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Wanted: CT/MT Stats for Mac SMG

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Firing from the closed bolt gives better first burst accuracy. The MP-5 is widely considered to be more accurate than the other SMGs, and this explains why police and CT forces like it.
I'd modify that to say that firing from a closed bolt gives better semi-auto accuracy. Open bolt guns, by vontrast, have markedly reduced recoil compared to closed bolt guns, which makes them more controlable under full auto fire.

And most militaries have abandoned the SMG except for very specialized work. Compact assault rifles are almost as small and have superior armor penetration and killing power. The SMG is old technology and seems destined to the same fate as the bolt action rifle. Reserved for very special applications.

It is interesting to note that in Traveller the SMG is not considered a 'weapon of a strictly military nature' and is still legal when assault rifles and machineguns are not.
 
Originally posted by kaladorn:
It occurs to me to agree that the Thompson is a pretty good weapon. And if you're lucky, you can get one of the old ones with the drum mag, for that raid-a-speakeasy kinda look.
Ever pick up a loaded 50 or 100 round drum? Beastly heavy. And they only fit the early Thompsons (1921 and 1928 model). Later models like the M1 could no longer even accept the drom magazine, which was considered too heavy, expensive and finicky for military use (but really cool). The final variant of the Thompson, the M1A1 was a much simplified gun, abandoning the Blish lock and operating as a simple open bolt gun. It was also the best of th series.

I think, with the PPSh 41 and the Kalashnikov, the Russians showed (and the T-34, come to think of it) that they could really design some good basic kit. A design ethic far too often eschewed by those who want 'fancy features'. [/QUOTE]

They designed for an uneducated peasant army, and their weapons certainly fitted well with their tactics. Still, give credit where it is due. If accuracy weren't crucial, I'd take an AK over any other rifle.
 
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
OTOH, I did used to build Challenger 2s for a living, so I guess I outgunned most of you...
You outgunned our ARMY!
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:eek:
 
Originally posted by Corejob:
I'd modify that to say that firing from a closed bolt gives better semi-auto accuracy.
I'd believe that, though I was also led to believe by friends of mine who have fired MP-5s here that this extended to the bursts.

This is why the CT/ERT types like it.

Open bolt guns, by vontrast, have markedly reduced recoil compared to closed bolt guns, which makes them more controlable under full auto fire.
I'll buy that.

And most militaries have abandoned the SMG except for very specialized work. Compact assault rifles are almost as small and have superior armor penetration and killing power. The SMG is old technology and seems destined to the same fate as the bolt action rifle. Reserved for very special applications.
That's funny. The Carbine is pretty old technology too, really.

Police ERT teams and CT guys (at least here) don't want superior penetration and killing power (particularly). They want first shot accuracy. They want enough penetration, and no more. They want to put a target down, by shot placement as much as by volume of fire. Yes, there are times having the assault rifle (or full caliber rifle) at hand is key, but in a lot of the situations the shots fired are at 20m or less and there are civilians around (sometimes as things like hostages etc). And stray shots go through walls.

So yes, I guess this is a specialized application. Although the PDW seems a modernized SMG and plenty of nations are looking at these for REMFs and for Armour Crew.

It is interesting to note that in Traveller the SMG is not considered a 'weapon of a strictly military nature' and is still legal when assault rifles and machineguns are not.
Don't they all go illegal at law 2 (or is that 4) when automatic weapons become illegal?
 
The AK (some versions) were quite accurate. Doubly so if cleaned properly ;) But they'd fire even if quite cruddy, which is a handy feature, given the reality of many of these backwater conflicts.

I'm not saying the AK47 is the Cadillac of Guns, but it probably is the F150 or Jeep.
 
Originally posted by kaladorn:
That's funny. The Carbine is pretty old technology too, really.
Police ERT teams and CT guys (at least here) don't want superior penetration and killing power (particularly). They want first shot accuracy. They want enough penetration, and no more. They want to put a target down, by shot placement as much as by volume of fire. Yes, there are times having the assault rifle (or full caliber rifle) at hand is key, but in a lot of the situations the shots fired are at 20m or less and there are civilians around (sometimes as things like hostages etc). And stray shots go through walls.
Ever since the North Hollywood in California, police have become concerned about criminals with body armor. A relatively lightweight vest can defeat 9mm. Rifle cartridges are another matter.

As I mentioned, the role of the SMG is destined for special applications. One of these is police use, although the SMG doesn't seem to have the cachet it once did. For example, most Federal law enforcement agencies are replacing their SMGs with the M-4 (short version of the M-16). Many police departments now carry AR-16 or even M-16 rifles as adjuncts to the traditional shotgun. The LAPD acquired 600 surplus M-16 rifles for their patrol cars.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'carbine'. If you mean weapons like the M-4, this is no more than a short assault rifle (not that I am including semi-auto versions of military rifles under that definition even though technically incorrect. Most civilians undertand semi-automatic versions of select fire military weapons to be 'assault rifles').

It should be further noted that the pentration of the 5.56mm vs. the 9mm SMG is often overstated. Depending on the bullet, the .223 can be an excellent urban round.

So yes, I guess this is a specialized application. Although the PDW seems a modernized SMG and plenty of nations are looking at these for REMFs and for Armour Crew.
This is being driven by the gun industry, not any requirements of the military. The problem the gun companies are running into is they are experiencing flat sales because guns last to long and there hasn't been any major changes to the issue rifle in many years. HK and FN created the PDW concept to create a new market for guns, trying to convince western militaries of an unfilled niche. Note how many armies have actually adopted PDWs. I suspect, for example, the P90 has made more appearances on television than it has military arsenals.

Don't they all go illegal at law 2 (or is that 4) when automatic weapons become illegal?
From CT supplement 3 "Spinward Marches" page 38:

Law Level 3 - "Military weapons (automatic fire gins, except SMGs) are prohibited"

Law Level 4 - "Light assault weapon (including submachineguns) are prohibited"
 
Originally posted by kaladorn:
The AK (some versions) were quite accurate. Doubly so if cleaned properly ;) But they'd fire even if quite cruddy, which is a handy feature, given the reality of many of these backwater conflicts.
It depends on what you mean by accurate. The typical AK is capable of about 5 MOA - many much worse. In studies, we found this true of just about every make we could lay our hands on, including AK derived weapons like the Galil and Valmet (which were both much more accurate than the original).

By contrast, the M-16 typically shoots 2-3 MOA, and it is quite easy to modify the M-16/AR-15 to shoot 1/4 MOA.

Aside: For those who don't know, MOA stands for 'minute of angle' and is actually a measure of precision. One minute of angle represents a circle 1.042 inches at 100 yards. A rifle that shoots '1 MOA' will place al of it's rounds inside a ~1 inch circle at 100 yards, ~2 inches at 200 yards, etc.

The AK is by no means a particularly accurate rifle and that is by design (indeed, it has a reputation as being terribly inaccurate). Kalishnikov intentionally traded accuracy for reliability since he understood that the assault rifle would be used primarily in the automatic mode and at short range where accuracy was not a primary requirement.

There is a lot to be said for a rifle that is so-so in the accuracy department, but works every time you pull the trigger, regardless of how badly you neglect or abuse it.
 
Originally posted by Corejob:
Ever since the North Hollywood in California, police have become concerned about criminals with body armor. A relatively lightweight vest can defeat 9mm. Rifle cartridges are another matter.
US Police


The MP-5 (well, variants) come in other calibers (though none I'd prefer to take against BA unless you had some pretty special loads). And most of our ERT teams have some folks with either .223 or .308 jacketed rounds on hand.


As I mentioned, the role of the SMG is destined for special applications. One of these is police use, although the SMG doesn't seem to have the cachet it once did. For example, most Federal law enforcement agencies are replacing their SMGs with the M-4 (short version of the M-16).
US Federal agencies, perhaps.

I haven't heard of a move up here for the RCMP to do this, though they do have some C7 and C8 rifles as well as sniper weapons of various natures.

Many police departments now carry AR-16 or even M-16 rifles as adjuncts to the traditional shotgun. The LAPD acquired 600 surplus M-16 rifles for their patrol cars.
To contrast our societies:

Vancouver area RCMP in some detachments took the shotgun right out of the car. It wasn't getting much use and was just getting banged around to no good purpose. I know plenty of officers here who've never had necessity to fire a shot in the line of duty or have their guns out other than as a precaution. I think the paperwork you fill out for discharging your weapon is a mild deterrent


So you guys are putting more firepower into the hands of the police, while in Baltimore you can't get staffing levels over 40-50% due to not paying your police enough to make the job worth doing (or worth the risk).

Glad I'm not in your shoes, in some senses.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'carbine'. If you mean weapons like the M-4, this is no more than a short assault rifle (not that I am including semi-auto versions of military rifles under that definition even though technically incorrect. Most civilians undertand semi-automatic versions of select fire military weapons to be 'assault rifles').
Most civilians understand anything with a black receiver group and made of plastic to be an assault rifle, when it comes down to it, regardless of the fact the same weapon with a wooden stock and no handgrip is a 'hunting weapon'.

Carbine = Short Rifle. Historical ones have fired pistol cartridges or underpowered loads (.30, .45 ACP, and if we go far enough back, even things like lead balls and the kind of weapon which required you to tear open an ammo packet to load it). Carbinieri/Dragoons were usually mounted troops or the like and used Carbines. Modern carbines are shortened rifles that tend to use the same round as the rifle (M4 and its variants, some of the HKs, FN P-90 maybe in some configurations... if you stretch the point).

The M4 is just a shortened rifle. That's been around a long time.

In fact, with some of the oddball weapons that FN and HK and some others have out or coming out, the distinction between carbine and full fledged assault rifle are kind of hard to pin down - bullpup rifles can be pretty short and handy, thus making you wonder what a carbine really would be. But in the case of M16 and M4, the M4 is clearly a cut down rifle, hence carbine.

It should be further noted that the pentration of the 5.56mm vs. the 9mm SMG is often overstated. Depending on the bullet, the .223 can be an excellent urban round.
Most police studies I've read suggested that even 9mm has too high a penetration for urban shooting - it will go right through drywall and typical interior walls if you miss and have enough force left to kill. Some police departments also found 12 ga. standard loads to be too hot and have shifted to lower powered tactical loads to avoid 'incidents' or shifted to 20 ga. shotguns instead.

And maybe .223 does have an overstated penetration versus some things. OTOH, I've seen what it does to wood, engine blocks, etc. and I consider its penetration to be too high for urban fighting if I'm concerned about the nearby populace, especially in North American house constructions. Now, if I don't give a hoot about the nearby civs or stray rounds, I have to say it probably underpenetrates for my taste (yes, why go through the door? just fire through the wall!).

This is being driven by the gun industry, not any requirements of the military.
I will bet this is not entirely true, though there may be some truth to it. I am quite sure someone in the military has liked this development and championed it. As an aside, there are many militaries round the world, even just sticking to the G8 or G20. You think there is no champion of this type of weapon in all of those? I'd like to see what data you have access to. For almost every idea in military technology, no matter how good or bad, you'll find a champion in the system somewhere.

The problem the gun companies are running into is they are experiencing flat sales because guns last to long and there hasn't been any major changes to the issue rifle in many years. HK and FN created the PDW concept to create a new market for guns, trying to convince western militaries of an unfilled niche.
Is this a supposition? Or do you have a source that you consider reliable that has some sort of proof of this conspiracy theory?

Note how many armies have actually adopted PDWs. I suspect, for example, the P90 has made more appearances on television than it has military arsenals.
That's a bit of a red herring argument though. There are plenty of assault rifles and weapons systems over the past 30 years that had few appearances in actual arsenals. This can have as much to do with politics, with economics, with timing, and with institutional blind spots as to do with any shortcomings of the weapon system.

From CT supplement 3 "Spinward Marches" page 38:

Law Level 3 - "Military weapons (automatic fire gins, except SMGs) are prohibited"

Law Level 4 - "Light assault weapon (including submachineguns) are prohibited"
Interesting, though I think that might be the only place that this exemption exists. The wording is different in other places.
 
AK vs M16. Whereas a rifle that will work all the time even if neglected and abused has as place, a rifle that is more accurate and will work every time with minimal care is even better for trained warriors.

One reason why 5.56 light rifles and carbines are replacing SMGs in police use is pentration.
5.56 penetrates body armor better than any SMG, but it rarely exits the body. When it hits building materials two interior walls usually stop it.

Much better for police use than a SMG that won't penetrate armor but can kill Grandma three apartments over.

SMGs are legal at a lower law-level IMHO because they can't defeat (cloth) police body armor.

Edit: PDWs. There is a recognized need for this class of weapons, and the first PDW was the M1 Carbine. I don't think the FN P90 or the HK MP7 do a particularly good job.
 
Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Corejob:
From CT supplement 3 "Spinward Marches" page 38:

Law Level 3 - "Military weapons (automatic fire gins, except SMGs) are prohibited"

Law Level 4 - "Light assault weapon (including submachineguns) are prohibited"
Interesting, though I think that might be the only place that this exemption exists. The wording is different in other places.
</font>
Hmm, curious indeed. That's how it's worded in my BBB (Big Black Book, aka The Traveller Book) and seem to recall it said the same in the LBB. Says the same in T20 too though worded just a little differently.

Anyway I'd have jumped in sooner but you all are doing fine without my two bits


Of interest I could add that there was a good program on Discovery last week comparing the AK-47 and M-16. Pros and Cons and interviews with both designers and users. You've hit the main points but to summarize what I can recall...

AK-47

1 poor accuracy - deemed unimportant by Kalashnikov, meant as a high rof (true machinegun) close weapon for the largely untrained

2 simple manufacture

3 extremly robust - always fires even after fouling, one early test they dragged it by a rope behind a truck through sand, shook it out and fired it fine, compare that to a Vet's story of grabbing for his M-16 leaning against a tree when he needed it and knocking it down, picking it up and having it go click but not bang

4 excellent penetration - a lethal comparison with the M-16 in Vietnam, AK's punched through jungle greenery and even small trees so the Americans had no hard cover handy, while the M-16's accuracy at range was deflected by all the greenery and stopped by the same trees

M-16

1 excellent accuracy - designed for standoff engagement, a good idea but in most combat situations in Vietnam it was of little use

2 complex manufacture - precision parts and tight tolerances made maintenance and cleaning difficult when coupled with the change in ammo which made regular cleaning a requirement to prevent fouling from firing (much to Stoner's dismay and against his design requirements for ammo), I think they didn't even include a cleaning kit or instruction initially (since with the original ammo it was not so needed), they did end up printing a Comic Book for the GI's with a buxom gal so the guys would be sure to read it (was nobody insulted by that? if they did read it before a trip to the latrine did any of them take it seriously?)

3 extremely fragile - in the sense of fouling and more importantly when it came to hand to hand one good hit and you'd probably break the buttstock and just annoy the enemy you hit while the same hit from the much heavier AK would hurt a lot more and do no lasting damage to it

4 poor penetration - as described above

Basically the AK-47 is a Military Weapon (law level 3) while the M-16 is a Light Assault Weapon (low level 4), each with it's strengths and weaknesses.
 
Uh, 5.56x45 has better penetration against body armor and light steel (car bodies) than the 7.62x39. There have even been some rather notorious failures of AK bullets to penetrate Kevlar helmets as far back as Grenada. But I don't believe either weapon will pass on law level 3.

7.62x39 does better against auto glass and building materials because of the robust bullet construction. This also explains the mediocre terminal effects of the 7.62x39 that tends to over penetrate and waste energy on the background.

As for the delicacy and reliability of the M16 most of the complaints go back to 1965-7. I have talked to guys who were infantrymen in the 1980-90s who never had a M16 jam, and the only time one jammed on me the blank adapter was loose. Yeah,they jammed in the Iraqi dust, but even AKs can jam in that environment. Although a small caliber assault rifle doesn't have to be an M16 (i.e. AK74, G33, FAMAS, L85A2).
 
Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The problem the gun companies are running into is they are experiencing flat sales because guns last to long and there hasn't been any major changes to the issue rifle in many years. HK and FN created the PDW concept to create a new market for guns, trying to convince western militaries of an unfilled niche.
Is this a supposition? Or do you have a source that you consider reliable that has some sort of proof of this conspiracy theory?
</font>[/QUOTE]I have worked in the firearms industry as a consultant, specifically for Police Automatic Weapons Service and a couple of other companies covered by NDAs.

It's no secret to anyone who follows the industry that most fo the major small arms manufacturers have been experiencing flat sales for the last 10 years. Most of this has been the result of the end of the cold war and the subsequent draw down and budget cuts by many of the worlds militaries. Small arms is one of the lowest priorities in most armies, and often the first to be cut.

Also, the market has been heavily saturated. The Soviet union did such a good job of flooding the world with AK variants that it's own arms industry is in dire straights.

At the same time, western armies are in no hurry to update their arsenals because there is little need. Studies conducted by the US army inparticular have suggested that the basic infantry rifle as we know it has reached it's peak (hence the interest in the OICW). There is little or nothing to be gained by adopting new systems. If you've been following the XM-8 story, HK is pulling out all the stops in an effort to get the US to consider the option, but insiders at the Army's infantry board tell me such a change in weapons is unlikely because from the Army's standpoint the rifle doesn't offer enough significant advantage to offset the huge cost of replacement.

HK, like most oif the other big manufacturers is feeling the pressure. They have already been sold several times in the last decade due to lagging profitability. At one time, GIAT hope to become an arms powerhouse, buying both HK and FN. It proved to be a bad move.

You can see analogous problems in the civilian gun market. Unlike other 'durable goods', guns just don't wear out fast enough. The industry has had to resort to things like inventing and heavily marketing new cartridges to convince buyers to by new guns that really don't do anything better than existing ones.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Note how many armies have actually adopted PDWs. I suspect, for example, the P90 has made more appearances on television than it has military arsenals.
That's a bit of a red herring argument though. There are plenty of assault rifles and weapons systems over the past 30 years that had few appearances in actual arsenals. This can have as much to do with politics, with economics, with timing, and with institutional blind spots as to do with any shortcomings of the weapon system.
</font>[/QUOTE]It has a lot to do with logistics. PDWs just introduce yet another cartridge into the inventory. And the PDW round is clearly inferior to the standard infantry weapons. In addition, in many cases, the PDW doesn't offer that much of a size advantage over carbine or bullpup versions of full power assault rifles

Unlike civilians (and in particular civilian gunwriters) Armies tend to be very conservative in sleecting small arms. The process takes years and there usually has to be a pretty substantial reason to make a change. Armies don;'t care about having the perfect rifle - rifles don't decide battles any more. They only need 'good enough', particularly when the difference between good enough and perfect is a lot of money. Buy several million of anything, and a couple of dollars becomes a lot of money.
 
Originally posted by far-trader:

M-16

1 excellent accuracy - designed for standoff engagement, a good idea but in most combat situations in Vietnam it was of little use
The US military has always had an obsession with accuracy. This is probably derived from the notion that it was the American rifleman that won the war for independence (not true)

While the M-16 does have superior accuracy, that was not one of it primary design requirements. And BTW, the M-16 was NOT designed by Eugene Stoner. He designed the AR-10, a similar rifle built for the 7.62x51mm cartridge. The M-16 was scaled down from the AR-10, but the actual work was done by ArmaLite engineers Robert Freemont and L. James Sullivan. Scale down is rather smplistic, since there were a number of significant changhges from the AR-10. However Stoner is generally given credit for the M-16 because he did design the gas system, based on the Ljungman and Johnson rifles.

What primarily drove the design of the M-16 was a desire to captialize on two seminal studies that were rocking the Army's long held notions about the rifle: "Operational requirements for an infantry hand weapon" by Hitchman and "An effectiveness study of the infantry rifle" by Hall. The first, drawing on data from the ALCLAD study, showed that most rifle combat occured at ranges of 300 meters or less, that aimed fire was not significantly more effective than unaimed fire in producing casualties, and the primary criteria for obtaining a hit were time and degree of exposure of the target. The hall report suggested that at reduced ranges, a small caliber, high velocity bullet could be just as effective as a larger cartridge provide the velocity was high enough. Such a cartridge would be lighter and generate less recoil.

The M-16 was designed to be a rifle that would be highly controllable in automatic fire to improve hit probability while being lighter than it's predecessor, and having lighter ammunition meaning more could be carried.

The fact that it was extremely accurate was more of a fluke than anything else. At the time of the adoptin of the M-16, the US army standard for rifle accuracy was that for any rifle to pass, it had to fure all of it's rounds into a 5.6" circle. This had been the standard since before WWI. It in interesting to note that the M-14, long vaunted for its 'supposed' accuracy, frequently failed this test and several manufacturers claimed that the standard was too strict. By contrast, the Issue M-16s will regularly fire all their rounds into 2" at 100 yards.

Whats funny is that the Hitchman report shows that this kind of accuracy is not even needed (not taken advantage of) in actual combat.

2 complex manufacture - precision parts and tight tolerances ...[snip]
Compared to the rifle it replaced (m014) the M-16 is a snap to build. There are no timed threads, and the upper and lower receiver are made from 7076 aluminum - much easier to machine than steel. The M-14 required a large number of specially made tools and broaches which the M-16 does not. This explains why there are so many companies making AR-15 clones as compared to M-14 copies.

3 extremely fragile - in the sense of fouling and more importantly when it came to hand to hand one good hit and you'd probably break the buttstock and just annoy the enemy you hit while the same hit from the much heavier AK would hurt a lot more and do no lasting damage to it
This may have been true once, The latest generation of stocks are made from an extremely durable polymer.

4 poor penetration - as described above
Yes, to a certain extent. But the 5.56x45mm makes up for that by being more lethal - more lethal than the 7.62x39mm and even more than the more powerful 7.62x51mm due to its behavior in tissue. see: http://www.fen-net.de/norbert.arnoldi/army/wound.html

It is interesting to note that the Soviet Union deployed its own small caliber high velocity cartridge, the 5.45x39mm after its client ( N. Vietnam) had been the receiving end of the 5.56x45mm. The Russians knew a good thing when they saw it.
 
Mikhail Kalashnikov never liked the 5.45x39. It is not as good as the 5.56x45 (mostly because of bullet design), but is certainly not inferior to the 7.62x39.

If the XM8 is adopted soon, it will be in the "auto rifle" version to replace the M249s in rifle squads. The USMC has expressed a need for a weapon shorter and lighter than the M249, preferably more accurate with a box or drum feed instead of a belt. I suspect the Army will eventually follow.

Accuracy in small arms... it is seldom needed, but it does a lot to instill confidence. Besides, when you go to the range you can't blame the rifle if you fail to qualify.
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
If the XM8 is adopted soon, it will be in the "auto rifle" version to replace the M249s in rifle squads. The USMC has expressed a need for a weapon shorter and lighter than the M249, preferably more accurate with a box or drum feed instead of a belt. I suspect the Army will eventually follow.
We can only hope that the XM-8 is not adopted. It is nothing more than a G-36 in fancy dress - another 5.56 rifle that really doesn't offer any advantage over the current issue rifle in terms of increasing hit prpbablility, armor penetration or lethality. Unlike the rifle it would replace, it has not been battle proven.

Too bad IZH isn't competing. I bet they could build an AK variant in 5.56x45mm that would be more reliable and a lot cheaper than the XM-8. Maybe something like the AN-94, which has some treal advantages over existing infantry rifles if only the design can be simplified. Another possibility is the Steyr ACR, which is extremely effective against body armor. The question of the lethality of flechettes remains, however.

It would be a shame to spend large amounts of taxpayer money buying a new rifle with little advantage over the existing one, particularly after rejecting much more advanced rifles tested under the ACR program which did offer real advances in the state of the art (just not the 100% increase in hit proabaility the Army asked for).

The only upside of the XM-8 is it 'look cool' - certainly, it has the lines of a Travelleresque weapon.

Note: More infor on the HK XM-8 can be found here: http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/rifles-carbines/xm8.html

Details on the AN-94 can be found here: http://world.guns.ru/assault/as08-e.htm

Steyr ACR: http://www.steyr-aug.com/acr2002.htm
 
Accuracy is not required in small arms? The USMC would disagree vehemently on that point. Law enforcement agencies would disagree too, especially when you consider the fact that every round fired by an officer must be accounted for. Too much paperwork would result if you armed your officers with 'bullet hoses'. Consider the current passion for limiting collateral damage, maybe even a mania. Accuracy is still required.
 
Originally posted by jwcarroll60:
Accuracy is not required in small arms? The USMC would disagree vehemently on that point. Law enforcement agencies would disagree too, especially when you consider the fact that every round fired by an officer must be accounted for. Too much paperwork would result if you armed your officers with 'bullet hoses'. Consider the current passion for limiting collateral damage, maybe even a mania. Accuracy is still required.
What I said was the the kind of accuracy that the M-16 is capable of is not necessary, and I meant this in the context of military operations - police work is a different matter entirely and is more closely related to sniping.

But, to address the point directly, the obsession with accurate rifle fire, in particular accurate, long range rifle fire particularly at the expense of short range rifle combat training is a problem in the US military, particularly the USMC. It doesn't jibe with the realities of combat.

Any student of military small arms should be familiar with the two works I quoted above. In particular, "Operational requirements for an infantry hand weapon" by Hitchman. It is the only deayiled study of the effectiveness of infantry rifle fire based on actual battlefield data collected in WWII and Korea (and further supported by data collected in Vietnam and in several of the Arab-Israeli conflicts). The results of that study were so counter to the dearly held notions of rifle marksmanship held by the Army and Marine corps that many people just prefer to pretend it doesn't exist.

Some of the most telling blows to our commonly held beliefs about the importance of rifle fire:

Hitchman found that about 90% of all rifle fire occurs at ranges of less than 300 yards, regardless of terrain. 70% of all rifle fire occurs at less tha 100 yards. The probability of hitting a target drops to effectively zero at 500 meters. This was mainly due to intervening terrain, the targets use of cover and concealment and the inability of the shooter to see his target.

Further, the single most inportant factor in obtaining a hit at any range was the time and degree of exposure of the target.

Quoting Hitchman directly, the most telling blow:

"in combat, hits from bullets are incurred at random: the same for missile fragments, which are not 'aimed'...the comparison of hits from rifle bullets with those of fragments shows that the rifle bullet is not actually better directed against vulerable parts of the body."

Addressing the accuracy of the rifle, Hitchman noted that the problem is not with the weapon, but rather the man,

"at all significant ranges, weapon errors are without significance in the man-weapon system....the dispersion of the weapon could be more than double without materially affecting the probability of hitting the target...weapons design standards which seek perfection by making the rifle more accurate (approach zero dispersion)...are not supported by the analysis as genuine military requirements. Errors in aiming have been found to be the greates single factor contributing to the lack of effectiveness of the man-rifle system...[in combat] men who are graded as expert riflemen do not perform satisfactorily at common combat ranges"

Hitchman was not concerned with range shooting. His only interest was shooting under combat coniditions. It is interesting to note that his analysis was completely validated during the ACR tests of the 1980s. The army sought to create a test environment that simulated actual combat as closely as possible. They found the under thes conditions, even expert shooters were unable to shoot anywhere near the level of precision the rifle was capable of..

Hitchman further suggested the solution, addressing the failure of rifle accuracy and the fact that time and exposure were the chief factor in obtaining a hit. His suggestion:

"..either a simultaneous[salvo], or high rate cyclic burst, with the number of rounds per burst automatically set rather than dependant on trgger release. In the...(single barrel burst) design, controlled butation of the rifle muzzle would provide thedesired shot dispersion or pattern; in...(salvo), the scatter would be obtained and controlled by multiple barrels, a mother-daughter type projectile, or projection of missiles in the manner of a shotgun."

Futher studies, Particularly SALVO I&II substantiated Hitchman's concept and led to the specification for the next generation infantry weapon, the SPIW. Unfortunately, Military 'experts' relying on their undertsnding of the importance of long range, precision fire (the very concepts that Hitchman had shown to be false) burdened the SPIW with unrealistic requirements. Also, the technology of the day (1960s) was probably not up to the task.

However, some in the defense establishment were convinced by Hitchman's research. The later ACR program mentioned previously was yet another attempt to build a rifle around the realities of combat shooting. Several designs did very well, but none met the Army's requirement for a 100% inprovement in hit probability over the M-16. The Steyr ACR cam very closer, but the flechettes it fired could not meet the Armies standard for dispersion. The army was still demanding a degree of precision from it's rifles that was totally unnecessary.

The latest salvo to be fired is the XM-29 SABR (OICW). In this case, a computer controlled air bursting munition is used to compensate for aiming errors and to exploit the time and degree of exposure fator.

Combat is a unique environment. Training on the range has little or nothing to do with combat riflery. We should be designing our weapons for the environment they are actually going to be used in, and optimize them for that environment rather than make decisions based on tightly held beliefs that have nothing to do with reality.
 
Surely there is some truth to your comments Corejob.

Yet, at the same time, as an ex-infanteer, I would not have been happy adopting a new weapon LESS accurate than my current one. The FN was good, but the C7 was more accurate, even at longer practical ranges (300m+). In theory, the FN might have been more accurate, in practice, the C7 was for almost every shooter. Even if only for morale reasons, the feeling that you *could* hit something is important. Plus, the 10% of shooting that is required at ranges over 300m, and almost all of the 100m-300m shooting, can really suck when you have an inaccurate weapon.


For every armchair theorist and statistician that sits back and makes decisions based on the 'majority' of cases, I'd like each and every one of them to be forced to confront PERSONALLY the exception case - which Murphy likes to bring up in combat.

I've read quite a few books on the development of US Army and USMC sniper programs. It seems quite evident from the data they collected, that the addition of very accurate weapons and sniper teams to a company around which a specific doctrine is developed allows the few men involved (plus some normal grunt security forces) to attain far higher effective enemy kill rates and an effectiveness out of all proportion to size.

I know you aren't exactly arguing for an *inaccurate* infantry weapon, just a *sufficiently* accurate one. Nor are you necessarily arguing that accuracy has no place (case in point, Marksmen). I'm just saying that accuracy still has a place and I prefer (as someone whose life depends on the sytem) that the weapon be capable of far better shooting than I am or ever might be, not just far better shooting than some average soldier might manage. I'm not sure I like the idea of military hardware endangering my life because it is designed for the mediocre average, especially if I'm not.

As an aside, I agree with you about more short range training necessary, but as a whole, any army doesn't fire enough rounds for its infantry and waaay insufficient amounts for its other troops to maintain high levels of small arms profficiency, which is a heavy duty commitment of time and effort. Marksmen get part of their accuracy, as do SF troops, by a continuous and sizeable investment of time in drills and from firing regularly.
 
Originally posted by kaladorn:
I know you aren't exactly arguing for an *inaccurate* infantry weapon, just a *sufficiently* accurate one. Nor are you necessarily arguing that accuracy has no place (case in point, Marksmen). I'm just saying that accuracy still has a place and I prefer (as someone whose life depends on the sytem) that the weapon be capable of far better shooting than I am or ever might be, not just far better shooting than some average soldier might manage. I'm not sure I like the idea of military hardware endangering my life because it is designed for the mediocre average, especially if I'm not.
The reality of modern combat is that there is very rarely any kind of precision shooting. It is unrealistic to expect hit probability to increase because the weapon is made more accurately. Ideally, the rifle should be designe so as to compemsate for less than ideal combat marksmanship. Hitchman advocated either a salvo firing weapon, or one that fired a burst at a high rate of fire.

The problem is that most shooters are used to thinking in terms of semi-automatic fire and shooting at fixed targets at known ranges. Real combat is about firing busts of automatic fire at moving targets at unknown ranges that use cover and shoot back.

Further, to some extent accuracy and reliability act against each other. Kalishnikov understood this when he designed the AK with loose tolerances. The AK typically is a 5 MOA+ shooter, compared with the M-16 which in military issue usually averages around 2 MOA. Personally, I prefer the AR-15/M-16 as a more accurate rifle, with better ergonomics and better accomodation of add-on features likel optical sights, lights, lasers, etc. But there is a lot to be said for a gun that functions reliably even when neglected in the most unthinkable fashion. And the AK has certainly proved itself to be adequately accurate for close combat.

However, no rifle really meets Hitchman's ideal. Some experimental weapons have, like a few of ther ACRs and SPIWs.

Personally, I think that it is time to totally rethink the concept of the rifle as a general infantry combat weapon. I'd like to see something like the Steyr ACR or prhaps eveen the HK CAWS loaded with long range ammunition like SCMITR flechettes. Replace the rifle with a salvo weapon that is leathal to 500 meters and fires a pattern of projectiles to compensate for aiming errors that happen under the stress of combat.

I still think there is a place for the rifle in the Infantry unit - as a specialist weapon where precision fire is required, and issued to that rare creature that can deliver that prercision fire under the stress of combat.

As an aside, I agree with you about more short range training necessary, but as a whole, any army doesn't fire enough rounds for its infantry and waaay insufficient amounts for its other troops to maintain high levels of small arms profficiency, which is a heavy duty commitment of time and effort. Marksmen get part of their accuracy, as do SF troops, by a continuous and sizeable investment of time in drills and from firing regularly.
Rifle practice continues to be deemphasized because it is becoming more and more irrelavant in modern mechanized combat. Only something like 1 or 2 percent of casualties are produced by small arms. Rifles have become weapons of self defense, used to supress the enemy while you radio for a fire mission.

Western armies realize this, and spend less and less on infantry weapons and infantry training, seeing those dollars as better spent on the weapon systems that really do matter. Personally, I think they do so at their peril.

My own aside:
According to sources on the infantry board, about 90% of all infantry combat in Iraq is at 100 meters or less. Primarily this is due to the urban nature of the combat. Also, at longer ranges, there is a tendency to use vehicle weapons or other assets.

It really shouldn't be surprising, since the average range of infantry rifle combat in the ETO during WWII was only 75 yards.

Bringing this all the way around to Traveller, the canon weapons (at least from CT) are built around the old and outmoded concept of infantry combat still taught today. The gauss rifle has the potential to be an ideal combat weapon as Hitchman suggested. Give it a lighter projectile to reduce recoil, up the velocity to bring up lethality and give it and extremely high rate of fire.

Every time the soldier pulls the trigger, he isn't sending one large, highly lethal projectiles down range. Instead, his is firing a cluster or projectiles, each one is more than sufficiently lethal on its own, but moving as a cloud of projectiles over an area, there is a significantly increased probability of a hit, even against a fleeting target making use of cover and concealment.

Spinkle in a few marksmen with more accurate, sniper type weapons to attack target of opportunity and you'd have a nice lethal mix.
 
Lotsa good info here. Traveller envisions the SMG as a boarding weapon: low velocity slugs to damage flesh but not pressure hulls. Back in the 70s that made sense. Now there are weapon designs that could be superior.
 
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