Was CT any better than T5 when it first came out.
- Thread starter Spaceresearcher
- Start date
The stumbling block in CT that kept my high school group (I graduated in '78) from ever considering play was the lack of an experience system. Our players liked campaigns, and said CT felt more like something designed for one-off play sessions where you had a different character every time.
They didn't care about accumulating ephemera like equipment, they wanted to get better at their jobs over time, and they didn't see CT offering that opportunity.
They didn't care about accumulating ephemera like equipment, they wanted to get better at their jobs over time, and they didn't see CT offering that opportunity.
That is weird how some players insist on starting out as a farm boy (see Star Wars) and then progressing through skills until they are unbeatable, while some players want to start with a character who's already an adventurer (see Mad Max, Terminator, Aliens, Outland, Robocop).
I was late to Traveller. Played CT in the early '90s, knew about MT but never got into it. Bought NE box set cos it looked great and was full of stuff (hated the system and wasn't hot on much of the background, Star Vikings, RCES [pronounced 'arses']...). Because of NE I gave T4 a wide berth.
Bought the Long Books but rapidly discovered I hated reading them, too floppy.
Became an ebay warrior and amassed a collection of LBBs, TTB, TTA etc.
I always loved CTs simplicity and flexibility, and still found it attractive many years after it had been out to pasture. There are many other sci-fi rpgs that I would happily play to enjoy specific subgenres, Cyberpunk 2020, SLA Industries, but I always thought CT was best for 'anything can happen' sci-fi.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
There was an experience system in LBB2.
It gives skills at almost the same rate as character generation.
Classic Traveller has an elegance and approachability that hasn't been matched by any other edition of Traveller that I've played, or by any other RPG system I've encountered.
Now, that doesn't mean that I think it was perfect. No rules system is. But the three basic books were clear and concise, and cleanly laid out. It was easy to comprehend what the system was all about and how the pieces fit together, and easy to find what you needed during play. Your mileage may vary, but for me these are essential attributes of a good system. Nifty features don't do you much good if they are undiscoverable with reasonable effort.
The basic CT rules didn't cover everything, but they captured so much of the essence of the genre in a such a small space. It was very impressive. They provided a framework/toolkit to play any sort of SF scenario you wanted. Not an exhaustive treatment, but what was there was nimble and didn't get in the way of play.
The bottom line for me is, reading the CT rules got my imagination fired up about the possibilities, and they were accessible enough for me to pick up the dice and start playing immediately. No other RPG system, Traveller or otherwise, has ever combined those two features for me.
Now, that doesn't mean that I think it was perfect. No rules system is. But the three basic books were clear and concise, and cleanly laid out. It was easy to comprehend what the system was all about and how the pieces fit together, and easy to find what you needed during play. Your mileage may vary, but for me these are essential attributes of a good system. Nifty features don't do you much good if they are undiscoverable with reasonable effort.
The basic CT rules didn't cover everything, but they captured so much of the essence of the genre in a such a small space. It was very impressive. They provided a framework/toolkit to play any sort of SF scenario you wanted. Not an exhaustive treatment, but what was there was nimble and didn't get in the way of play.
The bottom line for me is, reading the CT rules got my imagination fired up about the possibilities, and they were accessible enough for me to pick up the dice and start playing immediately. No other RPG system, Traveller or otherwise, has ever combined those two features for me.
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Otto Harkaman
SOC-12
Too bad I don't have them any more but I bought the LBB in '77 in a box set.
Before that I had a copy of Imperium by Conflict Games
I was at a high school boarding school and we weren't allowed TVs at that time so we played the heck out of boardgames. Imperium was a big favorite. When I was home in the summer I played D&D with a group weekly. I think a lot of what sold me at first on GDW Traveller was the aesthetics of the box and book covers. Also obvious this was the height of the "Star Wars" craze and we all wanted to play the movie. It just spoke to me of seriousness, this is a serious space rpg not orcs and trolls stuff. Contrast it with the AD&D hardcover books at that time.
There was a great disappointment that there were no levels of experience and I think my gaming group always dreamed of somehow merging Traveller with AD&D. I do remember spending hours generating characters in CT but I never could figure out space combat. I realize now it was broken and not really solid gaming rules. I didn't have the money nor could I find "Mayday" at that time, might have been out of print. I still have as yet to "play" space combat in Traveller. I've tried, I posted a year or two ago my attempt to use the Mayday vassal gamebox to play but there are just too many vague rules. Keeping track of missiles, computer programs etc just gets overwhelming.
Before that I had a copy of Imperium by Conflict Games
I was at a high school boarding school and we weren't allowed TVs at that time so we played the heck out of boardgames. Imperium was a big favorite. When I was home in the summer I played D&D with a group weekly. I think a lot of what sold me at first on GDW Traveller was the aesthetics of the box and book covers. Also obvious this was the height of the "Star Wars" craze and we all wanted to play the movie. It just spoke to me of seriousness, this is a serious space rpg not orcs and trolls stuff. Contrast it with the AD&D hardcover books at that time.
There was a great disappointment that there were no levels of experience and I think my gaming group always dreamed of somehow merging Traveller with AD&D. I do remember spending hours generating characters in CT but I never could figure out space combat. I realize now it was broken and not really solid gaming rules. I didn't have the money nor could I find "Mayday" at that time, might have been out of print. I still have as yet to "play" space combat in Traveller. I've tried, I posted a year or two ago my attempt to use the Mayday vassal gamebox to play but there are just too many vague rules. Keeping track of missiles, computer programs etc just gets overwhelming.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Yeah, what HE said...
CT was a product of its time and wouldn't have been great had it come out in that form later. The first adventures were dungeon crawls. The advanced character generation systems gradually improved over Books 4-7. Mercenary wasn't that good originally. Note how they all got improved in MT.
T5 is based on this long heritage and will probably evolve similarly but I think it tried to do too much all at once in the Core Rules.
T5 is based on this long heritage and will probably evolve similarly but I think it tried to do too much all at once in the Core Rules.
Hi,
Thanks for the clarification. One thing that really threw me off was when I picked up a copy of someone else's LBBs and couldn't find some rules that I knew were in my copy at home.
What can I say, I got involved with the design and writing of Space Opera *because* Traveller just didn't work for me. (I can't for certain speak for the other writers, of course - that's only my personal opinion and recollection - but having spent some time with Ed Simbalist way back, I am pretty sure he felt much the same).
(Of course, Space Opera was FAR from being perfect. But I like to think, and I know Ed did, that the technology and societies that we created were, in the first instance, at least advanced and mostly believable by the standards of the early 1980s, and that the societies were much more believable than the Imperium ever was ... but, hey, it never sold as well as Traveller did, so you can probably discount that opinion ;-)
It was too limited. The whole idea of the Imperium, even the little description that was actually provided in 1st Edition CTrav, #1-3, was downright unbelievably silly ... even given the supposed technological limits that supposedly were the reason for it.
The technology? It wasn't even advanced for the 1960's, let alone the 1970's, and has really never improved, overall, substantially - Stryker and Fire, Fusion and Steel notwithstanding (they improve only relatively unimportant subsets, IMO - mainly vehicles, and then, only a bit).
I won't comment on the current version, except to say that I don't see myself ever playing it (and, despite my disappointment, I both ran and played CTRav games, and enjoyed them, and played some MTrav, though that was aborted because the 1st Edition was unplayable as printed, and here, in the wilds of Oz, the errata took their own sweet time in arriving ... TNE was the best game *system*, but still stank as far as technology and the believability of the background was concerned ... Virus was even stupider than the idea of a Feudal Imperium spanning the stars, T4 was OK, background still being problematic) or even really using much of it.
There's nothing wrong with it, per se, except that it needed a firm editorial hand, the excision of at least 300 pages of useless rules for useless things (I mean, seriously, who actually needs rules for siblings and offspring in the *Core Rules* of a game system?), some comprehensive playtesting that was actually listened to, some comprehensive explanations for lots of things, and some comprehensive proof reading by someone not in the inner circle at a point in time where their corrections could be added to the final effort.
I guess that's called damning it with faint praise. But it could have been *so* much better, even allowing for the still dated for the 1960's technology and silly background ... it could have been something that Traveller never was*, as written, anyway, a real toolbox for creating a wide variety of SF adventures.
* (Sure, you *could* house rule and write scads and scads of additional material for CTRav to make it something else ... and, in a sense, that's what its competitors, like Space Opera, were doing ... but as a stand alone game, it wasn't really all that modifiable as it was written ... YMMV).
I've showed T5 to my gaming group, including our Traveller Guru, and they (and he, especially) were astounded - at how unusable it was *in its present form*.
He was really astounded at the lack of any serious attempt to provide rules use examples, amongst many other things.
That's my .02 Pacific pesos worth, FWIW, and, of course, YMMV ... and probably does, and probably violently, too
Phil McGregor
(Of course, Space Opera was FAR from being perfect. But I like to think, and I know Ed did, that the technology and societies that we created were, in the first instance, at least advanced and mostly believable by the standards of the early 1980s, and that the societies were much more believable than the Imperium ever was ... but, hey, it never sold as well as Traveller did, so you can probably discount that opinion ;-)
It was too limited. The whole idea of the Imperium, even the little description that was actually provided in 1st Edition CTrav, #1-3, was downright unbelievably silly ... even given the supposed technological limits that supposedly were the reason for it.
The technology? It wasn't even advanced for the 1960's, let alone the 1970's, and has really never improved, overall, substantially - Stryker and Fire, Fusion and Steel notwithstanding (they improve only relatively unimportant subsets, IMO - mainly vehicles, and then, only a bit).
I won't comment on the current version, except to say that I don't see myself ever playing it (and, despite my disappointment, I both ran and played CTRav games, and enjoyed them, and played some MTrav, though that was aborted because the 1st Edition was unplayable as printed, and here, in the wilds of Oz, the errata took their own sweet time in arriving ... TNE was the best game *system*, but still stank as far as technology and the believability of the background was concerned ... Virus was even stupider than the idea of a Feudal Imperium spanning the stars, T4 was OK, background still being problematic) or even really using much of it.
There's nothing wrong with it, per se, except that it needed a firm editorial hand, the excision of at least 300 pages of useless rules for useless things (I mean, seriously, who actually needs rules for siblings and offspring in the *Core Rules* of a game system?), some comprehensive playtesting that was actually listened to, some comprehensive explanations for lots of things, and some comprehensive proof reading by someone not in the inner circle at a point in time where their corrections could be added to the final effort.
I guess that's called damning it with faint praise. But it could have been *so* much better, even allowing for the still dated for the 1960's technology and silly background ... it could have been something that Traveller never was*, as written, anyway, a real toolbox for creating a wide variety of SF adventures.
* (Sure, you *could* house rule and write scads and scads of additional material for CTRav to make it something else ... and, in a sense, that's what its competitors, like Space Opera, were doing ... but as a stand alone game, it wasn't really all that modifiable as it was written ... YMMV).
I've showed T5 to my gaming group, including our Traveller Guru, and they (and he, especially) were astounded - at how unusable it was *in its present form*.
He was really astounded at the lack of any serious attempt to provide rules use examples, amongst many other things.
That's my .02 Pacific pesos worth, FWIW, and, of course, YMMV ... and probably does, and probably violently, too
Phil McGregor
Sadly, never likely to happen. If Space Opera 2 ever occurs, in itself not likely for business reasons rather than writing/design ones, it would be unlikely to include the original background races (for copyright reasons amongst others).
Still, glad you liked it
Otto Harkaman
SOC-12
I had most of the Space Opera books at one time. I loved the background source material but maybe because I was too young the character generation and space combat was beyond me to ever understand.
The more I think about it the only game that I was ever able to actually play space combat was Star Fleet Battles. And that I was lucky to have started out with the original game in a ziplock bag.
Gosh I loved the ziplock bag games! Anyways I enjoyed playing that a lot with friends. But of course its popularity and success quickly reached epic proportions and I had to have all the supplements making it unplayable because I had too much stuff.
The more I think about it the only game that I was ever able to actually play space combat was Star Fleet Battles. And that I was lucky to have started out with the original game in a ziplock bag.
Gosh I loved the ziplock bag games! Anyways I enjoyed playing that a lot with friends. But of course its popularity and success quickly reached epic proportions and I had to have all the supplements making it unplayable because I had too much stuff.
Ditto! I fondly remember Space Opera and my collection lacks only one thing, Vault of the Nier Queyon.
Sadly, never likely to happen. If Space Opera 2 ever occurs, in itself not likely for business reasons rather than writing/design ones, it would be unlikely to include the original background races (for copyright reasons amongst others).
Still, glad you liked it
I was hoping you might have some unreleased scripts for them somewhere!
I would gladly purchase Space Opera 2, I'm sure it would be Awesome even limited by CR.
Those come up on Ebay quite a bit, that's how I "completed" my set.
I haven't been to eBay since I spent about 18 months there in the late 90s, buying up everything I could find to "complete" my Traveller wish-list. I have about 12 shelf-feet for just the one game now...plus another two inches for the Monolith, of course.
There are some StarAtlases that even *I* don't have. Australia, way back, was the arse end of the Universe (Traveller AND Space Opera, both
and we didn't always get things in the (few) local game shops. Even though, theoretically, as co-author, I was supposed to get one of everything SO, the last few items I never did get.As for Space Opera 2, the problem is that Scott Bizar owns (or thinks he does, I haven't got the money to test his theory in court ... especially as he may well be right!) the *name*. I believe, from conversations with Ed Simbalist not long before he died, that he wanted, back then a FIVE FIGURE sum just for the name, and that ALL the existing stock of all SO books be purchased on top of that. Didn't have a spare US$10,000+ then, and still don't ... and even if I did, it wouldn't make economic sense to pay that sort of money unless, maybe, you were a *really* big company who could market the game on a large scale. Me? I'm just a one man operation ... so it would be pointless.
Still, now that I'm more or less retired (2 JAN 14, but on sabbatical till then!), I may have the time to pitch something to Scott that he might agree to for not too outrageous a cut of the profits, if any. But he doesn't have any more money to market it than I do, as I understand it ... so it would be a PoD or PDF only product. Unless Kickstarter ever allows Aussies to run one without requiring us to jump through hoops to get a US IRS ITIN and to have a US bank account and, presumably, charge us US taxes for products of Australia
Don't hold your breath, in other words, unless you look good in blue and black ;-)
Phil
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
I had most of the Space Opera books at one time. I loved the background source material but maybe because I was too young the character generation and space combat was beyond me to ever understand.
The more I think about it the only game that I was ever able to actually play space combat was Star Fleet Battles. And that I was lucky to have started out with the original game in a ziplock bag.
Gosh I loved the ziplock bag games! Anyways I enjoyed playing that a lot with friends. But of course its popularity and success quickly reached epic proportions and I had to have all the supplements making it unplayable because I had too much stuff.
My first SFB games were from the ziplock baggies as well. Good days, when Star Fleet was simple and not full of lawyers...
