Vector Movement Made Simple

[flykiller]

I've simply continued the ships' choices of acceleration, their positions are now as listed for turn 008. as you can see the distance between the sdb and the warship is dropping rapidly, so a new course is up to you.

Much like what you're doing here.

well vector movement is vector movement and I wouldn't expect ways of doing it to be very different, but it seems to me the major problem is one of scale. using pixel movement on a bitmap 1) allows ready visualization of a very large gamespace at a glance, 2) easy gaming over the net, as seen here, and 3) double-blind gaming over the net, allowing sensor rules to play a more realistic role in the game process.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by flykiller:
well vector movement is vector movement and I wouldn't expect ways of doing it to be very different, but it seems to me the major problem is one of scale. using pixel movement on a bitmap 1) allows ready visualization of a very large gamespace at a glance, 2) easy gaming over the net, as seen here, and 3) double-blind gaming over the net, allowing sensor rules to play a more realistic role in the game process.

Mayday comes with a "broken" map. It's several hex sheets, a bit smaller than a piece of notebook paper, so that you can constantly move the map--pick of a piece from the "rear" and place it in the "front".

It's the distance between the ships that matter.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by flykiller:
well vector movement is vector movement and I wouldn't expect ways of doing it to be very different, but it seems to me the major problem is one of scale. using pixel movement on a bitmap 1) allows ready visualization of a very large gamespace at a glance, 2) easy gaming over the net, as seen here, and 3) double-blind gaming over the net, allowing sensor rules to play a more realistic role in the game process.

Mayday comes with a "broken" map. It's several hex sheets, a bit smaller than a piece of notebook paper, so that you can constantly move the map--pick of a piece from the "rear" and place it in the "front".

It's the distance between the ships that matter.

 

[flykiller]

Mayday comes with a "broken" map.

how large a gamespace can it depict?

 

[flykiller]

Mayday comes with a "broken" map.

how large a gamespace can it depict?

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Mayday comes with a "broken" map.

how large a gamespace can it depict? </font>[/QUOTE]I'd have to pull it out to count the map tiles. But, as long as the distance between two vessles doesn't get super wide (it can easily handle 100,000 km), the "game space" is infinite because you'll just keep taking a map tile from one end and placing it where you need it.

BTW, Mayday uses a bigger hex size than I do. I use Book 2 sizes of 1 hex = 10,000 km. Mayday uses a bigger hex and longer turn--I don't recall, but I think it's 30,000 km hexes.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Mayday comes with a "broken" map.

how large a gamespace can it depict? </font>[/QUOTE]I'd have to pull it out to count the map tiles. But, as long as the distance between two vessles doesn't get super wide (it can easily handle 100,000 km), the "game space" is infinite because you'll just keep taking a map tile from one end and placing it where you need it.

BTW, Mayday uses a bigger hex size than I do. I use Book 2 sizes of 1 hex = 10,000 km. Mayday uses a bigger hex and longer turn--I don't recall, but I think it's 30,000 km hexes.

 

[flykiller]

(it can easily handle 100,000 km)

a bitmap graphic displayable on this board will accomodate the entire 100d limit of an earth-sized world, with any number of ships moving in any number of directions at any vector one cares to take the time to depict.

not against mayday, sounds great if there are only a few ships involved over a limited space (like what happens in an rpg), I was just looking for something a little more extensive, capable of handling actual combat scenarios above the one-on-one level without requiring a gamespace the size of a football field.

care to continue with the scenario?

and if anyone else wants to give it a go, I have other scenarios as well. in addition we could start implementing various weapons rules, testing them to see how they work out, etc.

really no limit here to what could be developed - assuming anyone cares to do it.

 

[flykiller]

(it can easily handle 100,000 km)

a bitmap graphic displayable on this board will accomodate the entire 100d limit of an earth-sized world, with any number of ships moving in any number of directions at any vector one cares to take the time to depict.

not against mayday, sounds great if there are only a few ships involved over a limited space (like what happens in an rpg), I was just looking for something a little more extensive, capable of handling actual combat scenarios above the one-on-one level without requiring a gamespace the size of a football field.

care to continue with the scenario?

and if anyone else wants to give it a go, I have other scenarios as well. in addition we could start implementing various weapons rules, testing them to see how they work out, etc.

really no limit here to what could be developed - assuming anyone cares to do it.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by flykiller:

care to continue with the scenario?

I made my move. I was waiting on you.

My move was: Connect my present position with my last position, make a straight line, and continue along that vector at maxiumum thrust.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by flykiller:

care to continue with the scenario?

I made my move. I was waiting on you.

My move was: Connect my present position with my last position, make a straight line, and continue along that vector at maxiumum thrust.

 

[flykiller]

I made my move. I was waiting on you.

very well, I'll extend it out to turn 011.

 

[flykiller]

I made my move. I was waiting on you.

very well, I'll extend it out to turn 011.

 

[flykiller]

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">SDB - agility 6, weapons range 3LS, hits 4
WARSHIP - agility 4, weapons range 3LS, hits 10
SUPPLY SHIP - agility 1, hits 2


SDB WARSHIP SUPPLY SHIP
turn x y xv yv xd yd wars supp x y xv yv xd yd sdb supp x y xv yv xd yd sdb wars
---- ----------------------------------- ----------------------------------- -----------------------------------
001 120 300 000 000 -04 04 4.0 20.0 240 300 000 000 04 00 4.0 16.0 720 300 000 000 -01 00 20.0 16.0
002 118 302 -004 004 05 03 4.1 20.1 242 300 004 000 02 03 4.1 15.9 720 300 -001 000 -01 00 20.1 15.9
003 116 307 001 007 05 03 4.4 20.1 247 301 006 003 02 03 4.4 15.7 719 300 -002 000 -01 00 20.1 15.7
004 119 315 006 010 05 03 4.5 19.9 254 305 008 006 02 03 4.5 15.4 717 300 -003 000 -01 00 19.9 15.4
005 127 326 011 013 05 03 4.6 19.6 263 312 010 009 02 03 4.6 15.0 714 300 -004 000 -01 00 19.6 15.0
006 140 340 016 016 05 03 4.5 19.0 274 322 012 012 02 03 4.5 14.6 710 300 -005 000 -01 00 19.0 14.6
007 158 357 021 019 05 03 4.4 18.3 287 335 014 015 02 03 4.4 14.0 705 300 -006 000 -01 00 18.3 14.0
008 181 377 026 022 -05 03 4.1 17.5 302 351 016 018 02 03 4.1 13.3 699 300 -007 000 -01 00 17.5 13.3
009 205 400 021 025 03 05 3.9 16.6 319 370 018 021 02 03 3.9 12.7 692 300 -008 000 -01 00 16.6 12.7
010 227 427 024 030 03 05 3.9 15.8 338 392 020 024 02 03 3.9 11.9 684 300 -009 000 -01 00 15.8 11.9
011 252 459 027 035 -- -- 3.8 15.1 359 417 022 027 -- -- 3.8 11.2 675 300 -010 000 -- -- 15.1 11.2</pre>[/QUOTE]as you can see I've pulled back a bit on the sdb's x vector to straighten its course and stop its precipitous entry into the warship's 3LS weapons' range, and I've indicated that 3LS range with a green circle. adding that range makes the situtation visibly obvious - it will be some time before the sdb can track around the warship's weapons' range and pull over to the supply ship's original location - meanwhile however the supply ship will have laid on a considerable -x vector and will be well out of range of the sdb's weapons.

I'm not at all convinced the sdb can reach the supply ship in the 29 remaining turns without itself being destroyed. the key reason seems to be that the M6 sdb does not seem to be able to outmaneuver the combined vectors of the M4 warship and the M1 supply ship. also, the first move, when the sdb laid on -x vector while the warship laid on x vector, didn't help.

I'm equally convinced that range bands alone could not have dealt with this engagement properly. both combat vessels now have fairly large lateral vectors relative to the point of interest - the supply ship, which by the way is now contributing its own lateral vector - while during the last few turns maintaining a fairly steady distance between themselves. full vectoring on a bitmap graphic seems a more accurate way of depicting this action.

 

[flykiller]

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">SDB - agility 6, weapons range 3LS, hits 4
WARSHIP - agility 4, weapons range 3LS, hits 10
SUPPLY SHIP - agility 1, hits 2


SDB WARSHIP SUPPLY SHIP
turn x y xv yv xd yd wars supp x y xv yv xd yd sdb supp x y xv yv xd yd sdb wars
---- ----------------------------------- ----------------------------------- -----------------------------------
001 120 300 000 000 -04 04 4.0 20.0 240 300 000 000 04 00 4.0 16.0 720 300 000 000 -01 00 20.0 16.0
002 118 302 -004 004 05 03 4.1 20.1 242 300 004 000 02 03 4.1 15.9 720 300 -001 000 -01 00 20.1 15.9
003 116 307 001 007 05 03 4.4 20.1 247 301 006 003 02 03 4.4 15.7 719 300 -002 000 -01 00 20.1 15.7
004 119 315 006 010 05 03 4.5 19.9 254 305 008 006 02 03 4.5 15.4 717 300 -003 000 -01 00 19.9 15.4
005 127 326 011 013 05 03 4.6 19.6 263 312 010 009 02 03 4.6 15.0 714 300 -004 000 -01 00 19.6 15.0
006 140 340 016 016 05 03 4.5 19.0 274 322 012 012 02 03 4.5 14.6 710 300 -005 000 -01 00 19.0 14.6
007 158 357 021 019 05 03 4.4 18.3 287 335 014 015 02 03 4.4 14.0 705 300 -006 000 -01 00 18.3 14.0
008 181 377 026 022 -05 03 4.1 17.5 302 351 016 018 02 03 4.1 13.3 699 300 -007 000 -01 00 17.5 13.3
009 205 400 021 025 03 05 3.9 16.6 319 370 018 021 02 03 3.9 12.7 692 300 -008 000 -01 00 16.6 12.7
010 227 427 024 030 03 05 3.9 15.8 338 392 020 024 02 03 3.9 11.9 684 300 -009 000 -01 00 15.8 11.9
011 252 459 027 035 -- -- 3.8 15.1 359 417 022 027 -- -- 3.8 11.2 675 300 -010 000 -- -- 15.1 11.2</pre>[/QUOTE]as you can see I've pulled back a bit on the sdb's x vector to straighten its course and stop its precipitous entry into the warship's 3LS weapons' range, and I've indicated that 3LS range with a green circle. adding that range makes the situtation visibly obvious - it will be some time before the sdb can track around the warship's weapons' range and pull over to the supply ship's original location - meanwhile however the supply ship will have laid on a considerable -x vector and will be well out of range of the sdb's weapons.

I'm not at all convinced the sdb can reach the supply ship in the 29 remaining turns without itself being destroyed. the key reason seems to be that the M6 sdb does not seem to be able to outmaneuver the combined vectors of the M4 warship and the M1 supply ship. also, the first move, when the sdb laid on -x vector while the warship laid on x vector, didn't help.

I'm equally convinced that range bands alone could not have dealt with this engagement properly. both combat vessels now have fairly large lateral vectors relative to the point of interest - the supply ship, which by the way is now contributing its own lateral vector - while during the last few turns maintaining a fairly steady distance between themselves. full vectoring on a bitmap graphic seems a more accurate way of depicting this action.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by flykiller:
also, the first move, when the sdb laid on -x vector while the warship laid on x vector, didn't help.

Calculated risk. Little lost there. I did that to see what the WS would do. I wanted to find out if it would follow me, block my path (as its doing), or just retreat closer to the SS.

I'm equally convinced that range bands alone could not have dealt with this engagement properly.

If you're talking about one dimensional range bands taken on a sheet of notebook paper, you may be right.

But, range bands on a grid or a hex board would have handled this the exact same way. (Mayday, or LBB 2 space combat with range bands on a hex grid would have had the same outcome given the same moves).

BTW, the scenario was a tough one for the SDB. If the WS was slower, the SDB could use it's greater maneuverability to round the WS and hit the SS.

But, you set the SDB too close to the WS. It was really an un-winnable scenario for the SDB. If the SDB began at a greater distance, it would have had a better shot. Getting too close to the WS, though, would have been curtains for the SDB.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by flykiller:
also, the first move, when the sdb laid on -x vector while the warship laid on x vector, didn't help.

Calculated risk. Little lost there. I did that to see what the WS would do. I wanted to find out if it would follow me, block my path (as its doing), or just retreat closer to the SS.

I'm equally convinced that range bands alone could not have dealt with this engagement properly.

If you're talking about one dimensional range bands taken on a sheet of notebook paper, you may be right.

But, range bands on a grid or a hex board would have handled this the exact same way. (Mayday, or LBB 2 space combat with range bands on a hex grid would have had the same outcome given the same moves).

BTW, the scenario was a tough one for the SDB. If the WS was slower, the SDB could use it's greater maneuverability to round the WS and hit the SS.

But, you set the SDB too close to the WS. It was really an un-winnable scenario for the SDB. If the SDB began at a greater distance, it would have had a better shot. Getting too close to the WS, though, would have been curtains for the SDB.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
It was really an un-winnable scenario for the SDB.

But...that doesn't mean I wouldn't have tried...

If we had continued the scenario, I did have a plan...

The worst thing that could have happened for the SDB captain would have been for the WS to fall back to the SS, with the SS within its firing range. That way, the SDB would be exposed if it ever got off a shot.

But, what you did was track with me.

This might not have been un-winnable. It depends on what you would have done on later rounds.

My plan was to increase speed, hoping the WS would track with me, as it was doing. I'd always stay just out of reach of the WS's guns.

The greater the velocity, the greater the advantage for the SDB. The M-6 drive gets an advantage at higher speeds over the M-4 drive.

So, once a sufficient speed was obtained (probably off the south side of the map), the SDB would have been able to effect a course change more readily than the M-4 warship.

If I had to, I was prepared to expose one turn to the WS's guns, taking a single hit.

But, I would have cut around and made for the SS.

There was only a chance this would work. And, for it to work, I needed the WS and the SS separated. Which is what I was doing...hoping you'd block me the way you did and chase me south.

Separation wide enough would have allowed me the time it would take to bank and turn northeast to engage the SS.

At that velocity, it would take several turns to bank, and the WS would catch on fast to what I was doing. But, but that time, it would be too late as the SDB would be able to bank so much faster (only possible at higher speeds).

So...I just might have pulled it off, but it would have taken many, many more rounds than we've already played.

Cat-n-mouse out in the ocean of space, eh?

S4

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Supplement Four:
It was really an un-winnable scenario for the SDB.

But...that doesn't mean I wouldn't have tried...

If we had continued the scenario, I did have a plan...

The worst thing that could have happened for the SDB captain would have been for the WS to fall back to the SS, with the SS within its firing range. That way, the SDB would be exposed if it ever got off a shot.

But, what you did was track with me.

This might not have been un-winnable. It depends on what you would have done on later rounds.

My plan was to increase speed, hoping the WS would track with me, as it was doing. I'd always stay just out of reach of the WS's guns.

The greater the velocity, the greater the advantage for the SDB. The M-6 drive gets an advantage at higher speeds over the M-4 drive.

So, once a sufficient speed was obtained (probably off the south side of the map), the SDB would have been able to effect a course change more readily than the M-4 warship.

If I had to, I was prepared to expose one turn to the WS's guns, taking a single hit.

But, I would have cut around and made for the SS.

There was only a chance this would work. And, for it to work, I needed the WS and the SS separated. Which is what I was doing...hoping you'd block me the way you did and chase me south.

Separation wide enough would have allowed me the time it would take to bank and turn northeast to engage the SS.

At that velocity, it would take several turns to bank, and the WS would catch on fast to what I was doing. But, but that time, it would be too late as the SDB would be able to bank so much faster (only possible at higher speeds).

So...I just might have pulled it off, but it would have taken many, many more rounds than we've already played.

Cat-n-mouse out in the ocean of space, eh?

S4

 

[flykiller]

But, you set the SDB too close to the WS.

(laugh) my thought had been to make it easier for the sdb to round the warship. but when the weapons' range on the warship is depicted the problem for the sdb becomes obvious, and whether close or far I'm not sure it can meet its objective without being destroyed.

anyone else care to give this a try? I have a graf spee scenario in mind - a crippled solomani cruiser limited to 1G must try to make it to the 100d limit of the world on which it has taken refuge and jump to escape. meanwhile an imperial cruiser of M6 must try and stop it, without entering the world's 100d limit or firing through that limit.