Vehicle and support weapon squad level integration
- Thread starter Golan2072
- Start date
First, the Rapid Assault Corvette supplies plenty of ortillery - depending on the final Platoon TOC, it would probably be around 400 dton for the very least, which means atleast 4 turrets (I think of one triple missile racks turret, two triple beam laser turrets and one triple sandcaster turret). In addition, nobody says that the G-Carriers won't carry additional man-portable TAC missiles in their cargo holds. And don't forget the underbarrel RAM grenade launchers on the Gauss Rifles (just a cosmetic change from shoot-through rifle grenades, to modernize the concept a little bit).
And can't one of each squad's fireteams include one PGMP-12? That is, one Plasma per squad, the rest of it's team supply it with cover Gauss fire and carry power-packs on their backs. The other fireteam will carry more RAM grenades and/or specialist equipment. This will get rid of an external support team and will enable to replace it with a support G-Carrier carrying a light MRL unit (with some reloads, it's about half a ton per full reload) and possibly including a small field medlab.
6 G-Carriers would be OK since 3 per Dropship would mean 24 dton per dropship, which means that I could even use off-the-shelf Modular Cutters for them and just retro-fit the LBB5 (Sigg Oddra-grafted to LBB2) armor and design my own Troop Carryer and 3-G-Carrier-Carrier modules.
And I use LBB4 chargen rules for Marine/Army characters, and it DOES have a Forward Observer a "6" on the Marine MOS skill table.
And I'll have an XO in addition to the Senior NCO.
And can't one of each squad's fireteams include one PGMP-12? That is, one Plasma per squad, the rest of it's team supply it with cover Gauss fire and carry power-packs on their backs. The other fireteam will carry more RAM grenades and/or specialist equipment. This will get rid of an external support team and will enable to replace it with a support G-Carrier carrying a light MRL unit (with some reloads, it's about half a ton per full reload) and possibly including a small field medlab.
6 G-Carriers would be OK since 3 per Dropship would mean 24 dton per dropship, which means that I could even use off-the-shelf Modular Cutters for them and just retro-fit the LBB5 (Sigg Oddra-grafted to LBB2) armor and design my own Troop Carryer and 3-G-Carrier-Carrier modules.
And I use LBB4 chargen rules for Marine/Army characters, and it DOES have a Forward Observer a "6" on the Marine MOS skill table.
And I'll have an XO in addition to the Senior NCO.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Dan,
Actually, part of the reason (I am sure) that Marines weren't FOs in LBB1 is because the US doctrine way back when was that Naval officers directed ship gunfire. Later, even I could call it in (as an AF guy on the ground with the grunts), but a Naval Gun Liaison Company was supposed to do all the fancy work.
Actually, part of the reason (I am sure) that Marines weren't FOs in LBB1 is because the US doctrine way back when was that Naval officers directed ship gunfire. Later, even I could call it in (as an AF guy on the ground with the grunts), but a Naval Gun Liaison Company was supposed to do all the fancy work.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
You're probably right Fritz88. Which is another way I looked at it. Navy FO calls ortillery, Army FO calls artillery.
Say, do you know was there a similar "services territorial" situation for calling in air-strikes? At any time? Just curious.
Say, do you know was there a similar "services territorial" situation for calling in air-strikes? At any time? Just curious.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Absolutely. The Army had FAC (Forward Air Controllers), generally assigned to HQ elements at Brigade Level and higher. These were Aif Force types OPCON to the Headquarters they supported. If you were in the Army and you wanted dedicated Air in your planning, it was Helos.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
A dedicated type to serve as an FO is a better choice. Also Sniper is a specialized job and usually a 2 man team that operates away from friendly units for extended periods of time. Not right for a Squad Leader.
You don't need sections for this. The Platoon leader rides down in one and the Platoon Sergeant in the other.
I still believe that each Fireteam should have a support weapon. (ie. PGMP-12)
Agreed.
Unneccesary step and calls to question, in a Mech Unit, where does he ride?
This Heavy Weapons Team might be better equipped to carry Light Tac Launchers and call them an Anti-Vehicle Team. If you are using CT it is no big deal but in MT, and T20 or under Striker, you have no real Anti-Armor capability in your independent Platoon. Even an Early TL-8 Main Battle Tank, (IE. The M-1) would cause this platoon no end of trouble.hey also have no ranged Air Defense Capability. A slight problem, your Platoon HQ doesn't fit in your assault boats if you are running 2 Sections of 2 Squads each.
The Rodger Young.
Ok, near-final organization (no section and that's it!):
Fireteam: 4 men: 3 Gauss Riflemen (with underbarrel grenade launchers and a few RAM grenades each for indirect/light anti-armor fire), one Plasma Gunner with a PGMP-12 (high damage, long range; serves as a light-medium anti-armor/anti-aircraft support weapon). One oif the Riflemen is the Fireteam Leader and is a Corporal; the two other Riflemen are Privates and the Plasma Gunner is a Lance Corporal.
Squad: 11 men: Two Infantry Fireteams, one Vehicle Team (G-Carrier Pilot and Gunner) and a Squad Leader. The G-Carrier Gunner and Pilot are Lance Corporals (maybe full Corporals?); the Squad Leader is a Lance Sergeant. The Squad rides a G-Carrier which is organic to it; the G-Carrier also carries additional supplies, munitions (such as light TAC missiles) and ammonition for the Squad.
Platoon: 48 men: 3 Infantry Squads, an Anti-Vehicle Team, a Dropship Team and a Command Post. The AV Team is composed of 7 men: two AV Specialists (who use man-portable Tac Missiles; Lance Corporals or Corporals), two Assistants/Forward Obs (carry reloads and possibly Laser Carbines for designation; Privates? Lance Corporals?), a G-Carrier pilot and Gunner (Lance Coreporals?) and a Team Leader (armed with a Gauss Rifle; Corporal or Lance Sergeant). The AV team's G-Carrier also gives light artillery support (light MRL). The Dropship Team consists of a Pilot (what rank should Marine pilots be?) and a Gunner (ditto). The Command Post consists of a Platoon Commander (2nd or 1st Lt), Platoon Senior NCO (Gunnery Sergeant), Comm/Intel Specialist (Sergeant), Platoon Medic (Sergeant or Lance Sergeant), Command G-Carrier Pilot and Command G-Carrier Gunner (Corporals or Lance Corporals). Total 5 G-Carriers.
Fireteam: 4 men: 3 Gauss Riflemen (with underbarrel grenade launchers and a few RAM grenades each for indirect/light anti-armor fire), one Plasma Gunner with a PGMP-12 (high damage, long range; serves as a light-medium anti-armor/anti-aircraft support weapon). One oif the Riflemen is the Fireteam Leader and is a Corporal; the two other Riflemen are Privates and the Plasma Gunner is a Lance Corporal.
Squad: 11 men: Two Infantry Fireteams, one Vehicle Team (G-Carrier Pilot and Gunner) and a Squad Leader. The G-Carrier Gunner and Pilot are Lance Corporals (maybe full Corporals?); the Squad Leader is a Lance Sergeant. The Squad rides a G-Carrier which is organic to it; the G-Carrier also carries additional supplies, munitions (such as light TAC missiles) and ammonition for the Squad.
Platoon: 48 men: 3 Infantry Squads, an Anti-Vehicle Team, a Dropship Team and a Command Post. The AV Team is composed of 7 men: two AV Specialists (who use man-portable Tac Missiles; Lance Corporals or Corporals), two Assistants/Forward Obs (carry reloads and possibly Laser Carbines for designation; Privates? Lance Corporals?), a G-Carrier pilot and Gunner (Lance Coreporals?) and a Team Leader (armed with a Gauss Rifle; Corporal or Lance Sergeant). The AV team's G-Carrier also gives light artillery support (light MRL). The Dropship Team consists of a Pilot (what rank should Marine pilots be?) and a Gunner (ditto). The Command Post consists of a Platoon Commander (2nd or 1st Lt), Platoon Senior NCO (Gunnery Sergeant), Comm/Intel Specialist (Sergeant), Platoon Medic (Sergeant or Lance Sergeant), Command G-Carrier Pilot and Command G-Carrier Gunner (Corporals or Lance Corporals). Total 5 G-Carriers.
You have a lot of leeway in assigning ranks to different vehicle crew slots. Historically, it seems related to how sophisticated a vehicle is and the availability of manpower. Early tanks were often commanded by lieutenants. Aircraft pilot is usually an officer slot but pilot-sergeant shows up from time to time. US helicopter crews can have warrant officers who are commissioned specialists and have no direct book 4 equivalent.
As a rule of thumb, "Driver" is usually a lower ranked position but if grav vehicle operation in your universe is a highly technical skill then pilot is appropriate (with a corresponding increase in rank).
Either way seems perfectly reasonable.
I'm a fan of attached naval FO's. It's not right, good, or better; it's more of a personal flavor choice. Goes back to Victorian naval landing parties; teams of sailors hauling guns behind the infantry columns. Gives the young lads/lasses something to do and it relieves the boredom of ship routine (especially when the shells start flying)
As a rule of thumb, "Driver" is usually a lower ranked position but if grav vehicle operation in your universe is a highly technical skill then pilot is appropriate (with a corresponding increase in rank).
In the US, the driver would probably be a private with the higher rank going to the gunner/vehicle commander. Either lance or full corporal seems right for the gunner.
FO's can go a lot of ways. If you have dedicated observers, they're probably going to be at least sergeants. In a unit of this size, the platoon commander, senior NCO and probably the squad leaders might all be able to call for and adjust artillery. The Privates with the laser carbines would be more like assistant FO's, designating targets called for by others and carrying the map box, commo, and designators.
Either way seems perfectly reasonable.
I'm a fan of attached naval FO's. It's not right, good, or better; it's more of a personal flavor choice. Goes back to Victorian naval landing parties; teams of sailors hauling guns behind the infantry columns. Gives the young lads/lasses something to do and it relieves the boredom of ship routine (especially when the shells start flying)
Most likely lieutenants, possibly a senior NCO gunner.
Another thing on a related topic: At what level do you think Artillery, Armor and/or Fighters should be integrated? The problem is that if I integrate all three into a Battalion along with 3 Infantry Companies, I get 6 units under the same HQ, which is a span-of-control problem. Ofcourse, I can make the fighter squadrons into Navy assets (after all they are launched from a Navy ship), but is there any other option?
The Oz
SOC-14 1K
I would think that Artillery, armor and fighters (if those are not one and the same) would be at Regimental level and just attached to Battalions for tactical control. As you say, Battalion commanders have enough to do just keeping their Line companies and heavy weapons organized; Regiment should keep track of the big stuff.
Battalion-level heavy weapons? Do you mean some of the heavier support weapons (such as Autocannons and their ilk), light vehicle-mounted weapons (VRFs and Plasma-As) or something else?
And are you saying that a Regiment should consist of 2 Line Battalions, an Armor Battalion and a Fighter unit (several Squadrons)?
And are you saying that a Regiment should consist of 2 Line Battalions, an Armor Battalion and a Fighter unit (several Squadrons)?
One way of integrating artillery is to provide each unit with its own assets and allow them to call on higher level assets as needed.
A low tech example could be as follows: an infantry platoon has a light mortar team in its weapons squad. The company has a mortar section in the weapons platoon that can be called upon by each line platoon. The battalion has a heavy mortar battery. Attached to the brigade is a tube artillery battery. Division has a full artillery battalion and a rocket battery and so on, each level adding assets that can be assigned as needed.
Armor can be integrated at any level you wish and would depend on the size of force you plan to regularly field. You could easily have an organic armor platoon as part of a marine company. Or, you could keep armor segregated at company or battalion level and attach armor units as needed for a given mission.
The more closely integrated they are, the better performance will be, but there may be situations where you wouldn't consider deploying heavy armor.
Fighters can be sticky. With grav technology, the distinctions between tank, gunship and fighter begin to blur. Depending on the design rules you use or make, TL12 is high enough for grav vehicles to compete with jet aircraft in performance.
If you're using the term fighter to mean small spacecraft, I think most people don't actually integrate them. They seem to remain in their own separate units whether under naval, marine or COACC control. The units are assigned as needed.
Integrate fighters at the lowest level that can provide their services and where they are going to be used on most (if not all) missions. If your fighters can be maintained, refueled and re-armed in the field by 2 men on a truck then battalion level might work. If you envision hangers, workshops and armouries, then some integrate at some higher level or keep them strictly naval.
And you might want to consider stretching or breaking modern organization schemes completely. You might consider integrating the marine detachment as one element in a naval unit: ships, marines and fighters integrated into a strike force under command of a Sky Marshall-type commander who could be either marine or naval. A lot depends on your universe-view.
edit: added to fighter integration option
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Artillery is generally integrated at Batalion level, at the lowest. Back in WWII there was some integration of Artillery assets at Company level, but in general those types of assets are well above that level. Besides with a dedicated Assault transport, it can provide the Artillery function.(The Corvette.)
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
That would depend on the type of Batalion. As an example a US Infantry Batalion had no tanks but had a light artillery battery, generally mortars, intergral, as did the Soviet Infantry Batalion. Armor Batalions in either didn't.
A US Cav Squadron, (Batalion equivalent) on the other hand, had all three components.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Dan,
Yup, Air Liaison Officers (ALO) are the doctrinal method for providing Air Force ground attack control to the US Army. The AF won't assign their aircraft TACON or OPCON to the Army, they provide ALOs to provide advice, coordination, and control for the Army. A lot of my fellow pilots didn't agree, but I thought it was a great job (allowing as how I was medically grounded, anyway)!
Bhoins,
As far as snipers, the Marines are using them a little differently in Iraq. They are sending them out in urban situations to control the streets from the rooftops. I think this is one of those places where "sharpshooter" and "sniper" blur together. But, I agree that FOs would probably not be snipers.
Actually, would you want something so powerful as a laser rifle to do lasing work? You can practically do it now with a laser pointer (a specialized one, though), so I think a laser rifle would be overkill. Also, it would (IMHO) make the possibility of shooting the wrong end of the beam even more likely. (You get a nice "bright" spot at both ends, you know!)
I wouldn't put "air power" below the regiment level. First, it is a HVLD - High Value, Low Density - item due to costs. (Though Piper is right about grav technology blurring more lines.) Second, because of its punch, it needs to be flexible across the battlespace (why the AF doesn't just assign aircraft to Army units) - so it will be assigned to a higher echelon. In the US Marines, helicopters are assigned to the Regiments, but fixed wing assets are kept at the Task Force level (however big that happens to be).
Oh, and Bhoins, (cf your artillery at lower levels) do you really need mortars when you have a PGMP-12?
Yup, Air Liaison Officers (ALO) are the doctrinal method for providing Air Force ground attack control to the US Army. The AF won't assign their aircraft TACON or OPCON to the Army, they provide ALOs to provide advice, coordination, and control for the Army. A lot of my fellow pilots didn't agree, but I thought it was a great job (allowing as how I was medically grounded, anyway)!
Bhoins,
As far as snipers, the Marines are using them a little differently in Iraq. They are sending them out in urban situations to control the streets from the rooftops. I think this is one of those places where "sharpshooter" and "sniper" blur together. But, I agree that FOs would probably not be snipers.
Actually, would you want something so powerful as a laser rifle to do lasing work? You can practically do it now with a laser pointer (a specialized one, though), so I think a laser rifle would be overkill. Also, it would (IMHO) make the possibility of shooting the wrong end of the beam even more likely. (You get a nice "bright" spot at both ends, you know!)
I wouldn't put "air power" below the regiment level. First, it is a HVLD - High Value, Low Density - item due to costs. (Though Piper is right about grav technology blurring more lines.) Second, because of its punch, it needs to be flexible across the battlespace (why the AF doesn't just assign aircraft to Army units) - so it will be assigned to a higher echelon. In the US Marines, helicopters are assigned to the Regiments, but fixed wing assets are kept at the Task Force level (however big that happens to be).
Oh, and Bhoins, (cf your artillery at lower levels) do you really need mortars when you have a PGMP-12?
Well, back in my day, (sound of creaking bones) when lasers were direct electrical input from a backpack, you could toggle the power from "TV remote" up to "toast" with a simple switch. Now, it's all these fancy cartridge-pumped lasers ... (grumble grumble)
I guess you could do the same thing with an EPG (explosive power generator) by having it charge an internal capacitor. I don't think a CLC (chemical laser cartridge) could be set to lower power without dumping the excess somewhere else.
It might make sense to have special designators anyway; you wouldn't want your ortillery strike to miss the bunker and take out a chicken coop because some private was spamming with a rangefinder at the wrong time.
Apologies to Bhoins for stepping on a question directed at him.
Plasma guns are great at what they do, but they have some drawbacks; they're line-of-sight, only fire one type of ammo and almost always give their position away as soon as you fire them. Mortars, and other indirect-fire weapons, can fire without being directly observed and can drop a wide variety of ammo types (smoke, chaff, mines, etc.)
They can still be located in various ways, so they'll have to be either mobile or disposable, but moving should be easier since they're not usually under direct enemy observation.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
(joins Piper on the porch of rockers at the old soldiers home) Yyyep, I member them Deleeaye* Lasers too. Very functional in that 'spect and handy in zero-gee too. If ya lost yar grip on the thing it only drifted off a bit and you could pull it back by the cable. Then them fancy cartridge lasers came along and it was a lot of carry the ammo, swap the ammo, clean the ammo slot, try the ammo again and hope the contacts are clean. Supply dint much like em either. Instead of just pluggin in the power pack now they had to haul a bunch of hazardous cartridges and replace them whenever they were spent. La-freakin-gis-tacular-nightmare (mumble mumble)
* sound it out youngsters D L I for Direct Electrical Input, the old way of powering laser weapons with a rechargeable power pack. Wait a minute that's not right 
Somebody help me out here
Maybe it's cause I called em Deerect Lectrical Input in character so long that I started thinkin them as DLI rather than DEI
* sound it out youngsters
D L I for Direct Electrical Input, the old way of powering laser weapons with a rechargeable power pack. Wait a minute that's not right Somebody help me out here
Yeee-up. Those were the days, alright.
'member when "orbital assault" was steppin' out the airlock with just your vacc suit and a can of quickie foam? Now it's all "drop capsules" and "launch tubes" ... it's like riding a dern bus!
<shakes head> Kids these days ...
Want another beer?
'member when "orbital assault" was steppin' out the airlock with just your vacc suit and a can of quickie foam? Now it's all "drop capsules" and "launch tubes" ... it's like riding a dern bus!
<shakes head> Kids these days ...
Want another beer?
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Ahh yes, watch that first step and hope your delta-v doesn't bounce or burn ya
Right ya are too it was a Vacc-Suit, or if you were extra special you might get some Combat Armor. Hardly ever saw Battle Dress, now they all gotta have it or they don't get outta bed in the morning.
Good times, good times to be behind us <hahaha>
Thanks for the beer, don't mind if I do. Cheers!
(apologies Employee 2-4601 if a couple of posts from some crotchety old timers clutter up your thread without your blessings
)
Good times, good times to be behind us <hahaha>
Thanks for the beer, don't mind if I do. Cheers!
(apologies Employee 2-4601 if a couple of posts from some crotchety old timers clutter up your thread without your blessings
