CT Only: Vehicle combat using LBB1-3

[mike wightman]

I posted this on another thread so it is somewhat buried.

I thought I would repost it so I can clean it up and get constructive comments.

Vehicle armour
For unarmoured vehicles you have to hit the equivalent of mesh armour with personal scale weapons, light armoured vehicles cloth armour, medium armoured vehicles battle dress and heavy armored vehicle are immune to personal scale weapons.

On a successful hit roll on the smallcraft damage table. Simple as that.

Advanced version
If you really want to go the extra mile, and like rolling damage dice, for each component in the vehicle give it a hit number as if it were an animal and that becomes the damage to reduce its efficiency/disable the component.

The components are drive, controls/computer, crew/passengers, cargo, weapon mount.
Note a cabin hit on the small craft table has to be randomised between crew, passengers and cargo (if any).

Animal hits are rated as xd6/yd6, under this system the d6 is not rolled rather the referee decides how much of the 1-6 value to allocate based on the ruggedness of the component, internal armouring or deliberate redundancy.

To determine the hits of a component estimate its mass within the vehicle (or look up real world examples of engines etc.) and find the nearest animal mass to get xd6/yd6 value.

e.g. an open air raft can lift 4 tons and 4 people (let's say at 100kg each) so that's the equivalent of 44 grav belts. 10kg per grav belt give the grav lifters on the air/raft a mass of 440kg
Nearest animal is 400kg so I have 6d/3d for hits.
I decide that grav modules are delicate so give them 2 hit per die so the damage rating of the drive is 12/6
Controls/computer are 25kg (I made this up based on the mass of electronic and mechanical items in the equipment section of LBB:3) for a hit rating of 6/4

So my air/raft card says:

air/raft(mesh)---drive 12/6---controls 6/4---crew 1/1/1/1---cargo (4t)

combat example: Bod shoots at the air/raft with his smg, rolls to hit vs mesh armour and gets a hit.
Smallcraft hit table is consulted and the result is drive.
3d are rolled for a total damage of 9, the drive is still ok
Bod shoots again and gets a cabin hit, one of the crew takes the 3d of damage this time.

g-carrier example:
the g-carrier is an armoured troop carrier often fitted with a weapon mount. I decide that as a paramilitary vehicle components are a bit more durable than in the humble air/raft so I give them 4 damage points per die.
g-carrier(battledress)---drive 24/12---controls 9/6---crew 1/1, troops 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1---laser rifle mount 6/6---cargo 2t

Not the '1's in the crew/passenger entry are to determine who is hit, not damage points.

It doesn't take long to stat a vehicle, and a library of the values could be built up.

Another potential use of these rules is to assign hits values to machinery eg stuff inside a starship. Decide how massive the component is, look up nearest animal mass and multiply by 4, 5 or 6 depending on how hardened the machinery system is.

 

[McPerth]

For unarmoured vehicles you have to hit the equivalent of mesh armour with personal scale weapons, light armoured vehicles cloth armour, medium armoured vehicles battle dress and heavy armored vehicle are immune to personal scale weapons.

So, you limit the problem to the AFV, of the vehicles given in TTB. A true advance, but the problem still remains (though quite reduced)

And, if you're using also LLB4, are they also immune to weapons as RAM grenades and high energy weapons (that are also personal scale weapons)?

g-carrier example:
the g-carrier is an armoured troop carrier often fitted with a weapon mount. I decide that as a paramilitary vehicle components are a bit more durable than in the humble air/raft so I give them 4 damage points per die.
g-carrier(battledress)---drive 24/12---controls 9/6---crew 1/1, troops 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1---laser rifle mount 6/6---cargo 2t

Now Joe and Jack fire at it while flying at médium range. Joe has a shotgun and Jack a laser rifle, both have skill 2 on their weapons...

Joe:
DMs are -6 (shotgun vs CA/BD), +3 (shotgun at medium range), +2 (Skill) and +2 (shotgun vs flying), for a total of +1

Jack:
DMs are -6 (lasre rifle vs CA/BD), +2 (laser rifle at medium range) and +2 (skill), for a total of -2

So, the shotgun is better than the laser rifle against this armored flying vehicle... And it's able to dissable it on average damage roll if the controls are hit, or its weapon if hit...

 

[creativehum]

So, the shotgun is better than the laser rifle against this armored flying vehicle...And it's able to dissable it on average damage roll if the controls are hit, or its weapon if hit...

I don't know if "better" is the word.

A shotgun at effective range has a better chance of hitting a vehicle with its spray of pellets and doing some sort of damage against it.

However, if there is effective damage, the shotgun will do 4D6 damage while the laser rifle will do 5D6. So I'd rather hit with the laser rifle.


On another note:

Per the rules, the shotgun "may" get a +2 against flying animals and vehicles. I assumed this was because something flying above you (or elevated higher than you) is a wider target and a shotgun blast has better odds of catching something, and because those flying elements (wings, rotors, delicate grav modules) are more prone to taking disabling damage.

But if the grav vehicle is low to the ground, or far enough away the low angle would not figure into the shot, I wouldn't offer the DM+2 against the flying target.

 

[McPerth]

I don't know if "better" is the word.

A shotgun at effective range has a better chance of hitting a vehicle with its spray of pellets and doing some sort of damage against it.

However, if there is effective damage, the shotgun will do 4D6 damage while the laser rifle will do 5D6. So I'd rather hit with the laser rifle.

Not only to hit, but also to affect, hence the armor DMS. In fact, with most wepons, it should be easier to hit a BD equiped than soldier a unarmored one (bigger target, probably slower moving), but the DM is worse against the BD one because even if hit he's unlikely to be affected.

So, what do you expect to be more likely to damage a G-carrier, shotgun pellets of laser?

And this extra die of damage is unlikely to make a real difference. Drive is likely to need two hits to be inoperative in both cases, while controls and weapon are likely to be out in a single hit in both cases, and for people inside exacly as if hit out of the vehicle.

On another note:

Per the rules, the shotgun "may" get a +2 against flying animals and vehicles. I assumed this was because something flying above you (or elevated higher than you) is a wider target and a shotgun blast has better odds of catching something, and because those flying elements (wings, rotors, delicate grav modules) are more prone to taking disabling damage.

But if the grav vehicle is low to the ground, or far enough away the low angle would not figure into the shot, I wouldn't offer the DM+2 against the flying target.

Even without the +2 for flying, the shotgun DM would be -1 and the laser rifle -2, and from needing a 9 to a 10 there is quite a difference in 2d6 (about 66% more likely to hit).

 

[mike wightman]

So, you limit the problem to the AFV, of the vehicles given in TTB. A true advance, but the problem still remains (though quite reduced)

How effective are personal weapons vs smallcraft or starships in LBB3?
A MBT is just as much a problem as a smallcraft of ship to a group of lightly armed PCs.

There is already a thread for the limitations of LBB1-3, don't bring it here.

And, if you're using also LLB4, are they also immune to weapons as RAM grenades and high energy weapons (that are also personal scale weapons)?

I'm not - notice the LBB1-3 in the title?
I have another post integrating LBB4 weapons and vehicle combat - but considering your instant negative criticism I don't think I will bother.

Now Joe and Jack fire at it while flying at médium range. Joe has a shotgun and Jack a laser rifle, both have skill 2 on their weapons...

Joe:
DMs are -6 (shotgun vs CA/BD), +3 (shotgun at medium range), +2 (Skill) and +2 (shotgun vs flying), for a total of +1

Jack:
DMs are -6 (lasre rifle vs CA/BD), +2 (laser rifle at medium range) and +2 (skill), for a total of -2

So, the shotgun is better than the laser rifle against this armored flying vehicle... And it's able to dissable it on average damage roll if the controls are hit, or its weapon if hit...

Isn't that what shotguns are for? Hitting flying targets?
The fault is in the combat matrices themselves (one of the reasons I stopped using them a long time ago). But that is a discussion you can take to another thread.
Shotgun damage should drop with range and shot spread - you shouldn't get the hit bonus for spread without losing damage, but again that is for another thread.

 

[creativehum]

[Cross-Posted with Mike's reply]

Not only to hit, but also to affect, hence the armor DMS. In fact, with most wepons, it should be easier to hit a BD equiped than soldier a unarmored one (bigger target, probably slower moving), but the DM is worse against the BD one because even if hit he's unlikely to be affected.

Yes, as I've said elsewhere, the Combat Matrixes don't determine "to hit" -- they determine if penetrating damage occurred at all.

The fact is, the difference between the two weapons isn't that great in CT. The shotgun has an 11% greater chance of getting an effective hit in this case (I think you meant 11%, not 66%, yes?) and the laser rifle does a D6 more damage.

That's the nature of CT combat, not a matter of Mike's tables. If one doesn't like the fact that laser rifles are not particularly more effective against Combat Armor, then one needs to address the tables. (In Striker, laser rifles are clearly more effective than shotguns in Classic Traveller.)

As for which one should be more likely to damage a ground carrier, a shotgun or laser rifle, I can't rightly say. The laser rifle probably has a better chance to pierce, but its damage is tight and focused. The spray of pellets won't be as penetrating power, but there's an increase of odds it doing damage to something of value. At least that's how I'm looking at it.

But, again, I'm working from the Combat Matrixes as is. If one wants lasers to be particularly more effective than shotguns, the Combat Matrixes probably need to be rejiggered.

 

[McPerth]

How effective are personal weapons vs smallcraft or starships in LBB3?
A MBT is just as much a problem as a smallcraft of ship to a group of lightly armed PCs.

Agreed. I was not intending any pun nor criticism when I said you reduced the problem to only the AFV from the vehicles in TTB. reducing a problema from any vehicle to just the AFV is a true advance.

There is already a thread for the limitations of LBB1-3, don't bring it here.

I know ,and I'm the one who put the lack of vehicle combat rules there...

I'm not - notice the LBB1-3 in the title?

I did, that's why I specified if you also use LBB4.

I have another post integrating LBB4 weapons and vehicle combat - but considering your instant negative criticism I don't think I will bother.

It would be a shame.

Isn't that what shotguns are for? Hitting flying targets?

Yes, but unarmored ones.

The fault is in the combat matrices themselves (one of the reasons I stopped using them a long time ago). But that is a discussion you can take to another thread.
Shotgun damage should drop with range and shot spread - you shouldn't get the hit bonus for spread without losing damage, but again that is for another thread.

Agreed too. I put the shotgun example because I felt it was the most extreme case, and extreme cases, while not the most representative, use to be the best to detect the flawls.

That's not to mean you did a bad adaptation here, working with tools you have (LBB1-3 rules).

 

[McPerth]

I think you meant 11%, not 66%, yes?

No, I meant 66%, though I probably should have added relative:

You have 6 possibilities out of 36 to roll 10+

You have 10 possibilities out of 36 to roll 9+

10/6=1.66, so a 66% (relative) raise in your possibilities

 

[creativehum]

No, I meant 66%, though I probably should have added relative:

You have 6 possibilities out of 36 to roll 10+

You have 10 possibilities out of 36 to roll 9+

10/6=1.66, so a 66% (relative) raise in your possibilities

Got it.

 

[kilemall]

That's the nature of CT combat, not a matter of Mike's tables. If one doesn't like the fact that laser rifles are not particularly more effective against Combat Armor, then one needs to address the tables. (In Striker, laser rifles are clearly more effective than shotguns in Classic Traveller.)

<Raises hand> Clearly more effective, by what criteria?

Two different tools for two different tactical problems.

Relevant to the vehicle as target, yes the laser would, unless the vehicle is carrying reflec/ablat armor.

 

[creativehum]

<Raises hand> Clearly more effective, by what criteria?

Two different tools for two different tactical problems.

Relevant to the vehicle as target, yes the laser would, unless the vehicle is carrying reflec/ablat armor.

I was going by the numbers listed in Striker Book 3.

TL 9 Laser Rifle Effective: 18(9) Long: 36(4) Extreme:180(1)
TL 13 Laser Rifle Effective:40(20) Long:80(12) Extreme: 400 (4)

TL 5 Shotgun Effective:5(1)+6 Long:10(0)+3 Extreme:--
TL 7 Auto shotgun Effective:5(1)+6* Long:10(0)+3* Extreme:--
["+" penetration is for auto fire; "*" value is doubled for auto fire]

I might very well be reading the game incorrectly. But going by the blunt numbers above it seems lsder rifles are much more effective in terms of range than shotguns and have, generally, substantially better penetration. (The TL 7 auto shotgun on full auto beats the TL 9 laser rifle for penetration, but still has a significantly shorter range.)

That's what I based my comment on. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I look forward to learning more.

 

[kilemall]

I was going by the numbers listed in Striker Book 3.

TL 9 Laser Rifle Effective: 18(9) Long: 36(4) Extreme:180(1)
TL 13 Laser Rifle Effective:40(20) Long:80(12) Extreme: 400 (4)

TL 5 Shotgun Effective:5(1)+6 Long:10(0)+3 Extreme:--
TL 7 Auto shotgun Effective:5(1)+6* Long:10(0)+3* Extreme:--
["+" penetration is for auto fire; "*" value is doubled for auto fire]

I might very well be reading the game incorrectly. But going by the blunt numbers above it seems lsder rifles are much more effective in terms of range than shotguns and have, generally, substantially better penetration. (The TL 7 auto shotgun on full auto beats the TL 9 laser rifle for penetration, but still has a significantly shorter range.)

That's what I based my comment on. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I look forward to learning more.

Against say an unarmored vehicle carrier with no effective armor, say valued 1-4, sure that laser is going to penetrate.

I believe you are misreading it, the first number is range, the number in parens is the penetration, the +6 is chance to autofire hit.

The laser can do quite a bit of damage, and with the baseline damage system that gives EWs a higher category of damage, more likely dead per shot.

Reflec however is armor 10 against lasers, which tames the lower tech versions at least.

The shotgun's power is in multiple hits. The + DM is for autofire bonuses, the higher you roll and the higher that value, the more multiple hits you inflict.

For every +2 over required hit you achieve, an extra hit is earned. So range counts, as Striker is 8+ Effective 10+ Long 12+ Extreme.

With the +6 DM for pellets, at effective range you can't miss, assuming there isn't cover or other -DMs involved.

Assuming you rolled 7, +6 DM yields 13 which is two extra hits, meaning 3 total hits on your target.

Let's say you are in advanced battle dress with an armor value of 18- that shotgun won't harm you.

But if you are in ballistic Cloth, you will still be protected by quite a bit but all those extra hits will add up.

The Auto Shotgun can also engage two targets, and the autofire DM DOUBLES.

So let's do 2 attacks on 2 targets at effective range with solid shot bullets. That is +4 DM normally, doubled to +8.

Roll a 7 to hit for both, that's 15 which gets us 4 hits on both targets.

Unless they have high level CA/BD or some decent cover to eliminate penetration, they are going to be DEAD. And the lower tech CA/BD won't cut it likely, at least severely wounded.

Course, there is a problem with shotguns- the danger space as all that spray comes out. Best not be any friendlies in front of it.

So there it is- shotguns reign supreme at close, the auto version likely killing 2 targets per autofire, and the laser rifle giving you range and light anti-vehicle capability- if you can hit, and if the target did not invest in ablat or reflec.

 

[creativehum]

I did misread it! Thank you for the clarification on the +DMs regarding to hit, not penetration.

And as I've only read the rules, not had a chance to play them, I had forgotten about the extra hits for every 2 rolled above the to hit value.

Striker does have a really great system for breaking out the qualities (advantages and disadvantages) of different weapons!

 

[pendragonman]

In light of the ranges pointed out above, I seem to have an issue with considering the shotgun the better anti vehicle weapon between them and Lasrifles.

Now Joe and Jack fire at it while flying at médium range. Joe has a shotgun and Jack a laser rifle, both have skill 2 on their weapons...

Joe:
DMs are -6 (shotgun vs CA/BD), +3 (shotgun at medium range), +2 (Skill) and +2 (shotgun vs flying), for a total of +1

Jack:
DMs are -6 (lasre rifle vs CA/BD), +2 (laser rifle at medium range) and +2 (skill), for a total of -2

So, the shotgun is better than the laser rifle against this armored flying vehicle... And it's able to dissable it on average damage roll if the controls are hit, or its weapon if hit...

The shotguns is better at what would be VERY SHORT to POINT BLANK ranges for the Lasrifle. To nullify the mighty goose killer all the vehicle has to do is stay outside range 10. If they must close this distance, they need to come in very hot and fast.

Going back to the G Carrier, if it is doing an assault, your autoshotgun dude is going to have to hit an armored fast mover laying down suppressive fire from its turret. Probably with clouds of antilaser aerosols and obscuring "smoke" launched from the body of the G Carrier (thereby screwing with the shotguns and lasrifles equally).

If, on the other hand, the whole premise is that all of your shooters are taking all of these vehicles by ambush, then it really doesn't matter which one is "better", now does it? Surprise trumps all.

And if the G Carrier isn't doing an assault, and you are not trying to take it from ambush, why are you shooting at it anyway?

 

[mike wightman]

Perhaps it would be better if more damage points are allocated per die , 3 is minimum for delicate all the way up to 6 for rugged:

air/raft(mesh)---drive 18/9---controls 9/6---crew 1/1/1/1---cargo (4t)
[3 points per die for drive and controls]

g-carrier(battledress)---drive 30/15---controls 15/10---crew 1/1, troops 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1---laser rifle mount 6/6---cargo 2t
[5 points per die for drive and controls since they are in a medium armoured vehicle, 6 for the rugged weapon mount]

 

[mike wightman]

Back to the laser rifle vs shotgun - the laser rifle has the advantage in range.
Do you want a few shots - first at very long then long range them medium - as the air/raft closes with you?
Or do you want the one shot you will get off at medium range before it is on you?

 

[McPerth]

Perhaps it would be better if more damage points are allocated per die , 3 is minimum for delicate all the way up to 6 for rugged:

air/raft(mesh)---drive 18/9---controls 9/6---crew 1/1/1/1---cargo (4t)
[3 points per die for drive and controls]

g-carrier(battledress)---drive 30/15---controls 15/10---crew 1/1, troops 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1---laser rifle mount 6/6---cargo 2t
[5 points per die for drive and controls since they are in a medium armoured vehicle, 6 for the rugged weapon mount]

In fact, I like your idea of having fixed points per die, as, unlike animals, that are unique, the vehicles are expected to me more standarized.

Maybe you should use a converting factor (e.g. each 4 hits against personnel mean one hit against vehicles), to represent the harder materials a vehicle is made of (usually metals or hard plastics).

That would make them quite difficult (if not outright imposible) to be disabled with a single personal wepon shoot (at least, of the weapons LBB1-3/TTB give us), which IMHO its "realist".

Or even make this divisor depending on the armor too, so that a civilian car may be so disabled by a single shoot, but an ATV or G-Carrier not...

 

[kilemall]

In light of the ranges pointed out above, I seem to have an issue with considering the shotgun the better anti vehicle weapon between them and Lasrifles.

Huh?

No clearly the lasers are better for anti-vehicle, the shotgun is what you want for starship hall sweepers, although could be good for shooting up antenna, tires and other soft bits.

The supreme TL 8-12 man-portable weapon though is the RAM GL. AT plasma jets FTW, and you can pack anti-personnel rounds with bursts for shotgun-like mayhem.

 

[infojunky]

I posted this on another thread so it is somewhat buried.

I thought I would repost it so I can clean it up and get constructive comments.

Vehicle armour
For unarmoured vehicles you have to hit the equivalent of mesh armour with personal scale weapons, light armoured vehicles cloth armour, medium armoured vehicles battle dress and heavy armored vehicle are immune to personal scale weapons.

On a successful hit roll on the smallcraft damage table. Simple as that.

It is pretty close to what I have been doing for years.

Though recently I have been toying with a system based off of Dirtside2/Stargrunt2.... Though my current issue is how to integrate those with Fullthrust.