Unconventional Naval Warfare

[belter]

If a pocket empire has so many ways to turn itself into a poison pill a smart potential invader would prep the PE by implementing its own massive psyops / spec ops plan to critically weaken its resolve and ability to resist an invasion before sending in the fleet. A strictly conventional naval invasion would be leaving too much to chance.

It would be interesting to model this aspect of a conflict in a fleet combat game.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Nice thought but I don't think that Combat Armor, especially TL-14 combat armor, compares at all to MOPP suits. It appears to be fairly comfortable, (based on the rules for it) it does more than keep off the nasty stuff you can't see, and provides complete protection against Biological and Chemical weapons. Since it is also a Vacc Suit it won't even be hot to wear. Man I wish we had something that made those stupid MOPP suits more bearable in the heat. Make yourself enough of a pain and they just might decide to terraform your capital with you still on it.

The big idea though is to make them look someplace else.

Originally posted by jappel:
Actually, Paraquat has a good point. It depends on how much public opition can affect the opposing government, but I'd put some serious bucks into a covert psyops propaganda campaign. Find some semi-respected folks who think that invading your PE is a bad idea and get them onto the pundit circuit. You want the other side's Joe Sixpack to be saying "Hey, what's this place got that's worth fighting over?"

It's not a given that it will work, but a little money can go a long, long way here.

On the home front, if it looked like invasion was inevitable, I'd go the Swiss Defense route. Put a gun / missle launcher / laser battery / whatever on every single rock in your system. Break up a couple of planetoids and give your mainworld a bunch of small new satellites and pack'em full of weapons. When the bad guys come, blow up some more planetoids and fill your orbital spaces with so much junk that assault shuttles will be flying through a field of flying gravel.

Hmm, back to psyops, start spreading rumors about the devastating biological agents you're willing to release on any invaders. Yes, combat troops can fight in protective gear, but it's a tremendous drain on their efficiency, and you simply can't remain in protective gear all the time.

Basically, convince the other side that you're a poison pill. Sure, they'll beat you in the end, but the victory will be Pyrrhic. If they get the message up front, you may win without firing a shot.

John

 

[vegascat]

In any war, the true target is the will to fight. When enough of the right people are convinced that fighting is useless, the war is over. Psyops is the true weapon infinately more powerful than bombs and bullets.
The Nazis had to believe that they were not the supermen they were convinced they were. That took 5 years of continuous war.
The Japanese in 1945 would have fought to extinction. Two bombs that each destroyed a city convinced their Emporer and military council that fighting further would only end in the complete extinction of the Japanese race.
General Adid convinced the American public that it would cost too much with no real benefit for the USA to stay in Somali.
The defenders of the Alamo had no real idea what their sacrifice would generate.
The spartans under Leonidas knew they were the best fighting organization in their world. They knew they had to delay Xerxes and his 200,000 troops with their 300. They were not defeated even whipped out to the last man. They did delay the Persions long enough for the rest of the Greeks to mobilize and defeat Xerses.

The war is over when the will to fight is over.

Side note

Origionally posted by Bhoins
Nice thought but I don't think that Combat Armor, especially TL-14 combat armor, compares at all to MOPP suits. It appears to be fairly comfortable,

TL14 Combat armor is a hard suit. I have worn MOPP2 and MOPP4 for extended periods of time. The heat is definately a problem, but it still doesn't compair to a hard suit. I have fought in SCA armor, Plate, coat of plates, chainmail, and leather. Even with long term heavy training in hard armor, after 12 hours a person is combat ineffective. Unless the hardsuit is fully supportive, pain becomes a factor with spinal and joint compression. Powered battledress will be fully supportive, but nonpowered combat armor would not be. By TL14, the heat problems would be alleviated as would the persperation problems. To get an idea of how uncomfortable armor is, watch how long it takes for the dear to come off after an all clear is sounded. It takes about 9 seconds to get a mask on and operational, or 2 seconds to peel a mask off. After an SCA combat, the sounds you hear are gauntlets, then helms, then torso protection hitting the ground. Calls for water quickly follow. The reason gauntlets hit the ground first is it is quicker to peel the other armor off wiht bare hands.

Back to the subject, to defend against a superior foe. To really defend against a stronger military foe, the cheapest action is to give that opponent someone else to worry about. An expansionist force is sure to have more enemies than just you. Steal a ship of enemy A and start commerce raiding against Enemy B who has the power to hurt Enemy A, then Enemy A and Enemy B should waste their power fighting each other while you can build up and make alliances to put yourself in a position to never have to worry about Enemy A or B for a long time. This works best with a few blackops missions to give both enemies more reason to hate each other. Messy assasinations, chemical or bio weapons, and political dove party targets. Afterall, your aim is to keep from being invaded as effectively as possible. This way, you risk none of your oun ships, few of your people, and get lots of entertaining news to broadcast. What more could you want?

 

[Drakon]

If your psyops campaign involves making payments to enemy talking heads, be damn sure to cover it up very very well. If that gets leaked out that your pundit is paid by your PE, the guy will be lynched and that makes it just that much harder for anyone to parrot what the first pundit said.

Concerning Pyrric victories: Good idea as long as you are believed to have the capability of doing it. It is widely believed that Israel has nukes and has adopted the "Samson" plan, by which if they are ever forced into the sea, all Arab capitals will get nuked. Mecca, Medina, Riyadh, Damascus, Cairo, etc. Israelis have a reputation of being pretty smart, and because it is believed that they have the bombs, no Arab army has gone against Israel since 1972.

Which is one reason why Palestinian terrorism is being tried. It gives any Arab government plausible deniability, and therefore prevents Israel from proving that she has nukes.

You don't actually have to have the nukes, just have the reputation, or the perception of having them and willing to use them.

Which brings another point up. No matter how strong you are militarily, if it is perceived that you are unwilling to use the full force of that military, it is effectively useless. Worse, it gives the other side the idea that it can win, that you won't hurt them nearly as bad they are willing to hurt you. A perception of weakness invites trouble.

 

[Tanuki]

Originally posted by belter:
2. If you can destroy 2 or 3 major assets within 1 month after the invasion begins (a base, 10k+ ships) the enemy gov't will deem the cost too high and withdraw.

Limpet mines or a sabotaged missile or three in a good sized missile magazine, timed to go off after the enemy ship has gone into jump. Screw up the jump grid and or hull integrety and the ship never comes out of jump, or misjumps badly. Do it on enough ships and the losses quickly become unacceptable.

And all the enemy knows is that those ships jump and are never seen again.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by vegascat:
Side note
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Origionally posted by Bhoins
Nice thought but I don't think that Combat Armor, especially TL-14 combat armor, compares at all to MOPP suits. It appears to be fairly comfortable,

TL14 Combat armor is a hard suit. I have worn MOPP2 and MOPP4 for extended periods of time. The heat is definately a problem, but it still doesn't compair to a hard suit. I have fought in SCA armor, Plate, coat of plates, chainmail, and leather. Even with long term heavy training in hard armor, after 12 hours a person is combat ineffective. Unless the hardsuit is fully supportive, pain becomes a factor with spinal and joint compression. Powered battledress will be fully supportive, but nonpowered combat armor would not be. By TL14, the heat problems would be alleviated as would the persperation problems. To get an idea of how uncomfortable armor is, watch how long it takes for the dear to come off after an all clear is sounded. It takes about 9 seconds to get a mask on and operational, or 2 seconds to peel a mask off. After an SCA combat, the sounds you hear are gauntlets, then helms, then torso protection hitting the ground. Calls for water quickly follow. The reason gauntlets hit the ground first is it is quicker to peel the other armor off wiht bare hands.

</font>[/QUOTE]I have also worn MOPP4 IN the Summer in the Desert, or worse at Ft. Hood, TX.

It is cumbersom and a pain to wear. Now if we limit ourselves to a rule set that gives a clue as to how uncomfortable armor is to wear, the T20 rules has it built in with Max Dex modifiers and Movement penalties. A Tailored Vaccsuit has no movement penality and a Max Dex modifier of +6 and no Armor Check penalty. A Leather Jacket has a Max Dex modifier of +8 no Armor Check penalty and no movement modifier. Full Plate Armor has a max dex bonus of +1, Armor Check Penalty of -6 and slows you down 3M. Combat Environment Suit, Closest thing to MOPP suit in Traveller is Max Dex bonus of +2 Armor Check Penalty of -3 and slows you down 3m. TL14 Combat Armor does weigh twice as much as a Combat Environment suit and does slow you down 3M but has a max Dex modifier of +6 and no armor check penalty. I guess they have learned how to build comfortable body armor over the years. I have never worn SCA armor or medevil armor of any type but I have worn Military Body Armor, it is heavy but comfortable. I have slept in it. (Including the helmet.) While I have slept in MOPP4, I wouldn't recommend the experience, especially in the Summer where you are likely to dehydrate and become a heat casualty, Modern Body Armor isn't the same thing. Futuristic Body Armor isn't likely to render you combat ineffective. Matter of fact MOPP 4 didn't render us Combat Ineffective, though it did pretty much stop me from doing my active duty job, it didn't stop me from being combat effective when I was Infantry in the Guard. (I was an Army Interrogator and you can't conduct an effective Interrogation, especially in a foreign language, with a Mask on both of you.

You did have to exchange suits and filters every 8 hours, or less depending on the type of agent, it did slow you down and restrict your vision and hearing but it didn't render you combat ineffective. I have spent weeks at MOPP2 and there were no decrease, at all, in our combat effectiveness. I guess it is all a matter of training.

 

[jatay3]

Signing a pact with the Imperiums enemies may not be wise. They might also have designs on you. You might be escapeing the lion by jumping into the crocidiles
mouth, so to speak.
When countries in the past were faced with this situation the most successful strategies seemed to be variations of these:

Swiss Porcupine: make oneself so hard a nut to crack that the benefits of conquest outway the cost. The traditional Swiss strategy

Ping-Pong:

A little trickier. One must jump from one side to the other always taking the side of the second most powerful player. If you take the side of the first, you will simply help him gobble up all your potential allies. I actually made this work twice in two separate Risk games.

Gang-up: Being a part of an alliance of near equals gives you more room to manuever than playing follow the leader. It also puts you in a more dignified position.

 

[Bolan]

Oh what twisted webs we weave . . .

 

[BetterThanLife]

Of course the most obvious choice is to let their intelligence find out through multiple trusted sources that you have aquired a few Darrian "Star Triggers," (AKA Nova Bombs) and aren't afraid to use them.

Oh and they are deployed on ships that are out on long range training missions. (In otherwords already deployed.)

 

[jatay3]

wiss Porcupine: make oneself so hard a nut to crack that the [benefits] of conquest outway the [cost]. The traditional Swiss strategy

forgive the typo. obviously you should make cost should outway benefit for a potential invader

 

[BetterThanLife]

Benefit may not be what you actually possess. Kinda dicey there. Perhaps you are along a potential trade route, a possible avenue of advance into a major threat, a defensive node, a critical refuel point. One of the major things that kept the Swiss safe wasn't the people being armed, it is very difficult to cross the country. It is much easier to go around. The same thing happened to the Allies during WWII at Monte Casino. Can't drive through go around. Switzerland has a major advantage in that it is virtually impossible to drive across and going around is fairly flat and easy to drive through. Just like Russia's two best Generals defeated Germany, Switerzland's best general kept Germany out. (Russia's two best Generals are General January and General February. Switerzland's General Mountaineous Terrain.

In Space you don't have that luxury, unless you don't have a Gas Giant and are more than Jump-2 from anyone. Then you are a tough nut to crack. Otherwise you can't pretend to be Switzerland.

 

[Bolan]

Is anyone aware of a way to make a gas giant unusable for at least a few weeks during a conflict without spending trillions of credits do it?

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Belasko:
Is anyone aware of a way to make a gas giant unusable for at least a few weeks during a conflict without spending trillions of credits do it?

Mines?* And warning beacons. Or just the warning beacons if the enemy is gullible enough

And maybe a badly damaged hull deep in the GG to help set the scene.

*By which of course I mean smartish mines. Basically missile racks set into an orbit within the GG and complete with a minimal computer/sensor/commo package.

One simple version in CT/HG/T20 terms:

A triple turret launcher and a model 0 computer, sensors and commo: 1.0 tons, Mcr3.0 (discounted).

Autonomous with up to 4 weeks operation, or unlimited endurance if placed in a fuel skimming position (i.e. near water, ice or GG). Missiles extra (maximum 9 missiles installed). May be reassigned and/or rearmed with proper codes. Individual launchers may be grouped under a master combat platform (an autonomous computer, sensor, and commo of higher capability) for more effectiveness.

This is a military item only and is not (legally) available to civilians. Placing mines is best handled by specially equipped mine-laying ships but they may be (poorly) placed by simple manual insertion or planting.

 

[theachilles]

The book Freehold by Michael Z. Williamson should give you a few ideas as to how to make an invading force back down through acts of sabotage on Military bases and Civilian population centers (most covered above but with a little more information in the book) Mostly you need to wait until the force already has invaded your space to give yourself the "Moral Hi Ground" in taking the war back to their space. Going after they logistics supply will hurt them the worst for the least loss, they cant fight if they have no food or bullets. If you cant stop the supplies from coming into your system then destroy it at there distribution centers or manufacturing centers. But basically count on loosing the first stages of the war and use the time to preposition your forces to counter attack their supply centers.

 

[jatay3]

Russia's two best Generals are General January and General February.


Don't forget General March. I understand the mud can be awful there and generals fear it more than the winter.

 

[MJD]

Raspudista - the season of mud.

 

[vutpakdi]

Originally posted by Belasko:
Is anyone aware of a way to make a gas giant unusable for at least a few weeks during a conflict without spending trillions of credits do it?

I doubt it given that gas giants tend to be really huge. Placing some mines in a gas giant really isn't going to be helpful given the shear scale involved.

SDBs in the gas giant well might work for harassment, but that's only because they can move to concentrate on a particular spot (where refueling is taking place) whereas some passive defense can't.

Ron

 

[BetterThanLife]

Mines, depending on the mines, could actually be very effective. Obviously contact mines sitting around aren't worth a damn. However mines with a ranged weapon, like a one shot missile launcher might prove effective in quantity. The problem is, as it has always been, that fixed fortifications and obstacles are useless without a covering element. Putting up a minefield and Barbed wire without a couple of machineguns to cover the area is useless. Mining a Harbor without ships to cover it, and/or shore batteries is useless. Shore Batteries by themselves are useless. It gives the enemy a fixed target and allows the enemy the opportunity to attack it with their best weapons at a time of their choosing. Mines, that can differenuate between friend and foe, that launch missiles in an area covered by your ships is a useful idea. Problem is there is no rule set for mine warfare in Traveller. Which means you have to figure it out the hard way.

Originally posted by Ron Vutpakdi:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Belasko:
Is anyone aware of a way to make a gas giant unusable for at least a few weeks during a conflict without spending trillions of credits do it?

I doubt it given that gas giants tend to be really huge. Placing some mines in a gas giant really isn't going to be helpful given the shear scale involved.

SDBs in the gas giant well might work for harassment, but that's only because they can move to concentrate on a particular spot (where refueling is taking place) whereas some passive defense can't.

Ron </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[vutpakdi]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Mines, depending on the mines, could actually be very effective.

Sorry, I still don't buy the argument that enough mines could be deployed in/around a gas giant to make them effective against a significant invading force.

How many mines (range weapon or missile) would be required to effectively prevent someone from skimming the atmosphere of the Earth? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?

Okay, now let's assume that our gas giant is Saturn sized. Saturn is 10x the diameter of Earth. If my fuzzy math skills are right, you'd need about 100x more mines than you'd need for the Earth. That's a lot of mines to build and deploy. And, a determined enemy could just sit then and whack at the mines in a relatively localized area until enough were cleared to allow refueling.

Ron

 

[belter]

The only inexpensive option appears to be some kind of weapons platform that can seek out GG skimmers and attack them. This would not prevent an enemy refueling but hopefully draw resources away from other operations and slow their advance.

Another tactic that comes to mind is to have a way to have robots that attach themselves to skimming vessels and do the following:
1) use antipersonnel weapons against anyone trying to remove them,
2) self destruct if tampered with, and
3) release when the vessel is about to jump in order to increase the chance of a misjump (T20 handbook, pg 267, "Drop Tanks").

A carrier would be needed to deploy and recover these robots that is quick and able to withstand punishment while getting close enough to release a small swarm that could attach to enemy ships. It may be cost prohibitive to build large numbers of these ships that can withstand repeated encounters with warships.