Rules Only: Weapon damage changes?

[BlindGuy]

Hi All,

I'm jus curious if anyone ever gave a rationale for the changes in the way weapon damage was handled between CT 77 and later editions. It's arguably simpler to roll x number of dice rather than roll and add, but it seems to make weapons a bit similar to one another. Is this covered in a JTAS article somewhere?

 

[mike wightman]

I was never happy with weapons that could score minus damage on a successful hit. I much prefer the 81 change to whole dice.

 

[jec10]

I was never happy with weapons that could score minus damage on a successful hit. I much prefer the 81 change to whole dice.

This.

 

[kilemall]

Makes it easier to spread the damage around the stats.

 

[Supplement Four]

RE: Minus Damage.

I'm OK with it. Most weapons in Book 1 will knock a target unconscious with a Minor Wound instead of inflicting Serious Wounds or damage enough to kill (as you would expect of gunshot wounds).

I'll bet this was choice made by the designers to help keep PCs alive. They get hit, they go unconscious, and they are healed completely within half an hour if medical treatment is available. That's certainly not what one would expect, on average, from a gunshot wound or blade stab or cut.

Damage in Classic Traveller is abstract (not unlike the game's rpg counterpart, D&D). There's no real wound effect until one physical stat goes to zero, and even then, it's as just described--unconscious Minor Wound completely healed in half an hour with the help of a medic.

It takes two stats going to zero to resemble anything like a real gunshot wound, as it is two physicals at zero that signifies a Serious Wound (that takes much longer to heal than half an hour).

If you think about it, a weapon like an SMG might have an autohit, but this doesn't mean the damage is automatic. If the two rolls are low, and no physical stats go to zero, then the autohit can't mean that a character has been shot by gunfire. No real consequences are placed upon the character. The target isn't really wounded. Even his lowered physical stats don't count as being lowered when it comes to task checks.

So, a hit like that must be a graze.

In the same light, I can see negative damage. It's a near miss.

 

[creativehum]

I agree with most of what S4 posts. I'm drawn to the '77 rules these days because of the variety of the damage. And it's easy to do the subtraction from the dice... just remove pips from the damage dice sitting on the table (working from lost rolled dice first) and you quickly find out the resulting damage dice.

A couple of points, however, regarding damage and healing as S4 states it.

Per the rules:

If a single characteristic is knocked to zero, then consciousness is knocked to zero after ten minutes. And yes, if you have a Medic and a medkit you characteristics will go back up to full in about thirty minutes. But without that medic and medkit recovery of characteristics will take three full days. And there will be times a PC is without a medic and medkit at hand. So it kind of a serious matter.

If two characteristics go to zero both a character with Medic-3 and a medical facility of some kind are required for recovery. No recovery is possible without these elements. (Not always easy to get!) Per the CT Errata the recovery time with a Medic-3 and medical facility available is 5D6 days.

But here is the important part (and I suspect it is a rule lots of people glossed over -- perhaps for good reason): Characteristics that are lowered because of wounds are rounded to half way between the damaged value and full value until recovery takes place. And these lowered characteristic values are the values used for weapons and skills.

I always assumed this in the rules. But the CT Errata clarifies this:

Page 34, Effects of Characteristics (clarification and omission): Wounds do not affect characteristics during a single combat as they are used to influence blows, swings, or shots. When a character is out of combat and has wounds applied, the resulting wounded levels do apply to any future combats after receiving such wounds. The intention of this rule was to not slow the game down during a combat to deal with such changes. The intention was not that already wounded characters could operate in future combats prior to recovery (or even treatment) as if they were uninjured.

So, we know that if your PC's STR or DEX drops below the requirements for -DM penalties your PC will be worse with those weapons until recovery takes place.

I extrapolate from that that other issues involving STR, DEX, or END are also affected until recovery takes place.

***

Finally, I tend to see the issue of damage in Classic Traveller as Effective Damage. Whether or not one "hits" is not what the Combat Throw is about. Along with the Damage roll it is how much Effective Damage was done. Missing a Combat Throw might mean the character is "hit" but his armor absorbed the damage and no damage got through. A successful Combat Throw with a carbine might mean the bullet definitely hit the target... but glances off a the armor or grazed a hand or what have you, for a Damage of 0. (There is, of course, no negative damage. Just a damage of 0.)

Thus, at least in my reading, wounds are a really big deal. And having a variety of results based on different weapon types makes more sense to me.

 

[mike wightman]

I still don't like rolling a successful hit and then finding I have done no damage or negative damage.
Solution:
any successful hit does a minimum of 1 point of damage per damage die rolled

 

[Supplement Four]

If a single characteristic is knocked to zero, then consciousness is knocked to zero after ten minutes. And yes, if you have a Medic and a medkit you characteristics will go back up to full in about thirty minutes. But without that medic and medkit recovery of characteristics will take three full days. And there will be times a PC is without a medic and medkit at hand. So it kind of a serious matter.

I'm thinking twisted ankle, or a decent bruise--something that will be a problem without treatment for a day or three but not a Serious Wound. A gunshot wound or a cut/stab, broken bones, or worse, like punctured lungs are Serious Wounds.

Just my take.

And these lowered characteristic values are the values used for weapons and skills.

I always assumed this in the rules. But the CT Errata clarifies this:

Interesting. And, a good catch. :coffeegulp:

It's not super easy to get there, though, without the errata, since damage to stats doesn't effect skill rolls normally.

I can see it, and I like that errata rule. I think this reinforces my assertion above about Minor and Serious wounds, too. A gunshot wound (not a graze) is an attack with damage that makes two physical stats go to zero. Damage other than that is a Minor Wound--something that will heal completely in half an hour with medical help or in three days without medical help.

Whether or not one "hits" is not what the Combat Throw is about. Along with the Damage roll it is how much Effective Damage was done.

Exactly. You've got to look at the effects of the attack. A successful attack with an autopistol does not mean the character was shot.

Damage is abstract.

This is very similar to D&D (I'm thinking of AD&D--what competed with Traveller when I first started playing). A longsword does 1d8 damage, and maximum damage may be rolled against a foe with 60 hit points. Does that mean the attacker skewered his foe with his longsword? No. The foe is completely healthy with 52 hit points remaining.

The same abstract idea applies with an autohit from an SMG that fails to score enough damage reduce the target with one physical stat at zero. Even if one physical does go to zero with that SMG damage, if two physicals don't go to zero, we're still talking about a minor wound which can't be a gunshot wound (a graze at the most).

I still don't like rolling a successful hit and then finding I have done no damage or negative damage.

I can understand that. But, it's not too different from rolling autofire on a target and not reducing any physical stat to zero. Unlikely, but it happens.

Solution:
any successful hit does a minimum of 1 point of damage per damage die rolled

A good call if you want a truly deadly game. Traveller characters have few "hit points" though. I think I agree with the CT designers, and by experience of play, I think the balance between deadliness and fun play-ability is balanced pretty well.





THE FIRST BLOOD RULE

If I had to criticize CT, it would be a situation where a PC with high physical stats has no real fear of a foe with, say, an autopistol, thinking that a successful attack can't mathematically reduce the target to even one stat at zero.

Of course, that's why the first blood rule exists, right? All unarmored PCs, no matter their physical stats, fear the the idea of all damage being placed randomly on one stat.

And, if the PC survives that, then his stats are reduced so that damage after the first hit is feared because the character no longer has high stats after taking the first blood damage.

 

[creativehum]

I'm thinking twisted ankle, or a decent bruise--something that will be a problem without treatment for a day or three but not a Serious Wound. A gunshot wound or a cut/stab, broken bones, or worse, like punctured lungs are Serious Wounds.

Just my take.

This isn't me arguing against your position (we should all interpret these rules as we wish), but offering my take:

For me if one stat goes down to zero a character is still unconscious for ten minutes. Whatever the trauma is, it has to be serious enough to knock someone out, and require medical attention or three days of rest. (Not just three days, but three days of rest) to recover.)

The minor wounds you are talking about are wounds that (as I read it, and it may not be how you read it) knock down characteristics, but never drop any characteristic to zero. Medical attention or three days rest is still required, but the character a) never dropped unconscious, and b) the characteristic reduction is simply not as dramatic as if the the characteristic dropped to zero.

As the CT Errata states:

Wounding and Death, fourth paragraph (clarification and addition): Characters who are wounded when a combat ends but never go unconscious (because no characteristic ever is reduced to zero) have their characteristics reset to halfway between the wounded and full strength values (round fractional characteristics down). The individual is considered to have sustained minor wounds. For example, a character with a strength of 8 who is wounded to a strength of 4 (and remains conscious throughout the combat) becomes strength 6 at the end of the combat and remains so until recovered. A return to full strength for the character requires medical attention (30 minutes with a medical kit and an individual with at least medical-1 skill) or three days of rest.

For myself, this is the kind of situation you are describing above. And, again for myself, I'd make the "rest" requirements lighter than those of the wounds that drove a characteristic to zero.

THE FIRST BLOOD RULE

If I had to criticize CT, it would be a situation where a PC with high physical stats has no real fear of a foe with, say, an autopistol, thinking that a successful attack can't mathematically reduce the target to even one stat at zero.

Of course, that's why the first blood rule exists, right? All unarmored PCs, no matter their physical stats, fear the the idea of all damage being placed randomly on one stat.

And, if the PC survives that, then his stats are reduced so that damage after the first hit is feared because the character no longer has high stats after taking the first blood damage.

I agree. Ultimately its an abstraction for an RPG, and so at some point the abstraction is going to break down if we try to map it to 1:1 reality. So while certain PCs might not fear death from certain weapons, the threat of being knocked unconscious for 10 minutes is still a solid threat enough to make going up goes weapons dangerous.

 

[Axe]

Solely for curiosity's sake, I've wondered why the damage for weapons was changed. I like the weapon diversity with the subtractions, but, I like easier numbers without the subtractions.


On the surface, it appears Traveller was made to be slightly more deadly in some instances. A couple of examples:

'77 Body Pistol damage 3D-8 deals between 2 and 3 points of damage per hit on average.
'81 (correct on page 17, not on page 47), TTB (correct on page 25, not on page 46), the Body Pistol damage is 2D, dealing an average of 7 points of damage per hit.

'77 Revolver damage 3D-3 is between 7 and 8 points of damage per hit on average.
'81/TTB/Starter Revolver damage 3D deals between 10 and 11 points of damage per hit on average.



How many of us jumped (no pun intended) from D&D to Traveller and started subtracting damage the D&D way, from a big pot of hit points (Str+Dex+End)? Given the different way Traveller deals with damage, I find the incorrect combat example for Adventurer Two to be a hoot. (TTB/Starter)





Edit : From the CT Errata Compendium thread, post #494:


*A recap: Adventurer Two's permanent UPP is 777777. The attacker rolls 6, 3, 4. Again, because this is Two's first wounding of the combat, all hits are applied against one characteristic (a die roll applies them against his strength). Adventurer Two's strength is reduced to 0, absorbing the first die (6) and 1 hit from the second (second die is left with 2 remaining hits; temporary UPP is now 077777); the remaining hits from the second die (2 hits) and all of the third die (still 4 hits) are applied randomly to his other two physical characteristics (two more die rolls apply 2 hits to endurance (7-2=5; temporary UPP is now 075777) and 4 hits to dexterity (7-4=3)). Two's temporary UPP is now 035777; he is unconscious.

 

[Supplement Four]

Solely for curiosity's sake, I've wondered why the damage for weapons was changed. I like the weapon diversity with the subtractions, but, I like easier numbers without the subtractions.

My guess is that it was just easier with full dice, sans the math, making for a cleaner, easier to use game system.

 

[ddamant]

The effect of this interesting in that damage of 0 or less had no effect. An interesting effect which potentially could save a wounded character from death sans good fortune.

 

[Supplement Four]

The effect of this interesting in that damage of 0 or less had no effect. An interesting effect which potentially could save a wounded character from death sans good fortune.

Yep. Again, it's an abstract damage system. A successful attack throw with an autopistol does not mean that the target was shot. It could mean the target was grazed, instead. Or, it could mean that the autopistol shot missed the target but impacted into the brick wall next to the target, spraying sharp brick shrapnel at the target.

Since the system is abstract, we have to look at the effect of the attack--the damage done--when we want to reason out what happened to the target. By the rules, a serious gunshot wound is one that happens when the target has two physical attributes reduced to zero.

This topic comes up from time to time. In fact, it was discussed in THIS THREAD.

 

[mike wightman]

Call me old fashioned but when I roll to hit and get a result that says I hit then I expect the target to take some effect - even if it is a zero damage graze.

I can live with that.

What I can not accept is rolling to hit and scoring negative damage; do I heal the target, grant them an adrenaline rush that shrugs off pain and previous wound, hypes their system so temporarily they have a Str of 14?

This is one of the reasons I prefer a whole dice damage system and armour as damage reduction as an option - as we got in AHL and Striker.

Nothing will convince me that the CT damage dice system worked as intended, since it was changed for revised edition, Snapshot, AHL and Striker.

 

[ddamant]

At negative damage from a strike the target simply suffered no damage. Consider it a near miss or a graze or the proverbial "dodged a bullet".

 

[mike wightman]

At negative damage from a strike the target simply suffered no damage. Consider it a near miss or a graze or the proverbial "dodged a bullet".

But I clearly rolled a result that was a hit, not a near miss. And the rules do not say what happens if the damage is negative.

I know I am pedantically nit picking, but I really do prefer whole damage dice.

 

[ddamant]

It was fiddly to be sure. I can see why it was removed.

 

[mike wightman]

I take aim and the devious Zho and roll a 12.

Woop, bullseye.

'Sorry' says the referee your damage roll means you missed.

Why did I bother rolling to hit then?

It's abstract

It's cobblers - leaves game.

I paraphrase a real event many moons ago - the words were somewhat stronger than cobblers and the discussion lasted quite a bit longer.

I still have the 77 edition LBB1 with pencilled out weapon damages, replacing them with a dice range that gives similar results but a minimum damage of 1. One of our first ever house rules - not to mention it forced learning probability, damn that Traveller game and its teaching of science and maths

 

[Supplement Four]

I take aim and the devious Zho and roll a 12.

Woop, bullseye.

'Sorry' says the referee your damage roll means you missed.

Why did I bother rolling to hit then?

It's abstract

It's cobblers - leaves game.

I paraphrase a real event many moons ago - the words were somewhat stronger than cobblers and the discussion lasted quite a bit longer.

I guess that same player would have a problem, back then, with AD&D then, too?

Player: I rolled a 20--a perfect hit--with my longsword!

DM: You swing, and the Ogre slipped to the side, dodging your blow at the last minute! The big guy is a lot more agile that you thought.

Player: Wait a minute! I rolled a 20! And, I rolled maximum damage!

DM: I know, but the Orgre still has 12 hit points after taking the damage. You notice that he's breathing heavier though!

Player: Why did I bother to hit then?

DM: It's abstract.

Player: This is bonkers (what the hell is cobblers?) - leaves game.

 

[mike wightman]

Lol, that is not a very good rebuttal. Your description of the combat is off, since the 8 points of damage would be a noticeable slice to the ogre, two more solid hits like that and it is down.

But yes, I have read Gygax's description of what hit points and hit point loss represents.

If I hit a 20hp ogre for 8 points of damage in AD&D I'm pretty happy. Even if I roll a 1 on the damage after rolling the 20 to hit at least I have done something.

Rolling successfully hit and then doing nothing is cobblers.

You are not going to convince me otherwise.

A roll to hit is binary - hit/miss
The damage roll can be minimal to instant death.