Type M Weirdness

[shadowcat20]

Seems to me moving other peoples cargo should be for Subbies. If you are not subbed then speculate and make your own profit.

It takes a bit of number crunching but it is doable. Mail runs are a big plus also.

Then take a chapter from the airlines and hit em with all sorts of extra fees.

Need extra stowage? That will cast you 2K per half ton.

Basic food packets not good enough at meals? 2 K per week for hand prepped meals served by a non robotic steward.

Laundry? 500 per week

Vidio usage in the lounge? 100

Piped into your stateroom? 500

Vac suit rentals? 100 on retainer, 1K in an emergency...:devil:

So on and so forth.

I like the rider of 5K per parsec after the first for a jump. Still cheaper than short hops.

 

[HG_B]

Mark Miller is on record for saying that the trade rules in CT are only really meant to cover PC level trade. "Although I want the systems to define how the whole world works, I also understand that they can’t. The trade system was intended to define what a typical Free Trader could expect to make, and skewed slightly hard, to encourage supplemental activity to make up for the losses that Trade seemed to generate."

Yes, as I pointed out. It isn't about real econ but, forcing PCs into non-trading activities. ERGO: Not a logical econ system.

 

[HG_B]

You're forgetting the other side of the Imperium equation. Who rules the space between the stars?

You are forgetting where the 3I derives its income...

QFT

 

[jawillroy]

Yes, as I pointed out. It isn't about real econ but, forcing PCs into non-trading activities. ERGO: Not a logical econ system.

I don't see how anyone could expect a logical economic system to apply to a randomly designed Traveller universe. The trade rules, such as they are, pre-date any sort of OTU. Anything beyond the Free Trader scale rules in LBB2 (and heck, those too) lies in the realm of "you're the referree: you suss it out."

 

[rancke]

So who said it was free interstellar trade? Or even fair interstellar trade? It is quite likely (I'd say clearly) interstellar trade skewed in the favour of building said Imperium.

But that is based on the assumptions that price fixing the cost of transportation in the way indicated by the rules is a) beneficial for the Imperium and b) enforceable. I beg leave to doubt both.

In Imperial interests. Not those of the member worlds.

The high-tech, high-population worlds ARE the Imperium. Anything that only affects the medium- and low-population worlds and the medium- and low-tech worlds is one thing. The Imperium might even get away with oppressing a smaller sub-set of the high-tech, high-population worlds. But something as broad as this? Totally implausible.

Hence all kinds of restrictions on interstellar trade and travel.

That's another aspect of the situation. Is that really the impression you get of the Imperium when you read the adventures and the background descriptions? What I read about are congested starports filled to the brim with travelers, regular jump-4 passenger liners, worlds with massive off-world tourist industries... in short, interstellar trade and travel with little or no restrictions other than the natural ones imposed by basic economics (And even there I don't get the impression that the original authors really grasped how much money Cr8000 actually is).

Personally, I think that what the Traveller Universe need is more affordable star travel. Especially long-distance travel. The GT figures are far more to my liking.

You're forgetting the other side of the Imperium equation. Who rules the space between the stars? And just how do you think they'd do that being based on Interstellar trade? Have you read about the Imperium's early years and Trade Wars? How about the ongoing MegaCorp's Trade Wars (light versions)?

The Imperium rules by virtue of its navy, which is supported by taxing the member worlds in direct proportion to the military budgets of said worlds. That makes the Imperium more powerful than any single sector full of member worlds. But the Imperium is still a lot less powerful than its member worlds acting in concert. But that's all right as long as the Imperium doesn't annoy all of them simultaneously.


Hans

 

[rancke]

No, because J3 ships won't move for 1000cr a ton.

No, but they will move for quite a bit less than Cr3000 a ton. So they will offer the owner of the freight to buy his stuff for X credits per ton and sell it to his customers three parsecs away for X+2500 credits per ton and it will be perfectly legal because the freighter isn't shipping freight but cargo.

(Assuming for purposes of argument that the Imperium would actually impose such a silly and unenforceable regulation).


Hans

 

[aramis]

Yes, as I pointed out. It isn't about real econ but, forcing PCs into non-trading activities. ERGO: Not a logical econ system.

The typical free trader is a Jump 1 ship. It's not the J2 nor J3.

You are forgetting where the 3I derives its income...

QFT

It taxes the worlds. That's the canon answer. See Striker.

 

[Mithras]

I've had some successes with the type M now.

Using a 35 jump/year rota, I can earn a decent Cr200,000 profit per month running only jump 3, with 4 high psg, 17 mid psg and 20 low berths. But I have to install a fuel purifier so I can buy unrefined fuel and purify it myself.

Now I have to change my routes in District 268 to incorporate a new jump 3 flight plan. Note I'm using Mongoose T for this exercise...

 

[aramis]

I've had some successes with the type M now.

Using a 35 jump/year rota, I can earn a decent Cr200,000 profit per month running only jump 3, with 4 high psg, 17 mid psg and 20 low berths. But I have to install a fuel purifier so I can buy unrefined fuel and purify it myself.

Now I have to change my routes in District 268 to incorporate a new jump 3 flight plan. Note I'm using Mongoose T for this exercise...

Did you remember the increased steward rates in MGT? And did you use the MGT fare rates?

You'll need also to pay your factors on each world...

 

[mike wightman]

I've had some successes with the type M now.

Using a 35 jump/year rota, I can earn a decent Cr200,000 profit per month running only jump 3, with 4 high psg, 17 mid psg and 20 low berths. But I have to install a fuel purifier so I can buy unrefined fuel and purify it myself.

Now I have to change my routes in District 268 to incorporate a new jump 3 flight plan. Note I'm using Mongoose T for this exercise...

Is there more than one ship?

Is the route fixed?

If so build the fuel purifier on each world and save the space on the ship

 

[aramis]

[...] build the fuel purifier on each world and save the space on the ship

That also requires adding a PP and an engineer at each station... or paying for power feed. Which said power feed isn't covered in the extant rules. And at least 2x as many FPP's.

 

[mike wightman]

Yes, but look at how quickly they pay for themselves.

This to me is the difference between the free traders and the organised merchant lines/mega corps.

The large merchant lines and megacorps will have this sort of infrastructure - and the factors you mentioned booking the passengers. They will also have brokers preparing the cargos for transit - another of my long held view is that megacorps don't ship freight for others.
They buy the commodities from one world and ship them to world where they will make a profit - speculative trading on a grand scale.

 

[rancke]

I once calculated that the point where small regular freighters save more money from having an onboard fuel purifier and buying unrefined fuel than they lose in revenue from the reduced cargo capacity is around Cr300 per dT. In other words, if refined fuel actually costs Cr500 per dT (and unrefined Cr100), there will hardly be any buyers for it.

Of course, I made a lot of assumptions, so the "real" breakeven point may be a little different, but I'm pretty sure it would be quite a bit lower than Cr500.


Hans

 

[Mithras]

I am using MGT scaled rates, not sure about the steward costs, the book lists wages as Cr2000/month.

Route will be fixed, I have to redo it though. I had two ships leaving Mertactor, one doing the 'northern' circuit, the other doing the 'southern' circuit. But that was all done jump 2 so as not to miss out important worlds. Now I can't afford j2, I'm going to have to come up with a j3 route for District 268 that makes sense!

Mmm? Building processors at the relevant ports? That would work, the line is Ellis-Itami, a trade house from Mertactor with long established links in the area. I think factors/offices/ticket sales etc can be handled by the Ellis-Itami administration that is not connected with day-to-day ship finances.

 

[Mithras]

Well on the purifying issue, its time. My schedule is very tight, 3 days in normal space between jumps. I have to purify my fuel after fuelling on the second day, giving me a maximum (pushing it) of 1 day before I jump to purify that fuel. My fuel tanks aren't too big (200 tons) so I can get away with 10 tons of processor costing Cr500,000. Thats a loss of Cr14,000 cargo revenue per jump. But it saves me Cr18,000 each jump in fuel bills. So I will make the money back to pay for the processor, but it will take 125 jumps! Thats 3 and a half years!

Maybe a ground based processor is better, particularly if I have two or more ships on the route. That way I don't loose that Cr14,000 per jump and the Cr500,000 cost of the machinery is split between the 2 or 3 ships.

For much bigger ships (1000 - 5000 ton) the costs to process that amount of fuel in a day will be astronomical I'm sure.

I once calculated that the point where small regular freighters save more money from having an onboard fuel purifier and buying unrefined fuel than they lose in revenue from the reduced cargo capacity is around Cr300 per dT. In other words, if refined fuel actually costs Cr500 per dT (and unrefined Cr100), there will hardly be any buyers for it.

Of course, I made a lot of assumptions, so the "real" breakeven point may be a little different, but I'm pretty sure it would be quite a bit lower than Cr500.


Hans

 

[Mithras]

That's interesting.

Company X on Collace needs 100 tons of specialist machine parts for an automated factory. It contacts the Ellis-Itami factor on Collace who message Mertactor and arrange for purchase, shipment and resale?

Or would Ellis-Itami be shipping these goods ad hoc... in holds, hoping to make a killing. Holding goods in warehouses on their routes waiting for that crucial customer to appear. Factors on Collace and elsewhere busily selling everything from frozen meat to farm machinery, diamonds to reconditioned vacc suits on behalf of Ellis-Itami, or putting it back into the holds for shipment somewhere more lucrative ...?

Interesting. But it would make calculating profitability of a ship ... impossible!! :0

They will also have brokers preparing the cargos for transit - another of my long held view is that megacorps don't ship freight for others.
They buy the commodities from one world and ship them to world where they will make a profit - speculative trading on a grand scale.

 

[rancke]

Company X on Collace needs 100 tons of specialist machine parts for an automated factory. It contacts the Ellis-Itami factor on Collace who message Mertactor and arrange for purchase, shipment and resale?

Most regular freight will be stuff that Collace needs in bulk today and is going to need in bulk for the forseeable future. The occasional once-in-a-while needs will be sandwiched in between the regular bulk transactions.


Hans