Vehicle and support weapon squad level integration

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Dan,
Yup, Air Liaison Officers (ALO) are the doctrinal method for providing Air Force ground attack control to the US Army. The AF won't assign their aircraft TACON or OPCON to the Army, they provide ALOs to provide advice, coordination, and control for the Army. A lot of my fellow pilots didn't agree, but I thought it was a great job (allowing as how I was medically grounded, anyway)!

Bhoins,
As far as snipers, the Marines are using them a little differently in Iraq. They are sending them out in urban situations to control the streets from the rooftops. I think this is one of those places where "sharpshooter" and "sniper" blur together. But, I agree that FOs would probably not be snipers.

There is a difference between sharpshooters and the common definition of sniper and a further difference from the Marine Designation of Sniper. (Which is one of the two Marine Special Forces Designations, the other being Force Recon.) Marine Snipers generally operate well behind enemy lines, move by stealth and attack from extremely well concealed positions. They will spend days getting into the perfect position just to take one shot. Simply sitting them on a roof doesn't feel like the typical Marine Sniper Mission, though it does sound like a good sharpshooter/sniper position.

Actually, would you want something so powerful as a laser rifle to do lasing work? You can practically do it now with a laser pointer (a specialized one, though), so I think a laser rifle would be overkill. Also, it would (IMHO) make the possibility of shooting the wrong end of the beam even more likely. (You get a nice "bright" spot at both ends, you know!)

With Naval gunnery having a direct line of sight to most targets you might want to hit, would you need to actually designate the target at all? It would seem to me that you could (matter of fact you can do it today) having a GPS, a pair of binos with a built in compass and Laser Rangefinder, you can mark a target just as effectively. With two spotters and no rangefinder, but otherwise similarily equipped you could also get a very accurate read on where the target is.

Simple geometry is all you need to hit a target, especially a stationary one.

If you are using Naval Gunnery then all you really need is a target description and a general area. The Ships sensors are more accurate than most ground mounted systems and are easily accurate enough to pick off individual vehicles if not individual people.

I wouldn't put "air power" below the regiment level. First, it is a HVLD - High Value, Low Density - item due to costs. (Though Piper is right about grav technology blurring more lines.) Second, because of its punch, it needs to be flexible across the battlespace (why the AF doesn't just assign aircraft to Army units) - so it will be assigned to a higher echelon. In the US Marines, helicopters are assigned to the Regiments, but fixed wing assets are kept at the Task Force level (however big that happens to be).

If your Airpower also happens to be your Armor then it is likely to be fully integrated. Probably no lower than Company Level, but possibly for some specialized units it would be lower. (Cav/Recon Equivalent units for example, where it can be integrated as low as Platoon Level.)

Oh, and Bhoins, (cf your artillery at lower levels) do you really need mortars when you have a PGMP-12?

Well if we are dealing with a Batalion level fire support asset, then yes you need the TLC Equivalent to a Mortar at Batalion Level. PGMPs are just too short ranged. (Even the later FGMPs.) While the PGMP and FGMP is the FireTeam heavy weapon of choice, or should be, it certainly isn't a long range artillery type weapon. Now when dealing with small units, individually deployed from a Corvette to DE range craft, then they wouldn't need the equivalent of a Mortar, they have the gun mounts of their ship. Larger formations will want, and need Artillery. (One of the reasons for the MMMFV, which fills the role of CAS, Armor and Artillery, IMTU.)

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Yeah, Bhoins, grav certainly does blur the lines with things like airpower!

Agree on not needing to designate for artillery too often - IF you're in a hi-TL military. I could see it if you had some hi-TL devices (like laser rifles), but didn't have things like orbital support. GPS targeted artillery (at our TL) is still experimental (what with that big explosion at the beginning), but laser-guided artillery is workable. Laser-guided bombs are getting to be passe, though.

 

[Uncle Bob]

As I understand it, Marine snipers in the latest fighting took up rooftop "hides", often far in advance of the infantry. From these positions they were able to direct fire to prevent the insurgents from moving to counter our attacks.

Inndirrect fire weapons should be integrated at the highest practical level in order to mass fires. Light mortars are at the company level because they don't have the range to cover a battalion. Heavy mortars can't cover more than a battalion, so that is where they are integrated.

Howitzers can cover the footprint of a whole division, so you integrate at that level. That way your F.O.s can call for whole battalions to fire on a high-value target, rather than just the battery assigned to your battalion.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
As I understand it, Marine snipers in the latest fighting took up rooftop "hides", often far in advance of the infantry. From these positions they were able to direct fire to prevent the insurgents from moving to counter our attacks.

I am not saying it isn't possible. It isn't the traditional use of such teams. (And unlike the Hollywood interpretation, Snipers do generally work in two man teams, they aren't out there alone.) I will point out though that reports of SOF operations tend to be wrong, misinterrpreted by the Press or even misdirected. This appears to be more of the Marine Force Recon/Navy Seals Traditional mission, which either would be at least as well equipped to handle, and better trained to handle.

Inndirrect fire weapons should be integrated at the highest practical level in order to mass fires. Light mortars are at the company level because they don't have the range to cover a battalion. Heavy mortars can't cover more than a battalion, so that is where they are integrated.

Howitzers can cover the footprint of a whole division, so you integrate at that level. That way your F.O.s can call for whole battalions to fire on a high-value target, rather than just the battery assigned to your battalion.

Absolutely. However, an Orbital platform can cover a whole theatre, but is more likely to have a specific dedicated tasking. Enclosed Environments also limit the ability of Artillery, especially Traditional Artillery to cover any kind of ground.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
Yeah, Bhoins, grav certainly does blur the lines with things like airpower!

Agree on not needing to designate for artillery too often - IF you're in a hi-TL military. I could see it if you had some hi-TL devices (like laser rifles), but didn't have things like orbital support. GPS targeted artillery (at our TL) is still experimental (what with that big explosion at the beginning), but laser-guided artillery is workable. Laser-guided bombs are getting to be passe, though.

Actually Desiginating for Artillery is a relatively new phenonmenom. The inherent inaccuracy of Artillery was because it was difficult to get an extremely accurate location on both the target and the firing unit. The US used TOT (Time on Target) Artillery to great effect in WWII. (Freaked out all the European powers with that one.) While everyone else was using spotting rounds, adjusting fire then calling for Fire For Effect, and US Soldiers are trained to do just that as well, they also, especially at higher echelons, just called the FFE in without the spotting and adjustment rounds against preplanned targets and even occasionally against Area Targets of Opportunity. The keys are knowing where your Arty is, the Weather, and where the target is. And you have to know all three accurately to do that neat little trick. With the advent of GPS the only real varible is the weather. (Particularily the wind, though barometric pressure, and percipitation both have an effect.) While you aren't going to pick off a moving tank with one round, which is what Copperheads (Laser Desiginated Artillery Rounds) are for, you can easily hit an area target with as much, or as little artillery as you want to without the need for gross corrections and adjustments.

Back in the late '80s when I was at Ft. Riley, KS as part of the 1st ID(M) we had a Land Navigation course set up for us by an Artillery Unit. The points they set up had 12 digit coordinates. A true accurate 6 digit coordinate is accurate to within +/- 50 meters, 8 Digit +/- 5 Meters, 10 Digit +/- 0.5 meters and 12 would be +/- 0.05 meters!!!

Now if you know where your Artillery is, especially to that accuracy or better, know where your observer is, again to that accuracy, know the direction of the target to the observer to within .1 mils (And current digital compasses get that accurate) and the range to the target, you can hit a Stationary tank, or building with one round more than 50% of the time, and the target will be in the blast radius of a shell virtually all the time. Take a Battery of MLRS and fire the typical ICM load, and you are putting shrapnel in every square meter of a square kilometer and you really don't need that kind of accuracy.

Use the same kind of submunitions that are found in the Smart Pig (J-SOWS) if you can (I am not sure how big the submunitions are in a Smart Pig nor if the MLRS puts the rounds high enough for them to properly work.), and you could kill all the armor vehicles (Stationary or moving) in a wider area with the same strike. (Probably 2 square kilometers.)

Radar Directed Gunnery is even nastier in terms of Accuracy. The Iowa Class Battleships could track their own shells going out, knowing where they were sitting and where the target was supposed to be could self correct their own fire and send a second, corrected and more accurate, salvo, or more, down range before the first rounds impacted in the target area.

The down side to Artillery, in a mid to high tech environment is Counter Battery systems. Counterbattery Radar, deployed by the British first with first confirmed use in 1947 vs. Mortars, can cause your artillery to be fired upon before your rounds even hit the target. Prolonged barrages are a thing of the past. (Of course there are problems with having your Radar up all the time as well.) In a high tech environment there is also point defense. While it is still a ways off the US has systems in the testing stages that show promise for artillery point defense. Again, there are trade offs for this, (EMCON on a high tech battlefield is also important.) but it isn't all that far into the future.

 

[Ranger]

Ok, finally have some time to contribute again so I will add my thoughts on the PGMP-12 as a support weapon.

After looking at it a little more, I've come to the conclusion that it is more along the lines of an energy weapon version of the recoilless rifles or RPG launcher, a weapon with a big punch at a smaller size, but limited to the support role. Consider the following restriction on the PGMP-12 as a "high recoil" weapon:

-Firer must be stationary for a full turn to fire(Striker combat)
-Can only be fired every other turn (CT combat)
-Can not be used at close or short range (CT combat)

I think the best way to work them into the platoon is in two man teams at part of the platoon's weapons' squad. I might even look at making a complete squad of 3 x 2 man gun teams and a leader. This lets you maintain continuious fire support (each gun firing every other turn) with one gun in reserve for opertunity fire. If they are going to be integrated at the squad level, then the PGMP gunner needs a secondary personal weapon he can use in the assult to add firepower at close range and protect himself.

 

[BetterThanLife]

I have thought about those limitations as well.

There really is a gap from TL9 to TLD in Squad Level support weapons. Once you hit the ACR stage you need a new version of the LMG. There is nothing for suppressive fire for dimounts in the book above the LMG. While the area effect nature of the PGMP/FGMP addresses this it isn't truly effective for Non-Powered (ie typical non-Imperial Funded) Grunts until TLE.

The ACR and the Gauss Rifle both significantly change how ammunition is used by the rifleman, I can't see still carrying around a Low-Tech LMG.

Laser Rifles and Carbines, while they have their uses, aren't Squad Support Weapons. They don't have any better range than a Gauss Rifle or ACR, they have a low rate of fire and because the beam is invisible they don't really have a suppressive fire capability.

The LAG, only has a 5 round magazine, has a low rate of fire, can't be properly manhandled on the move except by really big guys, and again isn't a good choice to develope a base of fire.

Hand the Plasma Gunner a pistol or SMG for self defense. (Probaly Snub SMG and issue everyone else a Snub Pistol Sidearm.)

There needs to be a LMG/SAW variant of the ACR and the Gauss Rifle. Perhaps in the long ago promissed (promissed in TA1 of all places.) Military Weapons of Charted Space.

Actually thinking about it probably just the ACR should have the SAW version. The Gauss Rifle could have been planned to integrate the PGMP and later FGMP at fireteam level but the weapon didn't live up to specs until TLE.

Now everyone is trying to figure out exactly what to do at the Fireteam/Squad Level because the PGMP-12 doesn't work to spec.

 

[far-trader]

Well I'd put a version of the VRF Gauss Gun in that role. In Book 4 it's only 2kg for the weapon at TL10. Tune down rof so it's just 10 round bursts and use a small ammo magazine box with say 200 rounds and you only add 2kg for the ammo. I'd probably keep the range matrix the same and drop the armor matrix numbers by 2 across the board for the reduction in rof but the 10 round burst still allows three hit chances per attack vs target. And I'd keep the damage at 10d6.

So tell me, ya still want that PGMP-14 that costs an extra KCr100 and weighs 5kg more for just the weapon*

* yeah yeah, ok, so it's next to no weight with the grav turned on, but what if that goes out

 

[mike wightman]

GURPS Traveller gives us the ASW 9mm (advanced support weapon) in the Star Mercs supplement, and both the Gauss SMG 4mm High Power and Gauss LSW 4mm in the Ground Forces book.

They should fill that gap nicely...

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Well I'd put a version of the VRF Gauss Gun in that role. In Book 4 it's only 2kg for the weapon at TL10.

Check the small print in your copy of LBB4 again Dan
It has a mass of 2000kg, exactly the same as its mass in Striker

 

[Golan2072]

I'll be submitting an article containing new weapons and military equipment to the next Stellar Reaches; a Gauss SAW is included

 

[Ranger]

Ok, I knew there was another weapon out there that was supposed to fill the LMG role, I just couldn't remember what it was. JTAS 17 has it; the Assult Rocket Launcher. It's TL10, it can provide auto fire support and it's a Zero G weapon as well. I didn't make it into Striker, but it is in MT and (I think) TA1. That's probably what you want as a TL12 support weapon at the fire team/squad level.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
Well I'd put a version of the VRF Gauss Gun in that role. In Book 4 it's only 2kg for the weapon at TL10.

Check the small print in your copy of LBB4 again Dan
It has a mass of 2000kg, exactly the same as its mass in Striker </font>[/QUOTE]ACK! You're right. That's just stupid imo. It's as big as a towed Howitzer?! I always had pictured it more as a 50cal sized light vehicle weapon. Must have been misreading all those years ago too. Isn't the one in TNE much smaller and more along the lines of what I'm picturing? Or did I muff that too?

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by far-trader:
ACK! You're right. That's just stupid imo. It's as big as a towed Howitzer?! I always had pictured it more as a 50cal sized light vehicle weapon. Must have been misreading all those years ago too. Isn't the one in TNE much smaller and more along the lines of what I'm picturing? Or did I muff that too?

Well, the description does say it is cryogenically cooled, and I've always imagined it to include the turret it is mounted in - a bit like this

And you aren't going senile yet, the TNE version is much smaller - the illustration looks a lot like a stretched gattling gun mounted on a tripod.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Ranger:
Ok, I knew there was another weapon out there that was supposed to fill the LMG role, I just couldn't remember what it was. JTAS 17 has it; the Assult Rocket Launcher. It's TL10, it can provide auto fire support and it's a Zero G weapon as well. I didn't make it into Striker, but it is in MT and (I think) TA1. That's probably what you want as a TL12 support weapon at the fire team/squad level.

In MT the ARL is a superior weapon to the Gauss rifle in a way, in that both its KEAP round and HEAP round have a greater penetration. The latter can actually threaten combat armour and battle dress equiped troops, especially if the pinpoint location rule is used.

It suffers from several drawbacks though, such as reduced amunition capacity, greater signature, and shorter range.

Perhaps it is best used as a squad support weapon...

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
ACK! You're right. That's just stupid imo. It's as big as a towed Howitzer?! I always had pictured it more as a 50cal sized light vehicle weapon. Must have been misreading all those years ago too. Isn't the one in TNE much smaller and more along the lines of what I'm picturing? Or did I muff that too?

Well, the description does say it is cryogenically cooled, and I've always imagined it to include the turret it is mounted in - a bit like this </font>[/QUOTE]Well that would go a ways towards justifying the cost and weight. Good link btw

it is kind of what I can see it being, but I can't imagine the CROW being 2000kg. Have to see if I can google up some weight specs on it.

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
And you aren't going senile yet...

Hooray Thanks for the check, have to look at my TNE later when it's at hand.

 

[Anthony]

The GURPS Traveller VRF is also dramatically smaller; it's kind of hard to justify a 4mm gauss autocannon being vastly different in size and performance from a 4mm gauss rifle. Different, sure. Different at the level you see in Striker, no.

 

[Uncle Bob]

CROW is just a remote mount for a HMG (M2, Mk 19, M307)

I think the CT/Striker VRF gauss was more like the M167, U.S. Army standard air defence in the 1970s, shown here
http://www.bragg.army.mil/18abn/images/vulcan.jpg
It may have been 4mm, but the higher MV and ROF puts it two orders of magnitude beyond a gauss rifle.

The Navy Phalanx CIWS uses a weapon similar to the M167 to defend US Navy ships from missiles. One was recently deployed (without ship) to the Green Zone in Baghdad. It is expected to intercept rockets and mortar shells, a true Point Defence Weapon.

 

[far-trader]

Yes CROW mounts said weapons in a remote turret with advanced optics and such. That's what makes it bigger, still not quite as big as the Book 4/Striker VRF GG in my guess but more like I always imagined it.

Yep, at 2,000kg for the Book 4/Striker VRF GG that vulcan is more in line with the idea. A large towed gun. Or perhaps a heavy vehicle mounted gun, something like a small self-propelled howitzer or the vulcan in the back of large truck.

And now that I look at the book I can see that not only is it described as cryo-cooled but also a turreted configuration.

Ah well, Employee 2-4601 and Stellar Reaches will deliver more what I imagine

 

[far-trader]

So, unable to wait for the SR issue I cooked up my own version of a crew served heavy gauss weapon. I basically just interpolated from the TL-12 Gauss Rifle based on the relationship of the Assault Rifle to the LMG. The only thing that looks wacky is the Armor Matrix. Let me know what you think and suggest what you think fits or not. I'm especially curious to know if mine is in the same firing range as your's Employee 2-4601 or if we have different takes on it

Without further ado, I present the HGR-10...


Support Weapon:

Heavy Gauss Rifle (HGR): The HGR is an early development of man-portable gauss weaponry. It fires the same 4mm, 4gram needle bullets at velocities of 1500 meters per second that it's later smaller cousin the Gauss Rifle does.

The high cyclic rate of 1000 rounds a minute allows burst fire of 10 or 50 rounds for each pull of the trigger. Ammo is usually fed from high capacity ammo drums. Each ammo drum holds 500 rounds and can be mounted on either side of the receiver, or two drums may be mounted for a total ammo capacity of 1000 rounds.

Up to five bursts may be fired per combat round, and each may be directed at a different target if within a 45 degree forward arc. Jamming is almost never an issue. Roll 2D for 15+ with a DM of +1 per burst fired after the first.

The HGR is provided with a bipod and may be equipped with a tripod or pintel mounted on a vehicle. To fire the weapon must be mounted or rested, usually on the bipod but almost any handy elevated surface will do.

Typically the weapon is crew served, with the gunner carrying and firing the weapon, and a loader carrying two or more ammo drums.

Length: 1000mm. Weight, Unloaded: 6500 grams (500 round ammo drum: 5000 grams). Base price: Cr 6000 (500 round ammo drum Cr 375). Extreme range: 1000 meters. Tech level 10.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Range Matrix:
.
C S M L V Dmg
/ -6 +6 +3 +0 4Dx4*
.
* for 50 round burst, 10 round burst is 4Dx3
.
.
Armor Matrix:
.
None Jack Mesh Clth Rflc Ablt Batl
+9 +9 +5 +3 +9 +8 +1</pre>[/QUOTE]