• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Trillion Credit Squadron

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:

A serious question here and not an insult, have you ever played a TCS campaign?
An equally serious answer: no, I have not, I've just looked at the way the system works.

The only way Esperanza can win battles against her higher-TL opponents is to smother them under a wave of missile boats. That means there will be a lot of casulties on both sides.
Granted.

Every battle Esperanza wins will be through attrition. She wins when her opponent runs out of ships. Geting to that point means that Esperanza is going to go through quite a few ships herself. Her repair/new construction costs are much higher. She needs to repair/rebuild her rider squadrons and missile boat flotillas after every major battle.
If 'major battle' means 'has taken out an enemy world', that's already proof that Esperanza is somewhat overpowered. That's not to say that Esperanza is guaranteed to win; I wouldn't say that at all. However, is Esperanza harder to play than Nc and Sb, both of which have to deal with her?
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:

A serious question here and not an insult, have you ever played a TCS campaign?
An equally serious answer: no, I have not, I've just looked at the way the system works.

The only way Esperanza can win battles against her higher-TL opponents is to smother them under a wave of missile boats. That means there will be a lot of casulties on both sides.
Granted.

Every battle Esperanza wins will be through attrition. She wins when her opponent runs out of ships. Geting to that point means that Esperanza is going to go through quite a few ships herself. Her repair/new construction costs are much higher. She needs to repair/rebuild her rider squadrons and missile boat flotillas after every major battle.
If 'major battle' means 'has taken out an enemy world', that's already proof that Esperanza is somewhat overpowered. That's not to say that Esperanza is guaranteed to win; I wouldn't say that at all. However, is Esperanza harder to play than Nc and Sb, both of which have to deal with her?
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
If 'major battle' means 'has taken out an enemy world', that's already proof that Esperanza is somewhat overpowered.
Anthony,

Yes, Esperanza can take out either Sb or Nc once. Given TCS' repair rules and construction rates; not to mention the delay in using captured starports, the effort Es exerts to take out either Sb or Nc will leave her open to counterstroke she cannot resist.

With most of her expeditionary fleet destroyed or damaged within the system she just captured, another opponent or another fleet belonging to the original opponent can easily send her packing. Unless left alone for upwards of a year, Es will lose Sb or Nc to the first fleet that comes knocking.

[/qb]That's not to say that Esperanza is guaranteed to win; I wouldn't say that at all. However, is Esperanza harder to play than Nc and Sb, both of which have to deal with her? [/QB]
Yes. First and foremost, she had no good chance at gaining allies.

As a wargame, TCS resembles Diplomacy more than an eight-way free-for-all. Neither Sb or Nc will ally with her for fear of being swallowed once the alliance achieves it's goals. She can approach the powers on the other side of Sb and Nc; New Home, Neubayern, and Joyuese, but they too will only remain allied for short periods. No power, no matter how far from Esperanza, wants her to gain control of a starport/world long enough to use it to imporve her TL.

Second, she has a big punch - despite having to spend for the tankers and fuel depots the other powers don't require - but that punch can only be used once. At great cost, she can take Sb or Nc, not both. Defending her conquest will prove even harder. As I mentioned above, no one wants Es sitting on a starport/world long enough to improve her TL

In many games, Es 'forts up' and 'nibbles' at the small fry. She grabs Zuflucht and Herzenlust, annoys Sb off Gloire, maybe pokes into Orphee a bit. If given the time, with each time small fry 'conquered', she lifts SDBs and monitors into the system to improve her defenses and keep her jump2 expeditionary fleet free for other potential operations. If given the time, she can fort up pretty well and maybe knock off a weakened Sb or Nc in midgame. Es is rarely left alone however.

Sb and Nc usually ally in some combination against her. That alliance runs the gamut from full invasion to 'tooth pulling'; i.e. constant small strikes to wear down Es' force levels. The other powers usually enter the picture too; a Serendip-Neubayern alliance or a New Colchis-Joyuese alliance for example.

I keep bringing up Diplomacy as an analogy. You can study the Diplomacy system too and determine that the two 'Witches'; England and Turkey, are powerful. When you play the game however, the reality is very different. Because all the other players know about the 'Witches', they take steps to contain/control them thus making playing the 'Witches' very hard indeed. The same holds true with Esperanza.

She can win, or prosper, if she is left alone. However, none of the other players will leave her alone for that very reason.

Esperanza is a paper tiger with a heavy punch she can use but once. She needs to bide her time; if she's given any, and very carefully judge when to throw that single punch. She'll very rarely get another chance and she'll very rarely have the time to repair/construct a second one.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
If 'major battle' means 'has taken out an enemy world', that's already proof that Esperanza is somewhat overpowered.
Anthony,

Yes, Esperanza can take out either Sb or Nc once. Given TCS' repair rules and construction rates; not to mention the delay in using captured starports, the effort Es exerts to take out either Sb or Nc will leave her open to counterstroke she cannot resist.

With most of her expeditionary fleet destroyed or damaged within the system she just captured, another opponent or another fleet belonging to the original opponent can easily send her packing. Unless left alone for upwards of a year, Es will lose Sb or Nc to the first fleet that comes knocking.

[/qb]That's not to say that Esperanza is guaranteed to win; I wouldn't say that at all. However, is Esperanza harder to play than Nc and Sb, both of which have to deal with her? [/QB]
Yes. First and foremost, she had no good chance at gaining allies.

As a wargame, TCS resembles Diplomacy more than an eight-way free-for-all. Neither Sb or Nc will ally with her for fear of being swallowed once the alliance achieves it's goals. She can approach the powers on the other side of Sb and Nc; New Home, Neubayern, and Joyuese, but they too will only remain allied for short periods. No power, no matter how far from Esperanza, wants her to gain control of a starport/world long enough to use it to imporve her TL.

Second, she has a big punch - despite having to spend for the tankers and fuel depots the other powers don't require - but that punch can only be used once. At great cost, she can take Sb or Nc, not both. Defending her conquest will prove even harder. As I mentioned above, no one wants Es sitting on a starport/world long enough to improve her TL

In many games, Es 'forts up' and 'nibbles' at the small fry. She grabs Zuflucht and Herzenlust, annoys Sb off Gloire, maybe pokes into Orphee a bit. If given the time, with each time small fry 'conquered', she lifts SDBs and monitors into the system to improve her defenses and keep her jump2 expeditionary fleet free for other potential operations. If given the time, she can fort up pretty well and maybe knock off a weakened Sb or Nc in midgame. Es is rarely left alone however.

Sb and Nc usually ally in some combination against her. That alliance runs the gamut from full invasion to 'tooth pulling'; i.e. constant small strikes to wear down Es' force levels. The other powers usually enter the picture too; a Serendip-Neubayern alliance or a New Colchis-Joyuese alliance for example.

I keep bringing up Diplomacy as an analogy. You can study the Diplomacy system too and determine that the two 'Witches'; England and Turkey, are powerful. When you play the game however, the reality is very different. Because all the other players know about the 'Witches', they take steps to contain/control them thus making playing the 'Witches' very hard indeed. The same holds true with Esperanza.

She can win, or prosper, if she is left alone. However, none of the other players will leave her alone for that very reason.

Esperanza is a paper tiger with a heavy punch she can use but once. She needs to bide her time; if she's given any, and very carefully judge when to throw that single punch. She'll very rarely get another chance and she'll very rarely have the time to repair/construct a second one.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Ok, I think the argument is philosophical. I think that a faction which is strong enough that others must ally against it is problematic for a game, even if that faction doesn't reliably win.
 
Ok, I think the argument is philosophical. I think that a faction which is strong enough that others must ally against it is problematic for a game, even if that faction doesn't reliably win.
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
Ok, I think the argument is philosophical. I think that a faction which is strong enough that others must ally against it is problematic for a game, even if that faction doesn't reliably win.
Anthony,

Fair enough. I call it 'play balance'.

Remember, given both lengthy construction times and the long amount of time before TL can be 'learned', no alliance need solely deal with Esperanza for the entire game. Brief alliances are usually more than norm, a single campaign every couple of years or so to put Esperanza back on her heels or divest her of Serendip or New Colchis.

Players in Diplomacy deal with the 'Witches' in the same manner.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by Anthony:
Ok, I think the argument is philosophical. I think that a faction which is strong enough that others must ally against it is problematic for a game, even if that faction doesn't reliably win.
Anthony,

Fair enough. I call it 'play balance'.

Remember, given both lengthy construction times and the long amount of time before TL can be 'learned', no alliance need solely deal with Esperanza for the entire game. Brief alliances are usually more than norm, a single campaign every couple of years or so to put Esperanza back on her heels or divest her of Serendip or New Colchis.

Players in Diplomacy deal with the 'Witches' in the same manner.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Just in the opening stages of starting up a TCS Islands Campaign. My group ran several of these back in the 80's and early 90's.

We used the original HG/TCS combat rules at first, and qucikly migrated into a house rules system as the paperwork mounted up and we developed carpal tunnel syndrome from all the die rolling.

This time around we are going to try the BITS Power Projection:Fleet system. (Basically the game Full Thrust converted for the Traveller universe). We've played out a few skirmishes and have decided it give it a go.

Anyone have any experience with this system before we get in too deep to stop?
 
Just in the opening stages of starting up a TCS Islands Campaign. My group ran several of these back in the 80's and early 90's.

We used the original HG/TCS combat rules at first, and qucikly migrated into a house rules system as the paperwork mounted up and we developed carpal tunnel syndrome from all the die rolling.

This time around we are going to try the BITS Power Projection:Fleet system. (Basically the game Full Thrust converted for the Traveller universe). We've played out a few skirmishes and have decided it give it a go.

Anyone have any experience with this system before we get in too deep to stop?
 
I haven't played Power Projection, but I have played Full Thrust a few times. It seems like a solid system to me, though I prefer Starmada. For expertise on tactical spaceship games in general a good place to visit would be Starship Combat News.
 
I haven't played Power Projection, but I have played Full Thrust a few times. It seems like a solid system to me, though I prefer Starmada. For expertise on tactical spaceship games in general a good place to visit would be Starship Combat News.
 
Gents,

PP:E and PP:F are great games.

kc130flyer,

One way to avoid Carpal Tunnel Syndrome in TCS is to use the statistical die roll resolution rules for TCS that were published in JTAS.

Simply put, in 36 rolls you'll know you'll get so many 2s, 3s, 4s, etc. so you can apply the probability for rolling; say 8+, to the number of batteries involved and get a certain number of hits.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Gents,

PP:E and PP:F are great games.

kc130flyer,

One way to avoid Carpal Tunnel Syndrome in TCS is to use the statistical die roll resolution rules for TCS that were published in JTAS.

Simply put, in 36 rolls you'll know you'll get so many 2s, 3s, 4s, etc. so you can apply the probability for rolling; say 8+, to the number of batteries involved and get a certain number of hits.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Power Projection:Fleet is a good game, and will allow space combats to be more detailed than High Guard but you will pay for that in more time and controlling more than about a dozen ships gets very confusing.

Given that the worlds in TCS can produce many, many more ships than that I'm not sure how useful PP:F would be as the main combat system for a TCS campaign.

If you want to use PP:F for your combat system I'd greatly reduce the number of ships in your TCS campaign.
 
Power Projection:Fleet is a good game, and will allow space combats to be more detailed than High Guard but you will pay for that in more time and controlling more than about a dozen ships gets very confusing.

Given that the worlds in TCS can produce many, many more ships than that I'm not sure how useful PP:F would be as the main combat system for a TCS campaign.

If you want to use PP:F for your combat system I'd greatly reduce the number of ships in your TCS campaign.
 
Serendip Belt Light Cruiser
CL K8315F3-391100-888C9-0 MCr. 16,210.647 19,000 tons
Bearing 4 33116 Crew 314
Batteries 4 33116 TL 12
Cargo: 1.5 ton locker Frozen Watch Fuel: 6,650 tons EP: 950 Agility: 0 Shipboard Security Detail: 19 Marines: 150
Craft: 1 x 100T Shuttle, 3 x 4T Air Rafts
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/6fib Computer 1 x Factor 1 Nuclear Damper 1 x Factor 1 Meson Screen
Architects Fee: MCr 162.106 Cost in Quantity: MCr 12,968.517
Jump 3 L-Hyd Drop Tanks, included in price
 
Esperanza Missile Boat
MB-A1267E2-470000-32008-0 MCr. 2,213.455 1,900 tons
Bearing 1 32 1 Crew 44
Batteries 1 32 1 TL 11
Cargo: 1 ton locker Fuel: 513 tons EP: 133 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 2 Marines: 8 Drop Capsules: 2 (plus 6 Ready)
Craft: 1 x 20T Launch, 1 x 4T Grav APC
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/5fib Computer
Architects Fee: MCr 22.135 Cost in Quantity: MCr 1,770.764
Jump 2 L-Hyd Drop Tanks included in the price
 
Back
Top