Warship jump range

[skyth]

Ship: Solar
Class: Solar
Type: Battle Rider
Architect: Skyth
Tech Level: 15

USP
BR-K416JJ3-F99900-000J9-0 MCr 11,624.420 10 KTons
Bat Bear 4 15 Crew: 111
Bat 4 15 TL: 15

Cargo: 4.000 Fuel: 2,800.000 EP: 1,800.000 Agility: 6 Shipboard Security Detail: 10
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 1 x Model/9fib Computer
Substitutions: Y = 28 Z = 40

Architects Fee: MCr 116.244 Cost in Quantity: MCr 9,299.536


Detailed Description

HULL
10,000.000 tons standard, 140,000.000 cubic meters, Close Structure Configuration

CREW
17 Officers, 94 Ratings

ENGINEERING
Jump-1, 6G Manuever, Power plant-18, 1,800.000 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer
1 Model/9fib Backup Computer

HARDPOINTS
Spinal Mount, 5 50-ton bays, 40 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
Meson Gun Spinal Mount (Factor-J), 5 50-ton Missile Bays (Factor-9)

DEFENCES
40 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 4 Batteries (Factor-9), Nuclear Damper (Factor-9), Meson Screen (Factor-9), Armoured Hull (Factor-15)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
2,800.000 Tons Fuel (1 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
63.0 Staterooms, 4.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 11,740.664 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 116.244), MCr 9,299.536 in Quantity

 

[skyth]

Ship: Griffon
Class: Griffon
Type: Heavy Cruiser
Architect: Skyth
Tech Level: 15

USP
CA-P4468J3-C96909-700J7-0 MCr 41,360.100 50 KTons
Bat Bear 8 3 8 1L Crew: 397
Bat A 4 A 1R TL: 15

Cargo: 168.000 Fuel: 24,000.000 EP: 4,000.000 Agility: 4 Shipboard Security Detail: 50 Pulse Lasers
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification
Backups: 2 x Model/9fib Computers

Architects Fee: MCr 413.601 Cost in Quantity: MCr 33,088.080


Detailed Description

HULL
50,000.000 tons standard, 700,000.000 cubic meters, Close Structure Configuration

CREW
40 Officers, 357 Ratings

ENGINEERING
Jump-4, 6G Manuever, Power plant-8, 4,000.000 EP, Agility 4

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer
2 Model/9fib Backup Computers

HARDPOINTS
Spinal Mount, 4 100-ton bays, 450 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
Meson Gun Spinal Mount (Factor-J), 250 Triple Missile Turrets organised into 25 Batteries (Factor-7), 100 Triple Pulse Laser Turrets organised into 10 Batteries (Factor-7)

DEFENCES
4 100-ton Repulsor Bays (Factor-9), 100 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 10 Batteries (Factor-9), Nuclear Damper (Factor-9), Meson Screen (Factor-6), Armoured Hull (Factor-12)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
24,000.000 Tons Fuel (4 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
250.0 Staterooms, 168.000 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 41,773.701 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 413.601), MCr 33,088.080 in Quantity

 

[skyth]

I'll run a battle and get back to y'all...Might take a bit though.

 

[skyth]

Results after round 1:

4 Griffons disabled (3 with no crew, 1 with no power plant). No damage to the Solars (Constellations were in reserve).

I didn't see the point of moving on to the next round.

I think I need a re-design of the Griffons using missile bays...The factor 7 is a major damper on what they can accomplish.

 

[skyth]

*grumbles* Just noticed the Constellations only carry enough fuel for a jump-1...I will have to redesign (Which means they probably can't carry 5 Solars each)...I could have used Tyrants though, which are about the same (Non-jump capable, but only 8ktons)

Would still have roughly the same results I believe.

 

[The Oz]

Plentiful experience has shown that in a battle using straight HG2 rules, the fleet with the most meson guns wins. A battle between two meson gun-armed fleets is like men armed with submachine guns fighting in a small closed room: there is going to be mass annihilation. Even a factor-E meson gun can usually get a mission kill on any size target, as long as the weapon hits and penetrates the defenses.

 

[flykiller]

Plentiful experience has shown that in a battle using straight HG2 rules, the fleet with the most meson guns wins.

my observation as well, at tech 15 and other conditions being equal. at tech 13 and below factor 9 nuclear missile salvos are dominant - this probably accounts for the trillion credit squadron game, mentioned earlier, reaching the conclusion that battleships are more survivable than riders. at tech 15 riders dominate, for various reasons that should be obvious to anyone who studies the matter.

A battle between two meson gun-armed fleets is like men armed with submachine guns fighting in a small closed room: there is going to be mass annihilation.

yep. and it will happen so fast that even a fleet consisting of jump-capable battleships trying to jump away rather than fight will get torn up very badly before they can escape. the distinction between jump-capable and not-jump-capable fades.

 

[The Oz]

Yah, I did forget the TL differences.

 

[skyth]

With high Armor values, the only weapons that can do damage in HG are Mesons, Spinal PA's, Nuclear missiles, and Pulse Lasers.
Non-spinal Mesons can't pen a decent meson screen.

I disagree with the assessment that

A battle between two meson gun-armed fleets is like men armed with submachine guns fighting in a small closed room: there is going to be mass annihilation. Even a factor-E meson gun can usually get a mission kill on any size target, as long as the weapon hits and penetrates the defenses.

In the battle I ran (Granted, only J-Mesons), none of the Solars were damaged in the slightest. There were two pulse laser hits, one nuclear missile hit, and 2 meson hits. None of the Mesons penned the meson screens though. With J being the most common (In my experience) TL 15 Meson (I usually only use J or T's. Either the smallest that packs the best punch, or the biggest), it's kind of telling.

Granted, if you have a lot of T guns, the results might be different.

One thing I do believe, however, is that Jump-2 warships can compete with Battleriders on a credit to credit ratio. If you need to have jump-4 for a warship, that really limits the offensive and defensive capabilities (More Defensive than offensive) of the ship.

 

[flykiller]

if strategic mobility is not a factor, and the only consideration is the hg2 battlespace, then yes, J4 is a waste of dtonnage. my experience though is that a properly designed fleet can accomodate J4, good offense, and good defense.

enjoy your games, I had a lot of fun with mine.

 

[The Oz]

Results after round 1:

4 Griffons disabled (3 with no crew, 1 with no power plant). No damage to the Solars (Constellations were in reserve).

I didn't see the point of moving on to the next round.

I think I need a re-design of the Griffons using missile bays...The factor 7 is a major damper on what they can accomplish.

I think you need a redesign of your Griffons using f-9 meson screens. You had them with only f-6 screens, which is a major disadvantage vs. the smaller battleriders.

That said, the Solars get one advantage from their size, having no "to-hit" modifier since they are so small.

 

[skyth]

I think you need a redesign of your Griffons using f-9 meson screens. You had them with only f-6 screens, which is a major disadvantage vs. the smaller battleriders.

That said, the Solars get one advantage from their size, having no "to-hit" modifier since they are so small.

I couldn't find a way to get a 9 Meson screen on the Griffons and keep them viable otherwise. I did design a 60k dton Griffon II that has a 7 screen.

 

[The Oz]

Here's a 19.9kton light cruiser to try. It's only Jump-3, but I think that jump-4 ships have to give up too much defense to fight against battle riders.

Ship: Tester
Class: TL15 CL
Type: Light Cruiser
Architect: Osmanski
Tech Level: 15

USP
         CL-K136DJ3-B89900-000J7-0 MCr 19,653.140 19.9 KTons
Bat Bear             1        1J   Crew: 167
Bat                  1        1J   TL: 15

Cargo: 43.000 Fuel: 8,557.000 EP: 2,587.000 Agility: 6 Marines: 10
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 196.531   Cost in Quantity: MCr 15,722.512

 

[skyth]

It's only Jump-3, but I think that jump-4 ships have to give up too much defense to fight against battle riders.

I agree with you...Thus the point
of me starting this thread.

 

[The Oz]

I agree with you...Thus the point
of me starting this thread.

Yah. I think the so-called Imperial standard of J-4 and 6-G is just not practical for front-line warships. Especially given the "new" strategy of defending only heavily fortified planets as "islands of resistance" while waiting for the depot-based forces to come and eject any invaders. The front-line fleets need to be battleships with heavy defenses so they can fight without taking too many losses and then jump away to get repaired and do it all over again.

The depot-based forces need the high jump capacity so they can get there more quickly. Since they are the offensive arm of the Fleet they can and should be battleriders to maximize firepower delivery and strategic speed.

It would be an interesting experiment to set up a few games of Fifth Frontier War allowing both sides to choose the setup of their squadrons, instead of the random selection in the rules. Would it be better to have the high-jump forces up front, or coming in from Corridor? What about the Zhos? Should they concentrate their J-4 squadrons for the Efate attack, or use them to cross the Abyss in Lanth subsector?

 

[far-trader]

Well the defender doesn't even need jump, until the attacker goes around the systems with the monitors and hits you behind your front lines. Then you need to get there asap or you have lost.

That's the thing about jump capable ships. There are no front lines. No border that needs to be broken in order to strike at your heart. No vulnerable supply line in real space (generally*) that needs to be established and protected.

* you can manage with deep space resupply, fuel being the biggest thing, so taking and defending gas giants would seem paramount but not necessarily vital, planets won't play much of a role in interstellar wars, they are the prize but only mean anything after the fighting, planetary defense would mean as much anyway (warships stay clear, maybe send in marines if they won't surrender), siege and blockade planets until they surrender

Hence ALL fleets need to be mobile (high jump) to defend. You have to be able to go where the enemy has chosen to make the front, and quickly. It kind of turns defense on it's head.

Or that might be the ale talking It's medicinal, I've got a nasty sore throat and it helps (and tastes better than tea ). I should get some sleep too

 

[The Oz]

I don't agree that all defenders need high jump capacity. If I'm defending, there are certain points that I have to defend (or my enemy has to attack). Since I =am= defending I should be able to start out holding those points in strength, and I can just park my low-jump fleets right there and wait for the enemy to show up. Since he has to come to me, I can move any of my high-jump forces as reinforcements towards the points being threatened.

So there are high-jump forces needed for the defense, but they are more in the nature of a quick reaction force or counter-attack fleet, not my entire defensive fleet.

 

[dccarles]

I'm going to put in a good word here for high jump.

Tactically, adding an extra parsec of jump fuel is dangerous. At TL 14+, an extra jump factor is worth 11 factors of armour. That's huge. (At TL 15, it's not such a big issue because your power plant is so small you can afford to put on extra armour, but still.)

Strategically, though, it allows local concentration of force. Since High Guard is tactical game, this point often gets overlooked. Not only can you have your defending fleet spread out more, the enemy has to defend in greater depth.

Until we have a good (meaning playable) strategic/operational combat system, we really can't assess the usefulness of additional fuel com pared to armour.


--Devin

 

[flykiller]

Especially given the "new" strategy of defending only heavily fortified planets as "islands of resistance" while waiting for the depot-based forces to come and eject any invaders.

a sure defeat in the making. it could be months before any reinforcements arrive, even if enemy activity doesn't delay them. in the meantime the enemy is free to maneuver, set up bases at will, concentrate and attack at leisure.

That's the thing about jump capable ships. There are no front lines ... Hence ALL fleets need to be mobile (high jump) to defend ... Since High Guard is tactical game, this point often gets overlooked.

yep.

You have to be able to go where the enemy has chosen to make the front, and quickly.

nope. it allows _you_ to choose where the front is. it is attack that turns defense on its head.

 

[flykiller]

Until we have a good (meaning playable) strategic/operational combat system ...

"Grand High Admiral" will accomodate anything at all that you have in mind.

or, if you want to retain the lbb5 abstract approach and use hg2 exclusively, all that needs to be done is to add a jump transit feature between multiple designated hg2 battlespaces (such as jewell, cronor, etc). wouldn't take much.