Trillion Credit Squadron

[The Oz]

If we use FFW as the basis to determine the ground and space forces available to the worlds of the Island Subsectors, we get:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">World UPP Def. Bns. Mobile Bns SDBs Squadrons
Zuflucht C445720-8 20 2 1 0
Esperanza A674ABC-B 12K 1x10, 5x1C 12C 3
St. Hilaire B579763-A 15 1 1 0
Gloire C764567-9 1 0 0 0
Serendip Belt A000959-C 12C 1x20, 1x1C 120 2
New Colchis A8959AA-C 12C 1x20, 1x1C 120 2
Herzenlust E995765-6 30 3 0 0
Topas D120899-5 3C 1x10, 1x20 0 0
Joyeuse A7899B9-C 12K 1x10, 5x1C 120 2

Quichotte E576667-6 3 0 0 0
Neubayern A7889C9-C 12K 1x10, 5x1C 120 2
New Home A565857-D 1K 1C 15 1
Colchis B676898-9 150 1x5, 1x10 10 1
Acadie C868563-9 1 0 0 0
Sansterre A87A943-C 12C 1x20, 1x1C 120 2
Amondiage A5629A9-C 12K 1x10, 5x1C 120 2
St. Denis D735764-7 20 2 1 0</pre>[/QUOTE]Done this way, Esperanza doesn't look quite so much like the 800-kiloton gorilla. Its army isn't any bigger than several other worlds, the feared Esperanza fleet is only one squadron more than anyone else, and Esperanza is still TL11 to boot.

The interesting world is Colchis: under these rules it has a decent army and it's the only minor world to boast its own squadron of capital ships.

 

[The Oz]

If we use FFW as the basis to determine the ground and space forces available to the worlds of the Island Subsectors, we get:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">World UPP Def. Bns. Mobile Bns SDBs Squadrons
Zuflucht C445720-8 20 2 1 0
Esperanza A674ABC-B 12K 1x10, 5x1C 12C 3
St. Hilaire B579763-A 15 1 1 0
Gloire C764567-9 1 0 0 0
Serendip Belt A000959-C 12C 1x20, 1x1C 120 2
New Colchis A8959AA-C 12C 1x20, 1x1C 120 2
Herzenlust E995765-6 30 3 0 0
Topas D120899-5 3C 1x10, 1x20 0 0
Joyeuse A7899B9-C 12K 1x10, 5x1C 120 2

Quichotte E576667-6 3 0 0 0
Neubayern A7889C9-C 12K 1x10, 5x1C 120 2
New Home A565857-D 1K 1C 15 1
Colchis B676898-9 150 1x5, 1x10 10 1
Acadie C868563-9 1 0 0 0
Sansterre A87A943-C 12C 1x20, 1x1C 120 2
Amondiage A5629A9-C 12K 1x10, 5x1C 120 2
St. Denis D735764-7 20 2 1 0</pre>[/QUOTE]Done this way, Esperanza doesn't look quite so much like the 800-kiloton gorilla. Its army isn't any bigger than several other worlds, the feared Esperanza fleet is only one squadron more than anyone else, and Esperanza is still TL11 to boot.

The interesting world is Colchis: under these rules it has a decent army and it's the only minor world to boast its own squadron of capital ships.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by The Oz:
If we use FFW as the basis to determine the ground and space forces available to the worlds of the Island Subsectors, we get:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">World UPP Def. Bns. Mobile Bns SDBs Squadrons
Zuflucht C445720-8 20 2 1 0
Esperanza A674ABC-B 12K 1x10, 5x1C 12C 3
St. Hilaire B579763-A 15 1 1 0
Gloire C764567-9 1 0 0 0
Serendip Belt A000959-C 12C 1x20, 1x1C 120 2
New Colchis A8959AA-C 12C 1x20, 1x1C 120 2
Herzenlust E995765-6 30 3 0 0
Topas D120899-5 3C 1x10, 1x20 0 0
Joyeuse A7899B9-C 12K 1x10, 5x1C 120 2

Quichotte E576667-6 3 0 0 0
Neubayern A7889C9-C 12K 1x10, 5x1C 120 2
New Home A565857-D 1K 1C 15 1
Colchis B676898-9 150 1x5, 1x10 10 1
Acadie C868563-9 1 0 0 0
Sansterre A87A943-C 12C 1x20, 1x1C 120 2
Amondiage A5629A9-C 12K 1x10, 5x1C 120 2
St.Denis D735764-7 20 2 1 0</pre>

[/quote]This could make for quite an interesting afternoon's wargaming - add some Admirals to the mix and off you go.
Squadron capabilities could be determined either by using equivalent TL squadrons from FFW, or designing the ships with High Guard and then converting them across to FFW factors.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by The Oz:
If we use FFW as the basis to determine the ground and space forces available to the worlds of the Island Subsectors, we get:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">World UPP Def. Bns. Mobile Bns SDBs Squadrons
Zuflucht C445720-8 20 2 1 0
Esperanza A674ABC-B 12K 1x10, 5x1C 12C 3
St. Hilaire B579763-A 15 1 1 0
Gloire C764567-9 1 0 0 0
Serendip Belt A000959-C 12C 1x20, 1x1C 120 2
New Colchis A8959AA-C 12C 1x20, 1x1C 120 2
Herzenlust E995765-6 30 3 0 0
Topas D120899-5 3C 1x10, 1x20 0 0
Joyeuse A7899B9-C 12K 1x10, 5x1C 120 2

Quichotte E576667-6 3 0 0 0
Neubayern A7889C9-C 12K 1x10, 5x1C 120 2
New Home A565857-D 1K 1C 15 1
Colchis B676898-9 150 1x5, 1x10 10 1
Acadie C868563-9 1 0 0 0
Sansterre A87A943-C 12C 1x20, 1x1C 120 2
Amondiage A5629A9-C 12K 1x10, 5x1C 120 2
St.Denis D735764-7 20 2 1 0</pre>

[/quote]This could make for quite an interesting afternoon's wargaming - add some Admirals to the mix and off you go.
Squadron capabilities could be determined either by using equivalent TL squadrons from FFW, or designing the ships with High Guard and then converting them across to FFW factors.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
This could make for quite an interesting afternoon's wargaming - add some Admirals to the mix and off you go.
Squadron capabilities could be determined either by using equivalent TL squadrons from FFW, or designing the ships with High Guard and then converting them across to FFW factors.

I was rather thinking of using either my WAS/VITP-derived system or your abstract Imperium-style system to create the individual capital ships and then going from that starting point.

Basically, each squadron of capital ships would be converted to 8 individual ships, some of which would be assault ships to carry all those mobile battalions.

All we'd need is some way to account for the SDBs in those combat systems and we'd be set. Plus the admirals, of course.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
This could make for quite an interesting afternoon's wargaming - add some Admirals to the mix and off you go.
Squadron capabilities could be determined either by using equivalent TL squadrons from FFW, or designing the ships with High Guard and then converting them across to FFW factors.

I was rather thinking of using either my WAS/VITP-derived system or your abstract Imperium-style system to create the individual capital ships and then going from that starting point.

Basically, each squadron of capital ships would be converted to 8 individual ships, some of which would be assault ships to carry all those mobile battalions.

All we'd need is some way to account for the SDBs in those combat systems and we'd be set. Plus the admirals, of course.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by The Oz:
Done this way, Esperanza doesn't look quite so much like the 800-kiloton gorilla.

Oz,

Esperanza is a paper tiger in TCS too.

At TL11, it can't bridge the gaps between it and any other power in a single jump. It can't even reach one of it's supposed colonies in a single jump. Esperanza usually sits down in a fortress and waits for the winner's armadas to arrvie - with the entire industry of the other 7 powers behind it. Occasionally, she'll build enough tankers to reach Serendip or New Colchis via Orphee. TL 11 means that Esperanza doesn't have nuclear dampers either...

The interesting world is Colchis...

Colchis is a very interesting world. One of it's historical colonies is a major power, yet Colchis is not. One of the meta-pplot elements in MTU's Islands Campaign was the wooing of Colchis with the promsie of technical uplift by several interested parties.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by The Oz:
Done this way, Esperanza doesn't look quite so much like the 800-kiloton gorilla.

Oz,

Esperanza is a paper tiger in TCS too.

At TL11, it can't bridge the gaps between it and any other power in a single jump. It can't even reach one of it's supposed colonies in a single jump. Esperanza usually sits down in a fortress and waits for the winner's armadas to arrvie - with the entire industry of the other 7 powers behind it. Occasionally, she'll build enough tankers to reach Serendip or New Colchis via Orphee. TL 11 means that Esperanza doesn't have nuclear dampers either...

The interesting world is Colchis...

Colchis is a very interesting world. One of it's historical colonies is a major power, yet Colchis is not. One of the meta-pplot elements in MTU's Islands Campaign was the wooing of Colchis with the promsie of technical uplift by several interested parties.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Oz,

Esperanza is a paper tiger in TCS too.

At TL11, it can't bridge the gaps between it and any other power in a single jump. It can't even reach one of it's supposed colonies in a single jump. Esperanza usually sits down in a fortress and waits for the winner's armadas to arrvie - with the entire industry of the other 7 powers behind it. Occasionally, she'll build enough tankers to reach Serendip or New Colchis via Orphee. TL 11 means that Esperanza doesn't have nuclear dampers either...

Have fun,
Bill

The times I've seen Esperanza played the owner always built a horde of J-2 missile boats and just enough tankers to get them past the J-3/4 void to attack. With refueling stations placed in hexes 0305 and 0307 Serendip Belt (via Gloire) and New Colchis (directly) are in attack range.

Heck, if I were refereeing a TCS game I'd let Esperanza built secret deep-space refueling stations as part of their pre-war build. Of course, the other sides could always find the location of those places somehow and come a-visitin'.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Oz,

Esperanza is a paper tiger in TCS too.

At TL11, it can't bridge the gaps between it and any other power in a single jump. It can't even reach one of it's supposed colonies in a single jump. Esperanza usually sits down in a fortress and waits for the winner's armadas to arrvie - with the entire industry of the other 7 powers behind it. Occasionally, she'll build enough tankers to reach Serendip or New Colchis via Orphee. TL 11 means that Esperanza doesn't have nuclear dampers either...

Have fun,
Bill

The times I've seen Esperanza played the owner always built a horde of J-2 missile boats and just enough tankers to get them past the J-3/4 void to attack. With refueling stations placed in hexes 0305 and 0307 Serendip Belt (via Gloire) and New Colchis (directly) are in attack range.

Heck, if I were refereeing a TCS game I'd let Esperanza built secret deep-space refueling stations as part of their pre-war build. Of course, the other sides could always find the location of those places somehow and come a-visitin'.

 

[The Oz]

Thrash:

Yes, TCS does pre-date the introduction of the population modifier, and if I were going to run a TCS campaign I might well use population modifier as a balancing factor.

As I read that original writeup, the description of those four worlds (Esperanza, New Colchis, Joyeuse, and Serendip Belt) applies only to those four worlds (it's in the writeup for the New Islands subsector) and does not necessarily give us any ideas on pop modifiers for the Old Islands subsector. I don't see anything in the original writeup that gives any hints for relative populations in the Old Islands (except that New Home is pop-8 while the others are pop-9, of course).

 

[The Oz]

Thrash:

Yes, TCS does pre-date the introduction of the population modifier, and if I were going to run a TCS campaign I might well use population modifier as a balancing factor.

As I read that original writeup, the description of those four worlds (Esperanza, New Colchis, Joyeuse, and Serendip Belt) applies only to those four worlds (it's in the writeup for the New Islands subsector) and does not necessarily give us any ideas on pop modifiers for the Old Islands subsector. I don't see anything in the original writeup that gives any hints for relative populations in the Old Islands (except that New Home is pop-8 while the others are pop-9, of course).

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by thrash:

Also for what it's worth, I attempted to associate numbers and tonnages with the forces from FFW and I:E you mentioned above in this thread: Military Forces and Spending. In particular, SDBs appear to function as if they are 400-10,000 dtons each, with the median around 2,000 dtons.

Yes, I got similar numbers when I attempted to analyze the size of the "typical" SDB: certainly the 400-dton SDB from Supp. 7 is not what FFW or I:E considers to be a SDB. Unless you're talking about a "small-ship" TU.

Finally, note that the relationship between naval squadrons and population is not linear. Increasing the population modifier should probably push the tonnages and capabilities of these squadrons towards the top end of their ranges, rather than increase the number of squadrons directly. Otherwise, a world with a population of 3 billion would have six squadrons, while one with a population of 10 billion would still have only three.

This is a good idea if you wanted to take population modifiers into account.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by thrash:

Also for what it's worth, I attempted to associate numbers and tonnages with the forces from FFW and I:E you mentioned above in this thread: Military Forces and Spending. In particular, SDBs appear to function as if they are 400-10,000 dtons each, with the median around 2,000 dtons.

Yes, I got similar numbers when I attempted to analyze the size of the "typical" SDB: certainly the 400-dton SDB from Supp. 7 is not what FFW or I:E considers to be a SDB. Unless you're talking about a "small-ship" TU.

Finally, note that the relationship between naval squadrons and population is not linear. Increasing the population modifier should probably push the tonnages and capabilities of these squadrons towards the top end of their ranges, rather than increase the number of squadrons directly. Otherwise, a world with a population of 3 billion would have six squadrons, while one with a population of 10 billion would still have only three.

This is a good idea if you wanted to take population modifiers into account.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by The Oz:
The times I've seen Esperanza played the owner always built a horde of J-2 missile boats and just enough tankers to get them past the J-3/4 void to attack.

Oz,

Esperanza is handicapped in other ways too. Ways my earlier groups overlooked because we overlooked single sentences in the rules.

GDW was first, last, and always a wargame publisher. RPGs were simply part of the prodcut line, a major part to be sure. In a wargame, play balance is the ideal.

Believe me, Esperanza is definitely play balanced!

Aside from the 3 to 4 parsec gap it needs to cross with jump2 ships, the budget process, initial build and maintenance requirements, and refit restrictions hobble Esperanza sufficiently to keep it from becoming the 363.6 kg gorilla of the Cluster. Mull over the following:

- TCS does not use population modifiers, so throw out those tens of billions on Esperanza. That cuts her budget much more relative to the othere powers.

- 20% of your initial fleet must be built at one TL lower than your current one. That means jump1 drives for Esperanza and weaker computers.

- Paying for TL refits doesn't help either. You can't increase power plant, M-drive, J-drive, or spinal mount tonnage as part of a refit. (This was the bit we overlooked early on) So, you won't be paying extra to drop jump2 drives in that 20% of your fleet built at TL10.

- This one is tricky. You build initially with 10 times your annual peacetime budget and must pay a yearly maintenance fee of 1/10th a ship's cost. See the trick? If you build ships with every credit of your initial budget, your entire first year budget goes to maintenance! No credits are left for the repairs you'll need over the next 52 weeks. (Remember, you first annual budget is the peacetime one, you don't get war budget money until Year 2!)

- Esperanza's war 'bonus'; the tax increase between peace and war, is relatively far smaller than her two closest opponents. IIRC, Espranza gets a 9% boost while Serendip enjoys something over 40% and New Colchis gets something around 25%.

- Seeing as Esperanza will be fighting its higher tech opponents via attritive warfare; i.e. swamp 'em with expendable missile boats, she'll be facing much higher repair costs and new construction costs. The people playering Esperanza in my games found it was good practice to set aside money equal to roughly 1/4 of their annual budget for repairs. In the first war year, that money must come from your initial build budget remember.

- Building any sizeable warship in TCS takes time. A ship of 1000dTons takes over two years (120 weeks IIRC), although you can speed that by paying more or using more space in your yards. Because Esperanza will be faced with more repairs than her opponents; attritive warfare don't forget, she'll have proportionally less money and space for new construction.

So, a fifth of Esperanza's fleet is two tech levels behind her opponents, she cannot upgrade those vessels in any meaningful way, any offensive she undertakes will be attritive causing larger repair bills than her opponents, and she'll have devote a sizeable portion her budget to the construction of noncombatants (tankers etc.) just to get at her opponents.

Play balance, gotta love it!


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by The Oz:
The times I've seen Esperanza played the owner always built a horde of J-2 missile boats and just enough tankers to get them past the J-3/4 void to attack.

Oz,

Esperanza is handicapped in other ways too. Ways my earlier groups overlooked because we overlooked single sentences in the rules.

GDW was first, last, and always a wargame publisher. RPGs were simply part of the prodcut line, a major part to be sure. In a wargame, play balance is the ideal.

Believe me, Esperanza is definitely play balanced!

Aside from the 3 to 4 parsec gap it needs to cross with jump2 ships, the budget process, initial build and maintenance requirements, and refit restrictions hobble Esperanza sufficiently to keep it from becoming the 363.6 kg gorilla of the Cluster. Mull over the following:

- TCS does not use population modifiers, so throw out those tens of billions on Esperanza. That cuts her budget much more relative to the othere powers.

- 20% of your initial fleet must be built at one TL lower than your current one. That means jump1 drives for Esperanza and weaker computers.

- Paying for TL refits doesn't help either. You can't increase power plant, M-drive, J-drive, or spinal mount tonnage as part of a refit. (This was the bit we overlooked early on) So, you won't be paying extra to drop jump2 drives in that 20% of your fleet built at TL10.

- This one is tricky. You build initially with 10 times your annual peacetime budget and must pay a yearly maintenance fee of 1/10th a ship's cost. See the trick? If you build ships with every credit of your initial budget, your entire first year budget goes to maintenance! No credits are left for the repairs you'll need over the next 52 weeks. (Remember, you first annual budget is the peacetime one, you don't get war budget money until Year 2!)

- Esperanza's war 'bonus'; the tax increase between peace and war, is relatively far smaller than her two closest opponents. IIRC, Espranza gets a 9% boost while Serendip enjoys something over 40% and New Colchis gets something around 25%.

- Seeing as Esperanza will be fighting its higher tech opponents via attritive warfare; i.e. swamp 'em with expendable missile boats, she'll be facing much higher repair costs and new construction costs. The people playering Esperanza in my games found it was good practice to set aside money equal to roughly 1/4 of their annual budget for repairs. In the first war year, that money must come from your initial build budget remember.

- Building any sizeable warship in TCS takes time. A ship of 1000dTons takes over two years (120 weeks IIRC), although you can speed that by paying more or using more space in your yards. Because Esperanza will be faced with more repairs than her opponents; attritive warfare don't forget, she'll have proportionally less money and space for new construction.

So, a fifth of Esperanza's fleet is two tech levels behind her opponents, she cannot upgrade those vessels in any meaningful way, any offensive she undertakes will be attritive causing larger repair bills than her opponents, and she'll have devote a sizeable portion her budget to the construction of noncombatants (tankers etc.) just to get at her opponents.

Play balance, gotta love it!


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:

- TCS does not use population modifiers, so throw out those tens of billions on Esperanza. That cuts her budget much more relative to the othere powers.

With pop multipliers, Es has approximately 60% of the population of the islands cluster, and is 30x stronger than Nc, 6x stronger than Sb.
Without pop multipliers, Es has approximately 62% of the population of the islands cluster, and is 10x stronger than Nc, 10x stronger than Sb.
In terms of relative strength, pop multipliers don't really change anything about Es.

- 20% of your initial fleet must be built at one TL lower than your current one. That means jump1 drives for Esperanza and weaker computers.

Or perhaps it means you build SDBs and/or fighters with that cash, since you need a system defense fleet anyway. This makes the TL refit problem mostly irrelevant, since all you need to upgrade is the computer.

- This one is tricky. You build initially with 10 times your annual peacetime budget and must pay a yearly maintenance fee of 1/10th a ship's cost. See the trick? If you build ships with every credit of your initial budget, your entire first year budget goes to maintenance! No credits are left for the repairs you'll need over the next 52 weeks.

This affects everyone, not just Es. Once some ships get blown up, you free up some budget.

- Seeing as Esperanza will be fighting its higher tech opponents via attritive warfare; i.e. swamp 'em with expendable missile boats, she'll be facing much higher repair costs and new construction costs.

It will? Why would you rely on attrition when you can go for a crushing victory?

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:

- TCS does not use population modifiers, so throw out those tens of billions on Esperanza. That cuts her budget much more relative to the othere powers.

With pop multipliers, Es has approximately 60% of the population of the islands cluster, and is 30x stronger than Nc, 6x stronger than Sb.
Without pop multipliers, Es has approximately 62% of the population of the islands cluster, and is 10x stronger than Nc, 10x stronger than Sb.
In terms of relative strength, pop multipliers don't really change anything about Es.

- 20% of your initial fleet must be built at one TL lower than your current one. That means jump1 drives for Esperanza and weaker computers.

Or perhaps it means you build SDBs and/or fighters with that cash, since you need a system defense fleet anyway. This makes the TL refit problem mostly irrelevant, since all you need to upgrade is the computer.

- This one is tricky. You build initially with 10 times your annual peacetime budget and must pay a yearly maintenance fee of 1/10th a ship's cost. See the trick? If you build ships with every credit of your initial budget, your entire first year budget goes to maintenance! No credits are left for the repairs you'll need over the next 52 weeks.

This affects everyone, not just Es. Once some ships get blown up, you free up some budget.

- Seeing as Esperanza will be fighting its higher tech opponents via attritive warfare; i.e. swamp 'em with expendable missile boats, she'll be facing much higher repair costs and new construction costs.

It will? Why would you rely on attrition when you can go for a crushing victory?

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Anthony:
It will? Why would you rely on attrition when you can go for a crushing victory?

Anthony,

A serious question here and not an insult, have you ever played a TCS campaign?

The only way Esperanza can win battles against her higher-TL opponents is to smother them under a wave of missile boats. That means there will be a lot of casulties on both sides.

Every battle Esperanza wins will be through attrition. She wins when her opponent runs out of ships. Geting to that point means that Esperanza is going to go through quite a few ships herself. Her repair/new construction costs are much higher. She needs to repair/rebuild her rider squadrons and missile boat flotillas after every major battle.

Sure, she can come down like an avalanche... once. She will take out Serendip or New Colchis, but the effort will all but wreck her - especially if either power builds a fleet orientated(1) towards stopping her. She'll occupy the battlefield after mutual exhaustion, easy meat for whichever power decides to counterpunch.

Like Britain or Russia in Diplomacy, we found Esperanza one of the harder powers to play successfully despite the seeming benefits of her position.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - Serendip or New Cholchis can build an 'Esperanza-proof' fleet, usually insanely armored planetiods with lots of laser batteries. The trouble is, while those ships do well against the Espies' infinite missile boats, they fair very poorly against other fleet styles. This brings us right back to the 'rock-paper-scissor' idea I posted before. You can build a certain type of fleet that will always beat a certain other type of fleet, but it will be beaten hollow by a third type in turn. Extreme fleet designs don't work among 8 opponents, you have to find a balance.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Anthony:
It will? Why would you rely on attrition when you can go for a crushing victory?

Anthony,

A serious question here and not an insult, have you ever played a TCS campaign?

The only way Esperanza can win battles against her higher-TL opponents is to smother them under a wave of missile boats. That means there will be a lot of casulties on both sides.

Every battle Esperanza wins will be through attrition. She wins when her opponent runs out of ships. Geting to that point means that Esperanza is going to go through quite a few ships herself. Her repair/new construction costs are much higher. She needs to repair/rebuild her rider squadrons and missile boat flotillas after every major battle.

Sure, she can come down like an avalanche... once. She will take out Serendip or New Colchis, but the effort will all but wreck her - especially if either power builds a fleet orientated(1) towards stopping her. She'll occupy the battlefield after mutual exhaustion, easy meat for whichever power decides to counterpunch.

Like Britain or Russia in Diplomacy, we found Esperanza one of the harder powers to play successfully despite the seeming benefits of her position.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - Serendip or New Cholchis can build an 'Esperanza-proof' fleet, usually insanely armored planetiods with lots of laser batteries. The trouble is, while those ships do well against the Espies' infinite missile boats, they fair very poorly against other fleet styles. This brings us right back to the 'rock-paper-scissor' idea I posted before. You can build a certain type of fleet that will always beat a certain other type of fleet, but it will be beaten hollow by a third type in turn. Extreme fleet designs don't work among 8 opponents, you have to find a balance.