If you know what is possible ahead of time, you save time in experimentation.
Uplifted Roman Empire
- Thread starter Werner
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If you know what is possible ahead of time, you save time in experimentation.
The time traveler should come back with a durable, meter stick with mm markings, and from this everything else is derived.
Call your story "The Stick".
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
What goes into making this? What are the requisite technologies?
I'm asking because it shows something that you or I might take for granted as "simple" really isn't simple at all when you look at all the underlying technologies necessary to make one.
What goes into making this? What are the requisite technologies?
I'm asking because it shows something that you or I might take for granted as "simple" really isn't simple at all when you look at all the underlying technologies necessary to make one.
The Roman's advance 1 tech level every 20 years, faster that what we did in real history, but the Roman's know which way to go and don't waste time pursuing dead ends, like trying to turn lead into gold, so they have to advance 6 tech levels before they have to worry about how to construct a microchip, so that gives them 120 years to think about it.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
An engineer offered to haul some huge columns up to the Capitol at moderate expense by a simple mechanical contrivance, but Vespasian declined his services; ‘I must always ensure,’ he said ‘that the working classes earn enough money to buy themselves food.’ Nevertheless, he paid the engineer a very handsome fee.
[Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars]
[Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars]
That's a long time and not a long time, and it's a lot of stuff to cram in to 120 years.
It's not just knowledge that has to scale, it's also infrastructure.
And not just infrastructure, but social institutions.
We barely had the political will to get another moon landing, and that was only after less than 10 years of effort. A long range, multigenerational, 120++ year plan is real trick to pull off.
We don't even know if the central government can survive 120 years of break neck technological growth, much less when stuff leaks out to competing powers -- and don't think it won't.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
But to do it whether it's now or in 120 years, they need to invent plastics, photography, glass fiber, thin film manufacture, optical lenses for magnification, high quality glass manufacturing, manufacture of precision drill bits and drilling machines, an accurate x-y table able to move in thousandths of an inch, silk screen printing, photo etching metal, the chemicals and solvents for that, plastics based paints (oils won't work), a completely new system of mathematics (Roman numerals and methods won't work), among other technologies.
They have to do all of that while inventing a myriad of other stuff along the way.
Even something as basic as a carbon resistor requires plastics, accurate manufacture of wire, manufacture of consistent quality lamp black, and the ability to accurately assemble all the components in quantity production.
That's just going to roughly 1960's levels of technology (about TL 6).
From birth it's going to take about 20 to 25 years to produce a generation of scientists, engineers, and technicians that are trained not only in current methods, but the next series of advances, and these guys will be just coming out of schools with no experience at that point. Yet, they're going to be expected to be able to just jump right in, make few or no mistakes and implement another huge round of technological advances as they do.
I'm not seeing it.
But to do it whether it's now or in 120 years, they need to invent plastics, photography, glass fiber, thin film manufacture, optical lenses for magnification, high quality glass manufacturing, manufacture of precision drill bits and drilling machines, an accurate x-y table able to move in thousandths of an inch, silk screen printing, photo etching metal, the chemicals and solvents for that, plastics based paints (oils won't work), a completely new system of mathematics (Roman numerals and methods won't work), among other technologies.
They have to do all of that while inventing a myriad of other stuff along the way.
Even something as basic as a carbon resistor requires plastics, accurate manufacture of wire, manufacture of consistent quality lamp black, and the ability to accurately assemble all the components in quantity production.
That's just going to roughly 1960's levels of technology (about TL 6).
From birth it's going to take about 20 to 25 years to produce a generation of scientists, engineers, and technicians that are trained not only in current methods, but the next series of advances, and these guys will be just coming out of schools with no experience at that point. Yet, they're going to be expected to be able to just jump right in, make few or no mistakes and implement another huge round of technological advances as they do.
I'm not seeing it.
We teach our children to function in a technological civilization, I can't imagine the children of the Roman Empire were much different from our own, they are just as capable of learning new things as our own children are. What you are talking about is engineering. Not science, these Roman's can learn the science just as well as our children can, they can learn the periodic table of the elements, Einstein's theory of relativity, quantum uncertainty, they can learn about quarks and subatomic particles, they have not got the technology, but we're giving them the science, which is something the real Roman's of our own history, this saves them a lot of time stumbling around in the dark under false notions of how the Universe works. A generation is 20 years, so there is 14 generations of humans going from tech level 1 to tech level 15, starting from 113 AD and add 280 years, this brings us to 393 AD, at which point the Empire catches up with the Third Imperium. I don't think every detail of how to recreate this technology will be included in the library, but it will show them what is possible and the basic ideas on how to achieve it, and through trial and error they fill in the little details that are not covered and may come up with different solutions that we're not previously thought of.
I had the idea of releasing this Roman civilization upon The New Era setting. The Third Imperium has collapsed and the Roman enter filling the vacuum, they don't have the population the third Imperium had, but they could make a start at replacing it. The Virus ships will attack them of course, but they won't be able to infect or take over Roman Starships because their operating systems and microchips are not compatible with what the Virus was designed to infect and take over, so it will be a bunch of physical battles between Roman and Virus controlled starships.
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
You have to build the tools to build the tools.
Or, I believe an experiment in Ethiopia had the researchers give the kids a bunch of tablets, and let them figure it out.
Or, I believe an experiment in Ethiopia had the researchers give the kids a bunch of tablets, and let them figure it out.
I say 280 years is plenty of time to do all that stuff. Most of our technological innovation occured in the last 200 years, there is more difference between now and 1821 than there is between 1821 and 113 AD. Gunpowder was discovered by accident, not through directed research, and that is the main difference between what was available in 1821 and what the Roman's had in 113. Probably all the stuff invented between 113 and 1821 could be accomplished in the first 20 years, and the rest of the stuff could be figured out in the following 260 years.
Krikkitone
SOC-12
I’d seriously disagree
113-1821 involved substantial advances in machinery/ metalworking...it could definitely be compressed (give the Romans gunpowder and a physics and chemistry textbook and they could probably get to 1821 in 200 years...but not 20)
113-1821 involved substantial advances in machinery/ metalworking...it could definitely be compressed (give the Romans gunpowder and a physics and chemistry textbook and they could probably get to 1821 in 200 years...but not 20)
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
In the microelectronics industry, a semiconductor fabrication plant (commonly called a fab; sometimes foundry) is a factory where devices such as integrated circuits are manufactured.[1]
A business that operates for the purpose of fabricating the designs of other companies, such as fabless semiconductor companies, is known as a semiconductor fab, or a foundry. If a foundry does not also produce its own designs, it is known as a pure-play semiconductor foundry.[2] When a foundry produces its own designs, it is known as an integrated device manufacturer (IDM).
Fabs require many expensive devices to function. Estimates put the cost of building a new fab over one billion U.S. dollars with values as high as $3–4 billion not being uncommon. TSMC invested $9.3 billion in its Fab15 300 mm wafer manufacturing facility in Taiwan.[3] The same company estimations suggest that their future fab might cost $20 billion.[4]
A business that operates for the purpose of fabricating the designs of other companies, such as fabless semiconductor companies, is known as a semiconductor fab, or a foundry. If a foundry does not also produce its own designs, it is known as a pure-play semiconductor foundry.[2] When a foundry produces its own designs, it is known as an integrated device manufacturer (IDM).
Fabs require many expensive devices to function. Estimates put the cost of building a new fab over one billion U.S. dollars with values as high as $3–4 billion not being uncommon. TSMC invested $9.3 billion in its Fab15 300 mm wafer manufacturing facility in Taiwan.[3] The same company estimations suggest that their future fab might cost $20 billion.[4]
The Roman Empire had a population of 60 million, I think that is enough to run an industrial economy including chip fabrication in time.
Not really sure what the point is here.
I mean, "so what".
Apparently the US dropped $280B, inflation adjusted, on the Apollo program.
If the "NeoRomans" decide to "moon shot" chip production, heck, this is cheap.
US economy $25T, Govt budget $4T. So, $9B isn't much of a blip on that radar.
Taiwan economy is $750B, Govt budget of $25B. Obviously a bigger bite, the the Taiwan Govt isn't footing the bill.
If you spread that over 3 years, its $3B per year.
And, mind, this fab is designed to to fuel a large chunk of global demand, vs the NeoRoman Space Navy.
First you need the Agricultural Revolution to transform the 48+ million farmers into something else, otherwise you only have a workforce equivalent to a modern country of 12 million people (about 6 million workers).
Then you need to completely retrain 24 million farmers for industrial jobs.
I do not think that advancing more than 1 TL per generation (20 years) is realistic from a “social upheaval” perspective. It creates a world in which there is no expectation of stability ... the job your grandfather did ceased to exist by the time you were born and the job your father did ceased to exist by the time you graduated college. By the time your children start college, you will need to retrain because your cutting edge job will no longer be needed and by the time you are 60, your second career will cease to exist as a profession.
40 years between TLs would at least allow everyone to have one job for their whole working life (age 20-60).
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
The more I think about it, the more nonviable I think the project is.
It's not mine, and it's more of an intellectual exercise.
However, a number of factors have happened to fall in place as I did consider it.
If the idea is to kickstart the Industrial Revolution early, and leave the Roman Empire in tact until contact with the First Imperium, I rather doubt that even eighteen hundred years later, in the present time, the transistor will have been discovered, let alone mass produced.
I've gone through any number of lectures, around the theme as to why the West rules today (and the Chinese will be taking over tomorrow), and let's simplify it to geography and competition.
And if you give the Romans sufficient technology advances that there is no competition, it's unlikely technological development or human, will end up in it's current state in the twenty first century.
It's not mine, and it's more of an intellectual exercise.
However, a number of factors have happened to fall in place as I did consider it.
If the idea is to kickstart the Industrial Revolution early, and leave the Roman Empire in tact until contact with the First Imperium, I rather doubt that even eighteen hundred years later, in the present time, the transistor will have been discovered, let alone mass produced.
I've gone through any number of lectures, around the theme as to why the West rules today (and the Chinese will be taking over tomorrow), and let's simplify it to geography and competition.
And if you give the Romans sufficient technology advances that there is no competition, it's unlikely technological development or human, will end up in it's current state in the twenty first century.
The tech levels 1 through 4 are pretty much the same from the farming perspective:
TECHNOLOGICAL LEVELS
Digit Description
1 = Bronze Age to Middle Ages
2 = circa 1400 to 1700
3 = circa 1700 to 1860
4 = circa 1860 to 1900
As far as the farmer was concerned farming was back breaking labor with the assistance of farm animals, most of the technological improvements were in the field of warfare. If you were raising chickens of planting crops, it didn't make much difference to you whether the soldiers of the time were swinging swords, firing muskets, rifles, or Gatling Guns, farming was pretty much the same and unmechanized, people mostly traveled on foot or on a horse, that didn't change much until tech level 5 was reached. In tech level 4 you had steam trains, but you still had to walk to the station to get on one, the invention of the telegraph and telephone did allow for faster communication, but you still had to stand behind you plow horse to till the fields. Farming was pretty safe up until 1900, and even at tech level 5 plenty of people still farmed the old fashioned way, horses and cars coexisted on the roads for a few decades in the early 20th century, at tech level 6 people started living in suburbs and started making use of the automobile to commute to work, better transportation allowed for the creation of larger more automated farms and thus fewer farmers. I think by the time tech level 6 is reached you start having upheavals, and the Romand did love road building.
I think you can have advancement in tech levels up to 5 without major disruptions in the way people earn a living, which was that of yeoman farming, the single family farm where people grow their own food, and use their surpluses in crop production to trade for stuff they cannot make themselves. In tech levels 1 through 4 the Roman peasant is going to be growing his own food, riding on a horse or walking on his own two feet, not much changes for him unless he is going to be doing military service.
The Roman's have it all written down for them on sheets of paper, all they have to do is be good students and learn new stuff just as we did when we went to school. Most Roman's were not mentally disabled, they were just as capable of learning new things as we are. The main difference is the Roman's were save the chore of conducting experiments to find out what the natural laws were, all that work was already done for them and translated into latin so they could understand it, probably a lot of borrowed words would have to be added to their lexicon, so latin would evolve into neo-Latin to deal with all these modern things, ideas, and concepts. The Roman's would learn all the modern theory in the first 20 years it might not be of any practical to know Einsteinian equations like E=mc^2 but they would learn this stuff until they develop the actual engineering know how to actually make use of it. Roman philosophers would know about quarks, and leptons even though they couldn't build particle accelerators to discover those things for themselves because it would all be written down for them without them having to do the experiments to discover these things for themselves.
I think the Roman's would want to acquire the knowledge on how to build an atomic bomb, being the warlike culture that they are, they would have it written down on pieces of paper how to build an atomic bomb and what technological advances would be required to build such a thing, and they would learn this road map to the future in the first 20 years, they would know what a car was, even if they couldn't build one, though knowing that one could exist would motivate them to acquire the necessary technology to build one, they would also know what social disruptions such technology would bring and would be forewarned and forewarned to deal with it and plans could then be drawn to move people from the countryside to the cities, and to widen the roads beforehand and add parking spaces for cars before they actually exist.
Roman's would be building 6 lane highways with exit ramps in interchanges in preparation for the automobile before they had any, so the transitions may be smoother than you think. The first 4 tech levels should take 80 years to accomplish, 1800 years compressed into 80, but over most of those 1800 years, not much was happening technologically, so that is not saying much.
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My simple thesis is I just don't know how Roman the society will be in the end, how well the classic Roman society can work in a technological age.
I'm neither a sociologist or anthropologist, but I just think the impact of the, especially hastened, technological expansion, will be extremely disruptive to the status quo and whatever may be left may not be very Roman at all.
Mind, it's certainly fair to assume that the Romans win, that any disruption that occurs, the Romans prevail. Upstart revolutions, break away colonies, etc. But that doesn't mean they won't have any impact.
There's a great quote from the "Last of the Mohicans" movie where the Officer comes in to a council where the general is negotiating the terms of service with the local, American militia.
The Officer was pretty much appalled and say, paraphrased, "I think English policy was to make the world England."
And the General quipped about the difficulties of doing that there in the colonies.
I believe the first four tech levels after 0 are agrarian, that is most people make a living by operating farms, this doesn't change Roman society very much, slavery operates all the way to the beginning of the 20th century. The internal combustion engine makes horses obsolete and electrification, and mechanization changes things drastically, just like it did in our timeline. Tech levels 5, 6, and 7 cover the 20th century and it takes the Roman's 60 years to plow through those. At tech level 8 the Roman's colonize the Solar System, at tech level 9 the Jump Drive is invented and the Roman's begin to colonize the stars. Since the tech level 8+ technologies are fictional we can't really say much about development time of those.
