Vector Movement Made Simple

[flykiller]

But, you set the SDB too close to the WS.

(laugh) my thought had been to make it easier for the sdb to round the warship. but when the weapons' range on the warship is depicted the problem for the sdb becomes obvious, and whether close or far I'm not sure it can meet its objective without being destroyed.

anyone else care to give this a try? I have a graf spee scenario in mind - a crippled solomani cruiser limited to 1G must try to make it to the 100d limit of the world on which it has taken refuge and jump to escape. meanwhile an imperial cruiser of M6 must try and stop it, without entering the world's 100d limit or firing through that limit.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by flykiller:
but when the weapons' range on the warship is depicted the problem for the sdb becomes obvious, and whether close or far I'm not sure it can meet its objective without being destroyed.

You don't think my plan (above) would have worked?

There are a lot of "if's", I'll grant you.

For my plan to work, the WS needed to continue tracking with the SDB and gaining speed. It really didn't matter if the SS angled toward the WS because, at those speeds, the SS would have been left in the dust.

So, as long as (A) the WS didn't back off and stayed with the SDB, and (B) sufficient time was put into accelerating in order to give the SDB a maneuver advantage, then I do believe I could have swung that puppy around and been on my way to the two shots to destroy the SS while the WS was trailing me.




Maybe another scenario you might think of running is the exact same one, but with a second SDB entering the fray later in the combat.

That might be interesting. If the WS knows about the incoming second SDB, it would never venture far from the SS. So, the SDB would have to come up with a screening strategy in order to get the SS without taking a pyrrhic victory.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by flykiller:
but when the weapons' range on the warship is depicted the problem for the sdb becomes obvious, and whether close or far I'm not sure it can meet its objective without being destroyed.

You don't think my plan (above) would have worked?

There are a lot of "if's", I'll grant you.

For my plan to work, the WS needed to continue tracking with the SDB and gaining speed. It really didn't matter if the SS angled toward the WS because, at those speeds, the SS would have been left in the dust.

So, as long as (A) the WS didn't back off and stayed with the SDB, and (B) sufficient time was put into accelerating in order to give the SDB a maneuver advantage, then I do believe I could have swung that puppy around and been on my way to the two shots to destroy the SS while the WS was trailing me.




Maybe another scenario you might think of running is the exact same one, but with a second SDB entering the fray later in the combat.

That might be interesting. If the WS knows about the incoming second SDB, it would never venture far from the SS. So, the SDB would have to come up with a screening strategy in order to get the SS without taking a pyrrhic victory.

 

[flykiller]

So...I just might have pulled it off, but it would have taken many, many more rounds than we've already played.

well one of the victory conditions is a 40 turn limit, and it doesn't seem likely to be met. we can continue on if you like, no reason we can't. it's obvious what the sdb must do, it's just not clear it can do it.

The worst thing that could have happened for the SDB captain would have been for the WS to fall back to the SS, with the SS within its firing range. That way, the SDB would be exposed if it ever got off a shot.

actually, no. since the supply ship is destroyed with only 2 hits, while the sdb gets 4 hits, simply falling back and trading shot for shot loses for the warship/supply ship. the warship has to keep the sdb off of the supply ship entirely.

(probably off the south side of the map)

one of the nice things about doing it this way is that even if a ship leaves the playing space it can still be tracked with full accuracy on the log.

 

[flykiller]

So...I just might have pulled it off, but it would have taken many, many more rounds than we've already played.

well one of the victory conditions is a 40 turn limit, and it doesn't seem likely to be met. we can continue on if you like, no reason we can't. it's obvious what the sdb must do, it's just not clear it can do it.

The worst thing that could have happened for the SDB captain would have been for the WS to fall back to the SS, with the SS within its firing range. That way, the SDB would be exposed if it ever got off a shot.

actually, no. since the supply ship is destroyed with only 2 hits, while the sdb gets 4 hits, simply falling back and trading shot for shot loses for the warship/supply ship. the warship has to keep the sdb off of the supply ship entirely.

(probably off the south side of the map)

one of the nice things about doing it this way is that even if a ship leaves the playing space it can still be tracked with full accuracy on the log.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flykiller:
I'm equally convinced that range bands alone could not have dealt with this engagement properly.

If you're talking about one dimensional range bands taken on a sheet of notebook paper, you may be right.

But, range bands on a grid or a hex board would have handled this the exact same way. (Mayday, or LBB 2 space combat with range bands on a hex grid would have had the same outcome given the same moves).</font>[/QUOTE]BTW, this scenario, and my "plan" could have easily been played out using range bands and the hex tiles from Mayday. See, the SDB and the WS distance would be "mapped" (it's the distance between the SDB and the WS that matters), and the distance to the SS would have been kept track of but not mapped.

I'd probably keep track of the SS with regard to the WS's position on paper, just figuring hexes. I'd have a graphic represenation of the SDB and the WS using counters and the Mayday hex tiles.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flykiller:
I'm equally convinced that range bands alone could not have dealt with this engagement properly.

If you're talking about one dimensional range bands taken on a sheet of notebook paper, you may be right.

But, range bands on a grid or a hex board would have handled this the exact same way. (Mayday, or LBB 2 space combat with range bands on a hex grid would have had the same outcome given the same moves).</font>[/QUOTE]BTW, this scenario, and my "plan" could have easily been played out using range bands and the hex tiles from Mayday. See, the SDB and the WS distance would be "mapped" (it's the distance between the SDB and the WS that matters), and the distance to the SS would have been kept track of but not mapped.

I'd probably keep track of the SS with regard to the WS's position on paper, just figuring hexes. I'd have a graphic represenation of the SDB and the WS using counters and the Mayday hex tiles.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by flykiller:
well one of the victory conditions is a 40 turn limit, and it doesn't seem likely to be met.

Oh, didn't read that. Well, the SDB was screwed from the beginning, then .

If you take off the 40 turn limit, it's got a shot.

we can continue on if you like, no reason we can't. it's obvious what the sdb must do, it's just not clear it can do it.

But, you know my plan now, and if the WS moves off or ceases to track (which you may have done had we continued, once the WS was some distance from the SS), I would have had to come up with something new.

I was reading you like you felt the scenario was over, which is why I posted my captain's plans.

If you want to continue it, though, just to see if the SDB can pull it off, why don't you just extend the scenario for a time and see if the SDB would have been successful. You've got my plan above. Make sure to keep the SDB out of the firing arc of the WS, and on the turn, when the SDB makes for the SS, allow only one turn of fire at the SDB if the SDB has to go through the WS's firing arc.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by flykiller:
well one of the victory conditions is a 40 turn limit, and it doesn't seem likely to be met.

Oh, didn't read that. Well, the SDB was screwed from the beginning, then .

If you take off the 40 turn limit, it's got a shot.

we can continue on if you like, no reason we can't. it's obvious what the sdb must do, it's just not clear it can do it.

But, you know my plan now, and if the WS moves off or ceases to track (which you may have done had we continued, once the WS was some distance from the SS), I would have had to come up with something new.

I was reading you like you felt the scenario was over, which is why I posted my captain's plans.

If you want to continue it, though, just to see if the SDB can pull it off, why don't you just extend the scenario for a time and see if the SDB would have been successful. You've got my plan above. Make sure to keep the SDB out of the firing arc of the WS, and on the turn, when the SDB makes for the SS, allow only one turn of fire at the SDB if the SDB has to go through the WS's firing arc.

 

[flykiller]

You don't think my plan (above) would have worked?

as you've described it, no, not at all. but if you were to try it I think you'd see very quickly what _would_ work, and then I think the warship/supply ship would lose.

... a second SDB entering the fray later in the combat.

there's no way the warship could defend against 2 sdb's under the rules specified earlier. they'd win.

 

[flykiller]

You don't think my plan (above) would have worked?

as you've described it, no, not at all. but if you were to try it I think you'd see very quickly what _would_ work, and then I think the warship/supply ship would lose.

... a second SDB entering the fray later in the combat.

there's no way the warship could defend against 2 sdb's under the rules specified earlier. they'd win.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You don't think my plan (above) would have worked?

as you've described it, no, not at all. </font>[/QUOTE]Play it out, then.

Go several rounds. Have the WS track with the SDB. Never allow the SDB to come within firing range of the WS.

Then, after several rounds, with velocity very high, have the SDB begin a bank, careful not to get into the WS's firing range, eventually bee-lining back to the SS.

When the SDB banks, the WS will bank with it, but the SDB will do it faster, complete the course change after several rounds, and beat the WS back to the SS.

It will probably take more than 40 game rounds. "Speed" is the issue.

Give it a try on your thingy (if its easy to do). Let's see the plot. Play the whole thing out. I'll correct you if you make a move I haven't specified here.

I do think it will work.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You don't think my plan (above) would have worked?

as you've described it, no, not at all. </font>[/QUOTE]Play it out, then.

Go several rounds. Have the WS track with the SDB. Never allow the SDB to come within firing range of the WS.

Then, after several rounds, with velocity very high, have the SDB begin a bank, careful not to get into the WS's firing range, eventually bee-lining back to the SS.

When the SDB banks, the WS will bank with it, but the SDB will do it faster, complete the course change after several rounds, and beat the WS back to the SS.

It will probably take more than 40 game rounds. "Speed" is the issue.

Give it a try on your thingy (if its easy to do). Let's see the plot. Play the whole thing out. I'll correct you if you make a move I haven't specified here.

I do think it will work.

 

[flykiller]

If you take off the 40 turn limit, it's got a shot.

true, but 40 turns is 11 hours, and while this was an abstract exercise time should eventually be a prameter.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />we can continue on if you like, no reason we can't. it's obvious what the sdb must do, it's just not clear it can do it.

But, you know my plan now.</font>[/QUOTE]well yes, I knew it before we started. and yes, the warship would have broken off pursuit in just a few more turns, since it cannot outpace the sdb over a large distance and since its only goal is to protect the supply ship, not destroy the sdb.

If you want to continue it, though, just to see if the SDB can pull it off, why don't you just extend the scenario for a time and see if the SDB would have been successful.

go ahead and post some vector changes. I really shouldn't be playing the scenario for you (grin).

 

[flykiller]

If you take off the 40 turn limit, it's got a shot.

true, but 40 turns is 11 hours, and while this was an abstract exercise time should eventually be a prameter.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />we can continue on if you like, no reason we can't. it's obvious what the sdb must do, it's just not clear it can do it.

But, you know my plan now.</font>[/QUOTE]well yes, I knew it before we started. and yes, the warship would have broken off pursuit in just a few more turns, since it cannot outpace the sdb over a large distance and since its only goal is to protect the supply ship, not destroy the sdb.

If you want to continue it, though, just to see if the SDB can pull it off, why don't you just extend the scenario for a time and see if the SDB would have been successful.

go ahead and post some vector changes. I really shouldn't be playing the scenario for you (grin).

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by flykiller:
and yes, the warship would have broken off pursuit in just a few more turns, since it cannot outpace the sdb over a large distance and since its only goal is to protect the supply ship, not destroy the sdb.

I had a contingency plan for that, and I fear if you break off now, you'll put the SDB in a better advantage. I'd be able to cut across your bow, outside of the WS weapon range, as you slowed.

We'd play cat-n-mouse a bit, and I'd have to react to your moves, and watch how you reacted to my moves, but the net result would be the SDB between the WS and the SS. Which is dangerous for the WS.

Time's the issue, though. All that maneuvering, and the low velocity that both WS and SDB are right now....the 40 round time limit might expire.

But, that would have been my contingency plan.

I'll be watching if anyone takes you up on your Graff Spree scenario.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by flykiller:
and yes, the warship would have broken off pursuit in just a few more turns, since it cannot outpace the sdb over a large distance and since its only goal is to protect the supply ship, not destroy the sdb.

I had a contingency plan for that, and I fear if you break off now, you'll put the SDB in a better advantage. I'd be able to cut across your bow, outside of the WS weapon range, as you slowed.

We'd play cat-n-mouse a bit, and I'd have to react to your moves, and watch how you reacted to my moves, but the net result would be the SDB between the WS and the SS. Which is dangerous for the WS.

Time's the issue, though. All that maneuvering, and the low velocity that both WS and SDB are right now....the 40 round time limit might expire.

But, that would have been my contingency plan.

I'll be watching if anyone takes you up on your Graff Spree scenario.