Twilight 2000 D20 (T20?)
- Thread starter tcabril
- Start date
Greetings and salutations,
Maybe it can use something in the vain of creating characters in 2320AD or the rules for creating characters in T20. If the Afvancecd and Prestige classes from D20 are used, then they will need to be tweaked a little for T:2000.
The other thing that will need to go is the Purchase DC. That is one of my pet peeves about D20. You want to freak a Ref out, ask what the Purchase DC is for a package of Vienna Fingers (or one of your favorite snacks) and insist on knowing what the Purchase DC is.
What will really draw me to T:2000 is the realism of combat. I had ran a fed groups that involved members of our Armed Forces or those that had served in the military and they agreed that the game had a system that conveyed the realism of combat.
Now I'm in the mood to run or play Twilight: 2000 v2.0 or 2300AD (American Marine campaign).
Maybe it can use something in the vain of creating characters in 2320AD or the rules for creating characters in T20. If the Afvancecd and Prestige classes from D20 are used, then they will need to be tweaked a little for T:2000.
The other thing that will need to go is the Purchase DC. That is one of my pet peeves about D20. You want to freak a Ref out, ask what the Purchase DC is for a package of Vienna Fingers (or one of your favorite snacks) and insist on knowing what the Purchase DC is.
What will really draw me to T:2000 is the realism of combat. I had ran a fed groups that involved members of our Armed Forces or those that had served in the military and they agreed that the game had a system that conveyed the realism of combat.
Now I'm in the mood to run or play Twilight: 2000 v2.0 or 2300AD (American Marine campaign).
imported_Sgt_Biggles
SOC-7
Perhaps I can shed some light on this subject. The Twilight 2000 rewrite is a D20 upgrade. The core rules are those from the Traveller T20 system.
Character creation will be somewhat loose. There are the four base classes for the military: Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines. In addition there is three core classes for civilians: Professional, Craftsman and EMS. Each military core class will have subheadings representing military career specialties. The player will be able to select feats and skills based on service branch and then again based on specialty. The civilian classes do not have specialties built in, allowing the player to generate anything from a garbage collector to a brain surgeon. Once the class and specialty is decided the character goes through up to 4 “Term of Service” A term can be working, going to school or even prison. During each term the character earns XP based on assignment, promotions and awards. At the end of the term a check is made to see if the character has gone to War, or the player can voluntarily opt to go to war. After four terms the character automatically goes to war. There are no “Mustering Out” benefits as such, instead a character can generate extra gear, attribute bumps or skills. At the end of each term the XP is totaled and the character levels up. Prestige classes can be gained at relatively low levels and bring in the Special Forces training. (Or advanced specialties for civilians). Then the character is ready to start the game. The classes are nationality neutral. A characters country of origin is expressed more in terms of equipment then skills. The system allows a player to create a character which is tailored to their concept yet limits the power gamer.
As to the Purchase DC; Two systems are offered. One is simply a Trade Point. I found through playing T2K the most common form of trade is bargaining. So based on perceived need each piece of gear is assigned a point value. Its pretty straight forward, however, a good referee balances out the trade deals anyway. The second is based on money. This is more complicated since monetary systems have broken down and very few areas have an economy going again. T2K Ver 1, used a DC based on availability, the same is true of the re-write. No surprises here.
Should you ask your referee the DC for Vienna Fingers you would first have to find them. (Gather Information DC: 30 and several days, depending on where you are) Once found it becomes a matter of need vs want. The seller turns out to be an old survivalist and the Vienna Fingers a part of his food storage. He might be willing to part with them. He is short of ammo for his PZF 44, 67mm, Rocket launcher. He will trade the can of Vienna Fingers for 6 rockets. Of course a smooth talking trader might talk him down a rocket or two…Now, where to find the rockets?
Hope this is helpful.
As a side note. The T20 version of T2K does not have a projected release at this time, but it is in development.
Character creation will be somewhat loose. There are the four base classes for the military: Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines. In addition there is three core classes for civilians: Professional, Craftsman and EMS. Each military core class will have subheadings representing military career specialties. The player will be able to select feats and skills based on service branch and then again based on specialty. The civilian classes do not have specialties built in, allowing the player to generate anything from a garbage collector to a brain surgeon. Once the class and specialty is decided the character goes through up to 4 “Term of Service” A term can be working, going to school or even prison. During each term the character earns XP based on assignment, promotions and awards. At the end of the term a check is made to see if the character has gone to War, or the player can voluntarily opt to go to war. After four terms the character automatically goes to war. There are no “Mustering Out” benefits as such, instead a character can generate extra gear, attribute bumps or skills. At the end of each term the XP is totaled and the character levels up. Prestige classes can be gained at relatively low levels and bring in the Special Forces training. (Or advanced specialties for civilians). Then the character is ready to start the game. The classes are nationality neutral. A characters country of origin is expressed more in terms of equipment then skills. The system allows a player to create a character which is tailored to their concept yet limits the power gamer.
As to the Purchase DC; Two systems are offered. One is simply a Trade Point. I found through playing T2K the most common form of trade is bargaining. So based on perceived need each piece of gear is assigned a point value. Its pretty straight forward, however, a good referee balances out the trade deals anyway. The second is based on money. This is more complicated since monetary systems have broken down and very few areas have an economy going again. T2K Ver 1, used a DC based on availability, the same is true of the re-write. No surprises here.
Should you ask your referee the DC for Vienna Fingers you would first have to find them. (Gather Information DC: 30 and several days, depending on where you are) Once found it becomes a matter of need vs want. The seller turns out to be an old survivalist and the Vienna Fingers a part of his food storage. He might be willing to part with them. He is short of ammo for his PZF 44, 67mm, Rocket launcher. He will trade the can of Vienna Fingers for 6 rockets. Of course a smooth talking trader might talk him down a rocket or two…Now, where to find the rockets?
Hope this is helpful.
As a side note. The T20 version of T2K does not have a projected release at this time, but it is in development.
imported_Sgt_Biggles
SOC-7
Combat is done according to the T20 rule set.
The burst and automatic fire rules are good. Hand to hand combat/melee combat is rather weak in T20. However, Close Quarters Combat is being addressed. There will be enough depth for a martial artist style fighter to have several options, yet not so complicated as to drag the combat down. Vehicle combat is streamlined from T20 where starships were the main focus. If you are familiar with T20 you have the general idea.
Weapons have the added attribute of penetration. It’s just not possible to shoot a .22 through the armor of a tank. Even a critical/lucky shot isn't going to damage the thing. By the same token combat armor, even at level III has enough openings and weak points to allow death by a rifle shot. A 120mm HE round fired from an M1A2, well, its just ugly is all.
Individual hit locations are gone as is typical in D20. Added are expanded rules for called shots. A sniper can take the head off a target at 500 meters without much problem. For the less violent you can target weapons and held items, even put a round through a canteen as the target is getting ready to take a drink. It is possible to kill someone with a single pistol shot now.
Combat is extremely lethal. Whenever a character takes a hit there is the loss of stamina, but also a loss of lifeblood. Armor can protect against lifeblood damage. By far the most important aspect of combat is cover. Unlike the original T2K a character can no longer charge the machinegun nest and hope to get more than a few steps without being gunned down. Cover, concealment and spotting have been expanded and represent the core factor in surviving a firefight. Having been in combat my own self, getting to cover is paramount to survival. Better yet, seeing the enemy before he sees you is even better.
A general over view. Hope that helps. I like the T20 combat rules. The effort required to create a character and the ease of which they can be killed, add a strong element of realism not found in other gaming systems. After a single combat even the most unskilled novice player will have learned a little something about tactics and survival.
Of course you cant make everyone happy. The power gamers will be dissappointed I'm afraid. Since I advocate RPG Realms and T20, I cant tell a power gamer to give Spycraft or D20 Modern a go.
Hope this helps.
The burst and automatic fire rules are good. Hand to hand combat/melee combat is rather weak in T20. However, Close Quarters Combat is being addressed. There will be enough depth for a martial artist style fighter to have several options, yet not so complicated as to drag the combat down. Vehicle combat is streamlined from T20 where starships were the main focus. If you are familiar with T20 you have the general idea.
Weapons have the added attribute of penetration. It’s just not possible to shoot a .22 through the armor of a tank. Even a critical/lucky shot isn't going to damage the thing. By the same token combat armor, even at level III has enough openings and weak points to allow death by a rifle shot. A 120mm HE round fired from an M1A2, well, its just ugly is all.
Individual hit locations are gone as is typical in D20. Added are expanded rules for called shots. A sniper can take the head off a target at 500 meters without much problem. For the less violent you can target weapons and held items, even put a round through a canteen as the target is getting ready to take a drink. It is possible to kill someone with a single pistol shot now.
Combat is extremely lethal. Whenever a character takes a hit there is the loss of stamina, but also a loss of lifeblood. Armor can protect against lifeblood damage. By far the most important aspect of combat is cover. Unlike the original T2K a character can no longer charge the machinegun nest and hope to get more than a few steps without being gunned down. Cover, concealment and spotting have been expanded and represent the core factor in surviving a firefight. Having been in combat my own self, getting to cover is paramount to survival. Better yet, seeing the enemy before he sees you is even better.
A general over view. Hope that helps. I like the T20 combat rules. The effort required to create a character and the ease of which they can be killed, add a strong element of realism not found in other gaming systems. After a single combat even the most unskilled novice player will have learned a little something about tactics and survival.
Of course you cant make everyone happy. The power gamers will be dissappointed I'm afraid. Since I advocate RPG Realms and T20, I cant tell a power gamer to give Spycraft or D20 Modern a go.
Hope this helps.
Greetings and salutations,
Will there be rules or something for Carry Capacity as there was in Twilight:2000? I have had players try to do fancy maneuvers and such until I made them strap on my backpack. On any given day, it weighs 20-40 lbs.
Go ahead, show me how your character is going to do a long jump over the hole in the road with that much weight on your back and a weapon in your hands.
Damn fool also forgot he was carying a half empty canteen and a key ring full of keys. The ememy fire team sent to cover that approach lit him up and the players never argued with me about fancy maneuvers with that much weight again.
It is good to be the Referee!
Will there be rules or something for Carry Capacity as there was in Twilight:2000? I have had players try to do fancy maneuvers and such until I made them strap on my backpack. On any given day, it weighs 20-40 lbs.
Go ahead, show me how your character is going to do a long jump over the hole in the road with that much weight on your back and a weapon in your hands.
Damn fool also forgot he was carying a half empty canteen and a key ring full of keys. The ememy fire team sent to cover that approach lit him up and the players never argued with me about fancy maneuvers with that much weight again.
It is good to be the Referee!
imported_Sgt_Biggles
SOC-7
HA!! We did that as well. Especially with young players. I like the one where the player jumps out of an APC with a full + pack on, runs across a field and dives through a window. In all fairness, one of the members of the spec ops team I was on could do some amazing things with a full load.
But put a 50 pound pack on + a helmet and vest and a broom handle (not going to give a kid a gun sorry) and have him jump out of the passenger side of a pickup, climb over a fence and run through the back door in 6 seconds is simply fun.
Yes, the rewrite covers encumbrance in two ways. First is by weight. A character with a 16 Str can carry a rather heavy load even when packing a light load. The second is based on the size of the items carried. Just an example: Clyde has a STR of 16. In addition to basic gear (LBE, armor, rucksack, etc.) he is carrying a shotgun, an M-60 MG, an M4, 6 grenades and two fishing poles. He ends up right at the border of a light load and a medium one. Clyde decides to sneak up on some unidentified folks he runs across in the forest. While weight isn’t an issue, the assorted weapons and fishing poles are going to hang up on most every branch he passes. You see the problem.
The rules governing encumbrance are mostly common sense, but added for those who have lived their life playing video games and watching action movies.
But put a 50 pound pack on + a helmet and vest and a broom handle (not going to give a kid a gun sorry) and have him jump out of the passenger side of a pickup, climb over a fence and run through the back door in 6 seconds is simply fun.
Yes, the rewrite covers encumbrance in two ways. First is by weight. A character with a 16 Str can carry a rather heavy load even when packing a light load. The second is based on the size of the items carried. Just an example: Clyde has a STR of 16. In addition to basic gear (LBE, armor, rucksack, etc.) he is carrying a shotgun, an M-60 MG, an M4, 6 grenades and two fishing poles. He ends up right at the border of a light load and a medium one. Clyde decides to sneak up on some unidentified folks he runs across in the forest. While weight isn’t an issue, the assorted weapons and fishing poles are going to hang up on most every branch he passes. You see the problem.
The rules governing encumbrance are mostly common sense, but added for those who have lived their life playing video games and watching action movies.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Just an outsider's (never found anyone to play the game so never got it) observation here on the encumbrance issue. It's good to find some who have an idea what it's about. Seems every game I play in the player's are allowed to get away with anything while when I referee and try to get them to tally their total carried gear all I get is grief. It's all "Well I've always carried my whole kit before with no problems" and such. Or they'll keep pulling fresh gear-of-the-moment just when needed out of a bottomless pack with a quick "I always have a few of those, I just don't list them because they weigh nothing and cost nothing" story.
Anyway rant off, on to a small gripe with most encumbrance systems and the way I'd like it done in many games.
Too often it seems the encumbrance system is based soley on a character strength stat and the item weight/volume. While this is probably for ease of play it seems nearly suspension of belief snapping for me. First in such systems using a pack or frame is a penalty since the item adds to the encumbrance total. My experience is a well loaded pack or frame can allow greater loads and freedom of movement, not less. Certainly there are limits but in general if I carry X load in a well organized pack with a good frame it's a lot easier than trying to carry the same X load as a loose lot cradled in my arms.
I think the way to handle it might be an encumbrance limit however you want to figure it and then item encumbrance and a location modifier for where/how it's carried. Full encumbrance for in hand (and a limit there of two full hands). Naturally in hand is ready for use. Then maybe 2/3 encumbrance for slung items (including the sling when slung, with the same limit as hands of two full slings). Slung items can be readied in one action. And finally maybe 1/3 encumbrance for packed items (including the pack when worn, with the limit based on the type of pack purchased). Packed items would require at least two actions to ready, one to drop the pack and another to dig it out. Add actions to dig deeper.
Anyway that's roughly the way I've wanted to do or find it done for a lot of years. Who knows maybe some game I've never played has actually already done it that way or similar.
Anyway rant off, on to a small gripe with most encumbrance systems and the way I'd like it done in many games.
Too often it seems the encumbrance system is based soley on a character strength stat and the item weight/volume. While this is probably for ease of play it seems nearly suspension of belief snapping for me. First in such systems using a pack or frame is a penalty since the item adds to the encumbrance total. My experience is a well loaded pack or frame can allow greater loads and freedom of movement, not less. Certainly there are limits but in general if I carry X load in a well organized pack with a good frame it's a lot easier than trying to carry the same X load as a loose lot cradled in my arms.
I think the way to handle it might be an encumbrance limit however you want to figure it and then item encumbrance and a location modifier for where/how it's carried. Full encumbrance for in hand (and a limit there of two full hands). Naturally in hand is ready for use. Then maybe 2/3 encumbrance for slung items (including the sling when slung, with the same limit as hands of two full slings). Slung items can be readied in one action. And finally maybe 1/3 encumbrance for packed items (including the pack when worn, with the limit based on the type of pack purchased). Packed items would require at least two actions to ready, one to drop the pack and another to dig it out. Add actions to dig deeper.
Anyway that's roughly the way I've wanted to do or find it done for a lot of years. Who knows maybe some game I've never played has actually already done it that way or similar.
Greetings and salutations,
I was never allowed to join the military, but I made a lot of friends with people in the military. Some of whom I have run through Twilight:2000 and 2300AD. We would always laugh (and laugh hard) when a AD&D (of which I also play/played) would join T:2000. They would say their character could do all these amazing things with all this weight on.
"Oh really. Here, put this on."
SGT. Biggles
far-trader
By the way, is there going to be a playtest for the game?
I was never allowed to join the military, but I made a lot of friends with people in the military. Some of whom I have run through Twilight:2000 and 2300AD. We would always laugh (and laugh hard) when a AD&D (of which I also play/played) would join T:2000. They would say their character could do all these amazing things with all this weight on.
"Oh really. Here, put this on."
SGT. Biggles
Personally, I think anyone who plays an RPG that has firearms should spend a day on a firing range. A friend and I used to go practice shooting and he rented a .44 Magnum Revolver. Thing was loud and after I fired one shot from it, I put it down and walked away. It was strangely exciting and unnerving. The guys at the range still laugh about that, but they give me much respect with the Colt 9mm Carbine in my hand. Better yet, a mock Basic Training (Gym Class with attitude) or go play painball. With the gear on. "Yeah, where's your fancy moves now?"
far-trader
I established early in my games that if it is not your list of what you have and what you are carryiing, you don't have it. Come to think about it, it was the AD&Der that argued with me the most about it. He quit when he had to roll up his seventh character for the game.
By the way, is there going to be a playtest for the game?
That's not the meaning of the term 'heroic' that I meant. The classes in d20 Modern are not 'realistic', for want of a better word. They are not considered 'ordinary people' in much the same way as standard character classes in D&D are considered to be 'special'. D&D has a number of NPC classes that are used to represent ordinary people.
I'm not interested in an argument about soldiers not being ordinary people etc, this is a system issue not a political one.
Anyway, it's a moot point, as the T20 system handles these issues in a more realistic and balanced way.
I'm not interested in an argument about soldiers not being ordinary people etc, this is a system issue not a political one.
Anyway, it's a moot point, as the T20 system handles these issues in a more realistic and balanced way.
There are differing levels of realism. For instance T20 has an ability score called Social Class. How relevant is this ability in a Twilight 2000 campaign? Does social sophistication really count for much when you are trying to survive the collapse of civilization?
One way you might make D20 Modern more realistic would be to drop the defense bonus that comes with increasing level. A person who advanced to 10th level is then simply very lucky that a bullet has so far managed not to hit him. Another way to make a character more survivable is to surround him with "red shirts". (As in the "red shirts" on classic star trek episodes, whenever there was a need in an episode for somebody to die, a "red shirt" always accompanied the main characters on a landing party and if someone gets killed, it was a "red shirt" security officer. To adapt this principle to D20 Twilight 2000, you simple have a number of henchmen accompany the PC equal to the defense bonus the D20 Modern game says he would ordinarily get. The PC doesn't get a defense bonus per se, but whenever an opponent rolls a d20 modified and the result is greater than the characters defense but less than it would have been if level based defense bonuses were used, the "Red Shirt" NPC henchman takes the hit rather than the PC. The PC then suffers a casuality among his party of henchmen rather than being killed himself, this perhaps indicates that he should seek cover of exercise greater caution before he runs out of henchmen.
One way you might make D20 Modern more realistic would be to drop the defense bonus that comes with increasing level. A person who advanced to 10th level is then simply very lucky that a bullet has so far managed not to hit him. Another way to make a character more survivable is to surround him with "red shirts". (As in the "red shirts" on classic star trek episodes, whenever there was a need in an episode for somebody to die, a "red shirt" always accompanied the main characters on a landing party and if someone gets killed, it was a "red shirt" security officer. To adapt this principle to D20 Twilight 2000, you simple have a number of henchmen accompany the PC equal to the defense bonus the D20 Modern game says he would ordinarily get. The PC doesn't get a defense bonus per se, but whenever an opponent rolls a d20 modified and the result is greater than the characters defense but less than it would have been if level based defense bonuses were used, the "Red Shirt" NPC henchman takes the hit rather than the PC. The PC then suffers a casuality among his party of henchmen rather than being killed himself, this perhaps indicates that he should seek cover of exercise greater caution before he runs out of henchmen.
Or the GM could simply intervene and not allow things to get as unbalanced as folks say the D20 system is by doing what a GM is supposed to. These problems about 'super' characters are nothing new and were around in the older versions of AD&D, for example, long before the D20 system arrived. A good GM should be able to mitigate the worst effects; only now and then should a GM tinker with the core system mechanics in order to reintroduce balance. There are lots of better, intangible, methods that don't penalize players for being lucky or good.
I was DM'ing a D&D game once. One player had his 14th level Mage (he'd been playing him for 2 weeks). Along with his bottomless backpack of tricks, he had GRAFTED TO HIS FINGERS an Anti-Magic ring, and a Regeneration Ring.
It didn't take long after the first combat for his anti-magic ring to render useless his regneration ring
.He also apparently had 6 or 8 "henchmen" of sorts wandering about with him.
These poor souls suffered terrible fates.
The adventure found them on a spaceship (of all things) and bumping into assorted wonders. One of his minions drank a bottle of Ice-9. That was amusing. Another disappeared in a bright flash followed by a bang as the minimal amount of anti-matter broke containment when he opened the "Bottle of Disintegrate". Ooops.
Of course the coup de grace was when they were captured, thrown in to a cell, and the mage managed to cast some firey spell which happened to catch fire to the table that all of their stuff was on. That wasn't so bad, but he had some of those "Bottles of Disintegrate" in his pack, and they didn't fair well when the table collapsed. More bright flashes.
I did something right that game, he managed to break his 3 ring binder with his fist. The other player thought that it was one of the best games he ever played.
You can always out munchkin a munchkin.
Jon Crocker said,
Think of the PC as some old veteran relaying some old war stories to his children about the time he fought in the Twilight War. This story teller would tell the story of all the comrades he lost, the privations he suffered and the struggle to survive, but survive he did, while many of his comrades did not, the reason this is so is because he is the teller of this tale. So you start this story off with the PC telling this story to his grandchildren in 2050, then through the magic if RPG, the PC relives this adventure through GM moderation. Naturally if their are any killing bullets, they hit the NPCs first. The PCs are guaranteed to survive, but this above rule makes it more likely without resorting to superheroics, obscene amounts of hit points, or ultra high armor classes.
The henchmen in "Red Shirts" idea simulates a lucky character. For instance if a group of 100 characters suffers 99% casualities in a fire fight, the 1% who survives and escapes to tell the tale is the PC. There is nothing particularly special about this PC that explains his survival, it was just plain luck that explains why he survived and 99% of his comrades did not. The 99% are the "Red Shirt" henchmen for the purposes of the game, this doesn't mean that the henchmen take orders from the PC. Some of those henchmen could actually be the PC's superior officer.
Think of the PC as some old veteran relaying some old war stories to his children about the time he fought in the Twilight War. This story teller would tell the story of all the comrades he lost, the privations he suffered and the struggle to survive, but survive he did, while many of his comrades did not, the reason this is so is because he is the teller of this tale. So you start this story off with the PC telling this story to his grandchildren in 2050, then through the magic if RPG, the PC relives this adventure through GM moderation. Naturally if their are any killing bullets, they hit the NPCs first. The PCs are guaranteed to survive, but this above rule makes it more likely without resorting to superheroics, obscene amounts of hit points, or ultra high armor classes.
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