Vehicle and support weapon squad level integration

[mike wightman]

Nice design Dan

One question/nitpick though, if I may.

I can see how you worked out the armour matrix, but most of the resultant DMs are higher than they are for the VRF Gauss gun.

I'm just wondering if there should be a cap of +7 on the DM - which basically means using the Gauss rifle on full auto numbers.

And I've just noticed that the Gauss rifle on full auto gets better DMs at long and very long ranges.

I'd suggest:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Range Matrix:
.
C S M L V Dmg
/ -6 +6 +5 +2 4Dx4*
.
* for 50 round burst, 10 round burst is 4Dx3
.
.
Armor Matrix:
.
None Jack Mesh Clth Rflc Ablt Batl
+7 +7 +5 +3 +7 +7 +1</pre>[/QUOTE]

 

[far-trader]

Yeah, I know, that armor matix is the one bug in the problem Well the one I saw too The flechette grenades do go up to +9 vs some so that seemed the cap to me, but being more than the VRF seems to mean that I need to adjust the HGR down, or the VRF up I like your suggestion, it's probably how it should go.

The range matrix difference is because I based the interpolation off the Gauss Rifle's unenhanced stats, no electronic sights. The electronic sights are standard for the Gauss Rifle and reflected in the book stats, so they would be 4 less at long and very long range. Does it look better there given that? Your numbers there would be for the HGR fitted with better sights, either optics or electronic, not quite up to the +4 level, just +2

 

[mike wightman]

By unenhanced do you mean the number in front of the forward slash?
e.g. assault rifle
Close Short Medium
-4/-4 +1/+1 -1/+2

The first number is for single shot fire, the second is for four round burst fire.
This is explained better in Snapshot.

Or do you mean taking off the stats for an electronic sight?

Why would the squad support weapon not have the electronic sight?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Well I dug up my copy of the MT rules.
I now know why the Assault Rocket Launcher didn't stick in my mind. It is basically alternative tech to the ACR. It certainly isn't a SAW, or support weapon. It is a 10mm Gyrojet gun, with the Ammo options of the ACR. With only a 20 round magazine it isn't going to be very useful in the suppressive fire role or base of fire role. It also has a relatively low rate of fire.

I like the idea of a SAW version of the ACR and the Gauss Rifle, but to date there isn't an official one.

 

[far-trader]

Official schmicial

MORE GUNS NOW!

Yeah Sigg, I could have been clearer. By unenhanced I only mean with the advanced sights removed, so the long and very long range mods change. That seemed the fair way to compare since neither the AR or LMG have them included and I was using them for the scale. btw I chose that pair, if anyone is wondering because they are very close to the same design. Same ammo and damage mostly, so they seem close cousins.

I was using my own crib notes, which as is often the case, are slightly mtuized and I as usual forgot that. The differences are I have the stats listed unenhanced (no advanced sights) which only applies to the Gauss Rifle and ACR and only changes the range modifers, not the weight and costs. I figure the weight and cost listed should not include electronic sights that normally add 1.5kg and Cr2000. I mean, it's like...

<Ahnold accent> "I'll take da 9 millimetar Ahdvanced Combate Rifle."

<shopkeeper> "Excellent choice for home defence sir, and only Cr1000 which includes the Electronic Battlefield Sight, a Cr2000 value."

<Ahnold again> "In dat case I'll take all you haav. I know where I can sell da guns for Cr500 and da alectroniks for Cr1000. I'll make Cr500 clair on every unit. Ah'll bay ritch."

So where was I, oh yes mtuoids The other possible confusion in not explaining my cribbed notes is I also simplify the armor matrix by just including one stat (no #/# for single round/auto fire). Weapons with autofire capability just have the autofire stat listed on my crib sheets. I also only go with one ammo type for any weapon, again for simplicity, but I do allow tranq rounds for all weapons. I'm considering posting my CT small arms crib sheet and it's mtuies for input/feedback.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
I like the idea of a SAW version of the ACR and the Gauss Rifle, but to date there isn't an official one.

Depends what you mean by "official"

T4's Emperor's Arsenal is chock full of gauss and ACR variants across the TLs - including some that could be adapted to the squad support weapon role.

And GT weapons are official, aren't they?

Ok, so we have to extrapolate their stats - like Dan did earlier - but that's one of the fun options CT gives us - make up new weapons using the existing combat matrices.

Loren showed how to make up a laser pistol in an early JTAS editorial, IIRC.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Official schmicial

MORE GUNS NOW!

Couldn't agree more

<Ahnold accent> "I'll take da 9 millimetar Ahdvanced Combate Rifle."

<shopkeeper> "Excellent choice for home defence sir, and only Cr1000 which includes the Electronic Battlefield Sight, a Cr2000 value."

<Ahnold again> "In dat case I'll take all you haav. I know where I can sell da guns for Cr500 and da alectroniks for Cr1000. I'll make Cr500 clair on every unit. Ah'll bay ritch."

Such shameless exploiting of the Traveller pricing structure - there should be a law against it

I'm considering posting my CT small arms crib sheet and it's mtuies for input/feedback.

I vote for you posting it.

 

[Piper]

ahem ...

Originally posted by Piper:
Gauss Light Support Weapon:
Use the range and target modifiers of the Gauss rifle and the firing rate rules for the light machinegun or VRF.
Needles, battery and coolant come in cassetes loaded like the autocannon. Each cassete holds 10 bursts and weighs maybe 3 kilos. A heavy weapon, so maybe the weight of the TL5 early machinegun.

Book 4 and Striker are practically begging for small arms and light, crew-served weapons designs.
Would there be enough interest to start a separate thread to solicit ideas?

 

[mike wightman]

That could be a good idea.

 

[Uncle Bob]

OTOH, the SAW/Assault rifle squad model is less than 50 yrs old, the LMG as the base of fire for a rifle squad only about 90.

A sustained fire varant of the ACR makes some sense, but I think that by the time of gauss rifles we just might tell off one man to carry extra ammo and lay down a base of fire. Of course, when the M1 Garand was introduced the Army thought it could get rid of the squad BARs as unnecesary, so maybe I'm wrong.

I guess it depends on how usefull other weapons become. If you really need a PGMP or a guided missile in every fire team, the SAW may go away.

BTW, "guided missile" could be an anti-tank weapon or could be a light fire-and-forget weapon for knocking out MGs three kilometers away, like this.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Oh, and may I suggest that a new thread should be started in "Ships Locker", where the gear-heads hang out.

 

[Tobias]

Sorry for being late in this interesting thread:
Issue 64 of Challenge Magazine had the "Missing Links" Article with several support weapons for TL9+
There were:
TL-9 HMG (Based on this: http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg26-e.htm)
TL-10 7mm/9mm LMG (support versions with more ammo of ACR)
TL-10 7mm/9mm Gatling (gatling versions of ACR)
TL-12 Gauss LMG (support version with more ammo of guess what)
TL-13 LRF Gauss Gun (which didnt actually fire all that rapidly, but had the damage stats of a VRF Gauss in a portable - barely so - package)
If desired, I could copy the stats from the article.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[mike wightman]

They're all MT stats aren't they IIRC?

I remember issue 64 as the one where the first steps to TNE were taken...

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
They're all MT stats aren't they IIRC?

Yes, shouldn't be too difficult to translate them into STRIKER, though, and the weights/costs are naturally system-independent.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[mike wightman]

Good idea Tobias.
Converting them to Striker would avoid any copyright issues I'd imagine, and they could then be retconed to CT if needed.

There was also HMG write up in a JTAS IIRC.

 

[Piper]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
I guess it depends on how usefull other weapons become. If you really need a PGMP or a guided missile in every fire team, the SAW may go away.

Which raises an excellent point- a lot depends on vehicle integration and the nature of expected opposition.

Vehicles simplify things if they're designed for direct supposrt; you can mount anything on an APC.

Squads without organic support vehicles (whether by doctrine or circumstance) need to have their support weapons tailored to the expected missions.

None of the off-the-shelf support weapons offer any serious anti-armor capability; you're pretty much dependant on TAC missiles or heavier crew-served weapons.

In an environment with heavy point defense capability, TAC missiles, and even RAM grenades become harder to use; here you may find the PGMP-12 starting to become common. Another situation might be where you're out-teched and you expect opposition from troops in heavy personal armor.

The SAW may very well become obsolete unless it can offer some advantage over the Gauss rifle. Maybe mounting a light VRF or pulse laser on the smallest possible vehicle and equipping it with point defense fire control would be an option?

 

[veltyen]

Maybe mounting a light VRF or pulse laser on the smallest possible vehicle and equipping it with point defense fire control would be an option?

A floating gun on a grav mount. From the description I had assumed a PGMP-14 was already built like that. A nice big vulcan like weapon with matching ammo bins happily floating at an easy usage height.

 

[SgtHulka]

Originally posted by Piper:
In an environment with heavy point defense capability, TAC missiles, and even RAM grenades become harder to use; here you may find the PGMP-12 starting to become common. Another situation might be where you're out-teched and you expect opposition from troops in heavy personal armor.

The SAW may very well become obsolete unless it can offer some advantage over the Gauss rifle. Maybe mounting a light VRF or pulse laser on the smallest possible vehicle and equipping it with point defense fire control would be an option?

Well, this may be old news to you all, but I was a bit shocked when I finally sat down and did a little research to figure out what my Martian Metal "Imperial Marines" were carrying. I thought they were all Gauss Rifles, but it turns out I'm now 90% sure they're *all* carrying FGMP-14's *except* for the Officers which are carrying Laser Carbines and two guys who are carrying what I assume to be Auto-Rams (though I honestly haven't figured those two guys out yet).

Looking at the counters from Azhanti High Lightning supports the above. The FGMP-14/PGMP-13 is assumed to be a personal weapon, not a squad support weapon. Pretty much every guy in a Battledress squad is carrying one. Combat Armor guys carry Gauss Rifles and ACR's.

I'd assumed the Fusion/Plasma Guns were support weapons. Of course, Tech Leve 12, which you're all talking about, is an entirely different beast, but I thought I'd chime in. And checking the Striker tables, TL 14 Combat Armor and Battledress has AV 18. As Piper points out, even a Heavy Machinegun with a penetration of 6 isn't gonna be a bit of use on suppression duty. It's just gonna bounce off like superman. Even a Gauss Rifle, with a Penetration of 7 is pretty obsolete. So in a wierd way arming everyone with Plasma Guns/Fusion Guns at penetration 25/34 is the way to go.

Again, looking at Striker, if you expect to be up against Imperial Troops and you're only Tech Level 12, you'd *better* be carrying as many Plasma "Pigs" as possible. It's the only thing that even comes close to threatening TL 14 armor, with a penetration of 20 at Effective Range. Though how you'd actually get it to Effective Range before being turned into a crater by the Imperials' Fusion Gun fire is a mystery...

Anyway, maybe the idea is, as Piper points out, that once every soldier's a tank, the whole idea of a support weapon gets thrown out the window. It's all about carrying a big main gun.

 

[SgtHulka]

After posting that it just occurred to me...if everyone's running around in Battledress carrying fusion guns, maybe you should just save money and give everyone PGMP-14's with no armor, anyway? I mean, it doesn't really matter if you're wearing battledress or not -- a fusion gun will kill you just as dead no matter what you're wearing. So save all that money you would have spent on armor to buy a ton more plasma guns. For each suit of battledress you get three PGMP-14's, and it's even easier to train troops to use them because they don't need Battledress skill. It's even got the exact same range as the fusion gun.

And then, in the rock-paper-scissors way, suddenly squad automatic weapons have a purpose again. Because suddenly there are troops that can be suppressed!

So you've got battledress squads equipped to take out suppression squads, and you've got plasma squads to take out battledress squads, and you've got suppression squads to pin down plasma squads.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Vehicle integration is great, until you have to go indoors. For example how would a Grav APC work in a fight on Glisten? Or Stoner? Or Gateway?

Second, when you lose the vehicle, and you will lose the vehicle, you also lose your support weapons and your base of fire.

In the Honorverse, the Royal Manticoran Marines use a 6 man fireteam. Each fireteam has a plasma gunner and they also have one or two, "light tribarrells." The average rifleman is equipped with a Pulsar. Now a Pulsar is equivalent to a Gauss Rifle. What Traveller needs is a Light TriBarrell. (Or equivalent.) It would be the equivalent of a high rate of fire Gauss Rifle with an extended magazine.

If you built 3 Gauss Rifles into one housing, with a common trigger, you could fire 3, 12 and 30 round bursts. With a 120 round magazine capacity. (Actually constructing it for this role I would go with a 240 round magazine.)(Or better yet 6 40 round magazines so you could partially reload and keep the beast firing while reloading, indefinitely. (Similar to linking belts, or feeding shotgunshells into a pump action shotgun, so you never run out of ammo.