EDU
• Model/7 = 20 CPU/50 Storage = 3 INT/7 EDU
• Model/8 = 30 CPU/70 Storage = 4 INT/9 EDU
• Model/9 = 40 CPU/90 Storage = 4 INT/9 EDU

This prevents computers from becoming "miracle machines" capable of outclassing the crew by orders of magnitude (in both intelligence AND education) at all times.

<Shrug> that's fine, as I keep on saying Traveller is a scifi story simulator not a tech/space one, and player/human agency is a thing. I'm just comfy with making my high tech REALLY high tech and not just an iteration of extant technology.

 

[kilemall]

The way to do ship robots is to have a bunch of dumbots with all the maneuver and tools, and have a robot server that's stationary, tied into ship power but has emergency backup.

That way you can max out the brain and not buy 5x.

I did seriously look into replacing the ship computers with LBB8 brains, but decided they were too darn small and not robust enough. They are related technologies but fitted for different purposes.

I would in general limit those ship computer INT agency to following orders with some problem solving for those orders, or doing prearranged things like damage control/emergency maneuvers intrinsic to it's ship systems coordination function.

 

[mike wightman]

Travel to Cymbeline, ask a chip if it wants to become a Traveller, install it in the ship's computer.

Done.

There are even rules for it.

 

[Condottiere]

Apparent Intelligence - you could have a sophisticated enough programme, plus machine learning, so that the programme acts like it's self aware.

 

[McPerth]

so that the programme acts like it's self aware.

Acting like is not the same of truly being...

Emotional simulation software may allow a pseudo-bio to simulate them, but it will not have emotions. A self aware one will have them, and may be scared, not only simulate it is, just to give an example.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Travel to Cymbeline, ask a chip if it wants to become a Traveller, install it in the ship's computer.

Done.

There are even rules for it.

That whole adventure was one of the biggest enabling ERRORS to be found within the OTU.
Remove that bit of derp from the writing and you don't have Virus.

Sure, it results in an ATU ... but a far better ATU that doesn't involve "magitech psionic chips" with more Plot Armor than all the major races put together.

 

[mike wightman]

Silicon based life has been a sci fi staple for years - and the chips are not psionic...

but it is the rules for such chips that are the interesting bit.

 

[robject]

In the end, you have a mix of rather dumb systems that can run things in boring circumstances,
and you have things that are, for all intents and purposes, characters.

If they're dumb systems, then they are just another hunk of machinery, with all the related benefits and problems.

If they're characters, then they are "people", with all the related benefits and problems.

---

Note that in T5 you can run a robot through the career process.



Imagine running a starship through the career process............