Type M Weirdness

[morfydd]

Alternately

The figures that I have seen house ruled for the past 20 years or so and Mongoose has something similar for its system...

500 Cr/ton + 500Cr /parsec ton

low passage = same as 1dton of cargo

Middle Passage
4000 Cr + 4000Cr per parsec

High Passage

5000 Cr + 5000Cr per parsec

still makes it rugged on characters to make it but makes jump2 and 3 ships a lot more viable...and therefore profitable...

 

[HG_B]

How about I tweak a little? I don't have time to scrap it! Push up cargo prices, from Cr1000 to Cr1000/parsec? Push up passenger fees too?

What I meant by scrap is design one based on econ rather than one designed to make it so that people had to turn to other activities to make a living. Yes, cargo rates would necessarily go up (greatly) and so would passenger prices.

Any routes off the main lines would be a lot more expensive to move cargo & people as it would be tramp freighters picking up catch as catch can items.

 

[aramis]

What I meant by scrap is design one based on econ rather than one designed to make it so that people had to turn to other activities to make a living. Yes, cargo rates would necessarily go up (greatly) and so would passenger prices.

Any routes off the main lines would be a lot more expensive to move cargo & people as it would be tramp freighters picking up catch as catch can items.

Not "Greatly"... the actual costs for pure cargo designs in the 400 ton range, designed under Bk5, for J1 are less than book rates.

The numbers, when crunched, show it's possible to make money at book rates, using a pure cargo design, provided one doesn't carry passengers, and does J1 only.

Also note: MGT actually is WORSE on the econ. (Worse still, I ran the numbers for them and showed them how bad their numbers were BEFORE they went to press.)

 

[HG_B]

The numbers, when crunched, show it's possible to make money at book rates, using a pure cargo design, provided one doesn't carry passengers, and does J1 only.

Yes, but we are discussing >J1 so in order to be viable (say a J-3). Unless of course like the rules suggest, trade goods move no further than 1 or perhaps 2 parsecs, ever...

 

[aramis]

Yes, but we are discussing >J1 so in order to be viable (say a J-3). Unless of course like the rules suggest, trade goods move no further than 1 or perhaps 2 parsecs, ever...

Not "ever"... merely "per hop"... And using Bk3 trade with book rates, it's quite doable to make a profit on a J2 ship. Freight is a loss reduction, rather than a goal itself, and the spec lot of cargo becomes the primary income source.

It's a situation remarkably similar to the 1500's and 1600's... the ship bought and sold more often than it carried other's property for long routes; short runs were dominated by carrying other people's risks for fee.

It's both an excellent game decision and not too far from recreating historical issues when communication was essentially speed of travel.

 

[rancke]

Yes, but we are discussing >J1 so in order to be viable (say a J-3). Unless of course like the rules suggest, trade goods move no further than 1 or perhaps 2 parsecs, ever...

Regular jump-1 ships wouldn't usually move more than back and forth between the same two systems, because jump-2 and jump-3 is cheaper than jump-1 across two and three parsecs respectively. Trade goods, on the other hand, can move as far as there are customers willing to pay for the freight. It will just go by higher-jump ships.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Not "ever"... merely "per hop"... And using Bk3 trade with book rates, it's quite doable to make a profit on a J2 ship. Freight is a loss reduction, rather than a goal itself, and the spec lot of cargo becomes the primary income source.

The problem with that is that Book 3 trade isn't terribly realistic. At best it's a very crude representation of a hugely complex situation. Good for adventure role-playing games, good for a Trading Game, but very bad for deducing the underlying "reality" from.

(And I'll add an 'IMO' to avoid getting into a discussion about what is unrealistic about it).


Hans

 

[robject]

Not "ever"... merely "per hop"... And using Bk3 trade with book rates, it's quite doable to make a profit on a J2 ship. Freight is a loss reduction, rather than a goal itself, and the spec lot of cargo becomes the primary income source.

Freight as "imbalance items" sounds similar to the way big ocean freighters will pad their heavy cargo holds with fluffy low-mass toys. Shipping anything is better than shipping nothing, assuming you've already got a profitable load of goods.

 

[rancke]

Incidentally, according to my calculations, jump-2 ships can make a profit on freight and passengers alone, provided they can be sure of being at least 90% full up. Assuming they are doing 35 jumps per yesr, of course. Jump-3 ships can't make a profit that way, and jump-1 ships make out like bandits. Until someone comes along and undercuts them, that is.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Not "ever"... merely "per hop"...

You didn't get what I meant. Hint: It has to do with the inanity of all rates being the same per ton no matter the # parsecs moved in CT. Totally insane rule.

 

[HG_B]

It will just go by higher-jump ships.


Hans

No, because J3 ships won't move for 1000cr a ton. So, freight, in reality wouldn't go more than 2 parsecs in CT.

 

[aramis]

You didn't get what I meant. Hint: It has to do with the inanity of all rates being the same per ton no matter the # parsecs moved in CT. Totally insane rule.

Not totally insane. It can easily be seen as a form of protected monopoly enforced dually by custom and regulation in order to restrict civilian trade flows to J1 and liner flows to J2 without actually admitting such a restriction.

And, given the nature of the expenses, past J3, the costs rise so rapidly as to make it cheaper to use multiple J1's. J2 is the lowest costs per parsec, but requires more than the "standard schedule" 25 jumps per year; a sustainable factor supported route can do 35 jumps per year for about 95% of habitable worlds with 1G drives. (There are some that are too deep in the solar mass-shadow to be reached in under the 24 hours needed for such routes. This allows for the maximum jump duration of 8 days, and a day each end for N-Space travel, and a day for unload/reload/replenish.)

Besides, the real "inanity" is an assumption of price stability for travel/shipping at all. The uniformity of prices is an artifice for playability; otherwise, oen should calculation the demand, and from there the price, for every ton of cargo shipped, and every component of the starship. But that's well outside the realm of enjoyable for most.

 

[HG_B]

Not totally insane. It can easily be seen as a form of protected monopoly enforced dually by custom and regulation in order to restrict civilian trade flows to J1 and liner flows to J2 without actually admitting such a restriction.

Yes, totally insane as it would greatly constrict trade. As it is purported that the 3I is built on interstellar trade, it is nutty beyond belief.

 

[jawillroy]

Yes, totally insane as it would greatly constrict trade. As it is purported that the 3I is built on interstellar trade, it is nutty beyond belief.

IF we assume that all trade is based on LBB2 rules - which we shouldn't, because MWM says it isn't.

 

[HG_B]

IF we assume that all trade is based on LBB2 rules - which we shouldn't, because MWM says it isn't.

In CT, show what rules trade is based on.

I'll wait.

 

[jawillroy]

In CT, show what rules trade is based on.

I'll wait.

Mark Miller is on record for saying that the trade rules in CT are only really meant to cover PC level trade. "Although I want the systems to define how the whole world works, I also understand that they can’t. The trade system was intended to define what a typical Free Trader could expect to make, and skewed slightly hard, to encourage supplemental activity to make up for the losses that Trade seemed to generate."

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=360342&postcount=2

If that's not good enough, you're certainly free to houserule to your heart's content. That's what I do, anyway.

IMTU, the fixed per-jump prices are set by Imperial fiat: corporations with the Imperial Privilege (earned via noble connections, decades of petitioning and rock-solid loyalty) are granted a subsidy to maintain the long-jump routes, but the price-fix is there to insure that there be jump-1 service to worlds that would otherwise be skipped. YMMV.

 

[far-trader]

You didn't get what I meant. Hint: It has to do with the inanity of all rates being the same per ton no matter the # parsecs moved in CT. Totally misinterpreted rule.

Fixed that for you

In CT, show what rules trade is based on.

I'll wait.

I, for one, find that tone repeatedly annoying. And to not keep you waiting too long for an answer...

In CT, show what trade ships player characters will have.

I'll wait.

 

[jawillroy]

I, for one, find that tone repeatedly annoying.

I, too, as it happens. Makes it less pleasant to participate here by a whole lot.

 

[far-trader]

Not totally insane. It can easily be seen as a form of protected monopoly enforced dually by custom and regulation in order to restrict civilian trade flows to J1 and liner flows to J2 without actually admitting such a restriction.

Yes, totally insane as it would greatly constrict trade. As it is purported that the 3I is built on interstellar trade, it is nutty beyond belief.

So who said it was free interstellar trade? Or even fair interstellar trade? It is quite likely (I'd say clearly) interstellar trade skewed in the favour of building said Imperium. In Imperial interests. Not those of the member worlds. Hence all kinds of restrictions on interstellar trade and travel. You're forgetting the other side of the Imperium equation. Who rules the space between the stars? And just how do you think they'd do that being based on Interstellar trade? Have you read about the Imperium's early years and Trade Wars? How about the ongoing MegaCorp's Trade Wars (light versions)?

This is not your ancient Terran father's "trading" restricted to a small insignificant world

Besides, the real "inanity" is an assumption of price stability for travel/shipping at all. The uniformity of prices is an artifice for playability; otherwise, one should calculation the demand, and from there the price, for every ton of cargo shipped, and every component of the starship. But that's well outside the realm of enjoyable for most.

Q. F. T.

 

[McPerth]

Even so, I like the rules on Bk3 quite more than those in Merchant Prince, where huge profits are expected at any run, if you think a little.

MT uses exactly the same rules, and I've already talked about my opinion on it in MT forum, MT traveller variant, post nº 12 (dec 8th 2010)

PS: Sorry, my computer 1/2 skill is not enough to put links. I guess I must learn that soon...