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US Army rifles going semi-auto now?

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I never said I was an expert. I did imply that I was a professional. I count two of mine relevant: the military and law. http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Gallery/index.php?n=1599
I have qualified and been admitted to both.

I do not know whether you would consider Louise Arbour, chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia to be an expert. Since he's likely a lawyer, I'll call him a professional. I think even in Belguim you have to pass an exam, or something. In conducting an inquiry as to whether DU munitions violated any treaty, his committee concluded, "There is no specific treaty ban on the use of DU projectiles. There is a developing scientific debate and concern expressed regarding the impact of the use of such projectiles and it is possible that, in future, there will be a consensus view in international legal circles that use of such projectiles violate general principles of the law applicable to use of weapons in armed conflict. No such consensus exists at present." Quoted in Joe Sills et al Environmental Crimes in Military Actions and the International Criminal Court (ICC)-United Nations Perspectives of American Council for the UN University, April 2002. Page 28. http://web.archive.org/web/20041015...i.army.mil/internet/env-crime-icc-printer.pdf

You opine that "too many argue fine points of exception and legalism." I'll take your expert opinion on the matter, but share my professional opinion that in construing the law legal analysis is useful.



As I tell my students "One word will get you in the law." Here, that word is "undue." One of the three principles of the law of war is "necessity."DU penetrators (at least those used by the US, and any others that I, an inexpert professional, am aware of) are not designed as anti-personnel weapons. The suffering one undergoes as a result of unintended exposure to uranium oxide fragments is considerably less than getting naped. It is "undue" if it serves no military utility. Glass bullets (in addition to being really problematic) would serve no purpose over FMJ; they are the classic example given of an illicit munition.
As yet, it's apparently untested in the Hague. Hence "probable", not known, either way.

There have been arguments that use of AP weapons (not just DU) on infantry is going to cause undue suffering, due to overpenetration and insufficient wounding effect. (In other words, shooting grunts with AP means having to wound them twice or more to stop them, rather than shooting them once with FMJ's.) Likewise, soft projectiles are disallowed for military use because they fragment, making treatment harder.

The toxicity (both chemically and radioactively) of DU is part of its appeal to some users; it's the primary basis for arguments against its use as undue suffering.

DU is literally a poisoned round.
 
Any other "expertise" claimed is untestable and not authoritative, and is an action to the detriment of the boards; it has no place in on-board arguments unless asked for.
Posting a copy of a Law Degree, does seem to me like reasonable* proof of authority to render a 'professional' opinion on legal issues.
That opinion could still be wrong, but it seems reasonable to regard it as a 'professional opinion'.

Would resorting to professional opinion be a potential violation of rule 6?

I ask because there are many people on this board, including me, who have professional credentials in some field. [I am a Registered Architect in the states of Florida and Tennessee, with 30 years experience in Land Planning, plus a few related certifications like ACOE Wetland Delineation and NRCS Soil Identification.] While I don't think that I have ever been called upon to issue a 'Professional Opinion' on an issue here, it would be good to know the board policy.

As a professional at something, I want to know if there is a line inappropriate to cross.
As a moderator, I want to know if there is a line that might trigger a warning (or not).

I agree with the concern about the 'testability' of such a claim and grant that anyone issuing an 'appeal to professional authority' should be prepared to give a response when that authority is challenged ('challenged' in the sense that if you drive a car, then you are expected to produce a driver's license rather than a police officer just accepting your word that you have one).


PS. I posted this question here, rather than the hidden Starport Administration, so that the answer could be made public, since it potentially effects the whole community.


* [I like that word in my 'Architecture' professional practice.]
 
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The toxicity (both chemically and radioactively) of DU is part of its appeal to some users; it's the primary basis for arguments against its use as undue suffering.

DU is literally a poisoned round.
Just to play devil's advocate, aren't Lead and Copper also toxic?

Trying to sell anything with the word 'radioactive' associated with it seems like an uphill battle to acceptability in a court of world opinion, at least IMO.
 
...Any other "expertise" claimed is untestable and not authoritative, and is an action to the detriment of the boards; it has no place in on-board arguments unless asked for.

I'd like some clarification on the point. On a personal basis, I don't take a claim of expertise as an absolute even when I know it to be true - one must always check the facts because even experts can make mistakes. (I've worked with MD's; I've learned not to trust them as far as I can throw them.) However, neither do I make the assumption that my fellow posters may be engaged in deception: if they claim expertise and present convincing verifiable evidence supporting a given argument, more power to them - and if they claim expertise and do not present convincing evidence, then I wonder if maybe a bit of bias is coloring their expertise. (We are all of us subject to unconscious bias from time to time.) Near as I can tell, the others treat expertise similarly. So, I'm not seeing this "action to the detriment of the boards" idea behind a claim of expertise.

On a more general note, I've seen most of us make the claim at one point or another, and I find nothing in forum rules against claiming expertise. Is there some element of board rules that I am not understanding correctly, and - having myself been guilty of mentioning expertise in the past and being naturally concerned about inadvertently breaking some rule in future - why has it not been invoked in the past?

On a game-related note: I am wondering if there are canon sources that speak to such issues. International law is well and good, but history shows that those who feel the need to ignore it and have the power to do so, tend to do so. I don't know to what extent international law can be used as a basis for judging things Traveller, where the Imperium has the power to apply its laws absolutely and without exception to its member systems, but where the goings between great empires have no judge at all to oversee them.
 
As yet, it's apparently untested in the Hague. Hence "probable", not known, either way.
I will defer to your opinion over the learned doctor of the law.

There have been arguments that use of AP weapons (not just DU) on infantry is going to cause undue suffering, due to overpenetration and insufficient wounding effect.
Over-penetration. Choice! Over-penetration is cruel in the same way that wounding an enemy rather than killing him is cruel. Over-wounding is cruel, under-wounding is cruel, and wounding with Momma Bear round for a given mix of range, cover, and angle is just about as cruel. People will argue all kinds of nonsense. You wound him, anywhere, anyway, then that's a day's work. For a given shot, there's always something else one might want, but for the most part you'll take anything you can get. There have been "under-woundings" with the 5.56mm since its inception, despite its occasional terminal ballistic tendency to tumble. A certainly, some have argued that was a problem; the basic calculus of military expedience [termed "military necessity" with the law of land warfare]was inescapable, however: a soldier's personal fighting load of 210 5.56mm rounds in magazines weighed half as much as it would in 7.62mm NATO. That makes it lawful. If we field a weapon that is useful for a military purpose in all its characteristics, and is not intended in any aspect of its design to produce suffering, then that weapon is lawful.

(In other words, shooting grunts with AP means having to wound them twice or more to stop them, rather than shooting them once with FMJ's.)
Or, at the right range, shooting them with AP means wounding, and with FMJ means a kick in the chest. When we take the law of war and start trying to link it to such a fine, and rather backward, parsing of terminal ballistics, then we do not serve the soldier, who is (in the particulars of forbidden weapons) its intended beneficiary. The current U.S. 5.56mm round is tungsten-cored rather than lead cored. Now while there was a problem with lead contamination on downrange in training areas, another purpose of the switch was clearly to do better downrange against the slow proliferation of body armor. An old school, lead-cored 5.56mm will drill a short vest at 25m from the muzzle, but if you've looked at how fast the round loses energy in flight, then being able to drill a vest (or a truck door and chest rack) at 500m with a lead-cored FMJ round.


Likewise, soft projectiles are disallowed for military use because they fragment, making treatment harder. .
Expanding or fragmenting small arms rounds (less than 20mm) are banned by the Hague Convention of 1899, IIRC. An expanding small arms round can be harder (being a lead antimony alloy, for instance) than a FMJ round. Lead-cored FMJ rounds are softer than AP rounds (which in military small arms usually have a full metal jacket, as well), but that makes then no more questionable under the law of war.

The toxicity (both chemically and radioactively) of DU is part of its appeal to some users;.
For anti-armor munitions? I would like to know who?? I am sure that making small arms projectiles from DU is possible, and likely done by the same type of folks who use punji stakes, booby-trapped toys, carcass-implanted IED's, and chemical weapons for crowd control. I am talking about the uses of the U.S. and its Western allies have for DU, at least those that are open source.

it's the primary basis for arguments against its use as undue suffering. DU is literally a poisoned round.
No! A poisoned round is a round to which one has added poison. Like many other munitions its characteristics make it toxic, but this toxicity is incidental to its characteristics of producing the best armor-piercing round, let alone pyrophoric armor-piercing anti-armor rounds on God's green earth. If you argue to take that away from our soldiers because of a basic misapprehension of how the laws of war actually operate [as opposed to how some wish they operated], then you can expect no indulgence from this quarter.

I have been in the U.S. Army for 29 years, 2 months, and 4 days, and though I am no expert, it has been my personal observation that as an institution it has more scrupulous in trying to balance its operational requirements and moral and ethical responsibilities. The militaries that do not use DU are those who, for the most part, don't have access to it, and they are the ones who complain about it. The civilians, they can go talk to their rooting congressman about making another stupid rule for our soldiers to have to follow.
 
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Just a follow up.
[m;]The closing of the topic has been reviewed at the request of a user. [/m;]

While there was a lot of interesting discussion, from the first mention of using .50 cal weapons against personnel, the topic had entered an inevitable path to a political discussion. I would actually argue that perhaps the thread should have been closed sooner, and another moderator may have been willing to allow the topic to continue a little further. The tendency of the topic to evoke political commentary cannot be denied and, if reopened, further political discussion seems unavoidable.

[m;]As political discussions are a violation of the rules of COTI, the topic will remain closed.[/m;]

Thank You
 
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