Rules Only: Weapon damage changes?

[pendragonman]

I haven't read the entire thread but...

What my group of players figured out is with the DMs for weapons and DMs for armor the "To Hit" roll isn't a roll to hit at all.

It is a roll "To Damage".

Think about it. If the hit roll is a miss, no damage.

If the hit roll hits, but doesn't penetrate the armor, no damage.

So when you total the to hit bonuses, then use the armor mods as well, you end up with a "To Damage" roll. If successful, roll damage.

 

[Supplement Four]

Your description of the combat is off, since the 8 points of damage would be a noticeable slice to the ogre, two more solid hits like that and it is down.

Not necessarily!

The combat round is...wait for it...abstract! The Ogre is not penalized with attack or movement. Don't you think a chunk missing from him would make him move slower? And, not be as effective in combat?

Because the Ogre's next blow is exactly like the first one the creature made.

So....getting a little winded is a fair assessment of what happened during that one minute of combat, I would think.

Rolling successfully hit and then doing nothing is cobblers.

You are not going to convince me otherwise.

LOL. I think you are correct! As we've discussed this before!

It's also just as hard for you to convince me that an attacker fires an AutoPistol and the result of that shot is...nothing, reallly. Very small damage to the target.

If a target has stats 777777, and then an autopistol is fired at him. The dice indicate a hit. 3D damage is rolled, resulting in 3, 2, 1.

The first blood rule is used, and all 6 points are placed randomly on the targets END, reducing it to 1.

The target then kills the attacker with a grenade.

And the target, now that the combat is over, the character immediately gains back half the lost points, making him 774777.

Once he rests for three days (the weekend), he's back at full attribute levels.

You're trying to convince me that the target was shot and suffers from a gunshot wound? A graze, maybe. But I can't imagine any gunshot would damage that is more serious than a graze doing damage that can be healed so quickly naturally.

A roll to hit is binary - hit/miss

It's not really a hit or miss, binary situation.

It's more of a hit and damage or miss, binary situation. Which leaves room for hits that don't damage.

 

[Supplement Four]

I haven't read the entire thread but...

What my group of players figured out is with the DMs for weapons and DMs for armor the "To Hit" roll isn't a roll to hit at all.

It is a roll "To Damage".

Think about it. If the hit roll is a miss, no damage.

If the hit roll hits, but doesn't penetrate the armor, no damage.

So when you total the to hit bonuses, then use the armor mods as well, you end up with a "To Damage" roll. If successful, roll damage.

You are exactly right. But, where the brain twister comes into play and confuses some players is when the target doesn't wear armor, a hit is indicated by the attack throw, but damage is minimal.

With armor, you can blame the minimal damage on armor absorption and non-penetration. Without armor, it is harder to rationalize the result.

 

[aramis]

Lol, that is not a very good rebuttal. Your description of the combat is off, since the 8 points of damage would be a noticeable slice to the ogre, two more solid hits like that and it is down.

But yes, I have read Gygax's description of what hit points and hit point loss represents.

If I hit a 20hp ogre for 8 points of damage in AD&D I'm pretty happy. Even if I roll a 1 on the damage after rolling the 20 to hit at least I have done something.

Rolling successfully hit and then doing nothing is cobblers.

You are not going to convince me otherwise.

A roll to hit is binary - hit/miss
The damage roll can be minimal to instant death.

I've been hit with small caliber bullets several times, but took not physical damage at all. Still causes psychological effects.

 

[Supplement Four]

I've been hit with small caliber bullets several times, but took not physical damage at all. Still causes psychological effects.

Really? Like with what, a .22? Would you mind elaborating a bit?

 

[mike wightman]

I've been hit with small caliber bullets several times, but took not physical damage at all. Still causes psychological effects.

I am sorry to hear that Aramis.
Do you mind if I ask questions about the injuries or lack of?

 

[Brandon C]

What I can not accept is rolling to hit and scoring negative damage; do I heal the target, grant them an adrenaline rush that shrugs off pain and previous wound, hypes their system so temporarily they have a Str of 14?

I see no problem with a rule that rolled damage less than one is treated as one. So a 3D-8 body pistol will always do at least 1 point of damage on a hit, no matter how poor the damage roll is.

 

[ian54]

I always assumed this in the rules. But the CT Errata clarifies this:

Page 34, Effects of Characteristics (clarification and omission): Wounds do not affect characteristics during a single combat as they are used to influence blows, swings, or shots. When a character is out of combat and has wounds applied, the resulting wounded levels do apply to any future combats after receiving such wounds. The intention of this rule was to not slow the game down during a combat to deal with such changes. The intention was not that already wounded characters could operate in future combats prior to recovery (or even treatment) as if they were uninjured.

So, we know that if your PC's STR or DEX drops below the requirements for -DM penalties your PC will be worse with those weapons until recovery takes place.

I extrapolate from that that other issues involving STR, DEX, or END are also affected until recovery takes place.

I'm still not seeing this reasoning, would you explain your thinking?

When a character is out of combat and has wounds applied, the resulting wounded levels do apply to any future combats after receiving such wounds.

I think this means additional wounds are applied to the wounded levels, but does not imply the reduced levels are used for advantageous strength and dexterity.

The intention was not that already wounded characters could operate in future combats prior to recovery (or even treatment) as if they were uninjured.

This clarifies what I mean, but still no implication the character is operating at reduced strength, dexterity or endurance.

 

[aramis]

I am sorry to hear that Aramis.
Do you mind if I ask questions about the injuries or lack of?

• 25 ACP, hit to the upper chest, on the field jacket pocket flap, while wearing a sweatshirt and a field jacket. Not even a bruise. Did penetrate the pocket flap... we dug the round out later.
• .22 graze through jacket - technically missed me but hit my clothes - close enough for me.
• Rickochet from a shotgun at the range while setting trap. 1st degree burn.no bruise.

The psychological impact is the same: for me, get into cover and return fire.

Note that the .25 ACP is an anemic round; heavy dense cloth often stops the round. Whether it bruises or not is dependent upon angle and

Likewise, in melee, many a hit can be spread over well enough area to do no damage, but still be felt and heard.

 

[Supplement Four]

• 25 ACP, hit to the upper chest, on the field jacket pocket flap, while wearing a sweatshirt and a field jacket. Not even a bruise. Did penetrate the pocket flap... we dug the round out later.
• .22 graze through jacket - technically missed me but hit my clothes - close enough for me.
• Rickochet from a shotgun at the range while setting trap. 1st degree burn.no bruise.

The psychological impact is the same: for me, get into cover and return fire.

Note that the .25 ACP is an anemic round; heavy dense cloth often stops the round. Whether it bruises or not is dependent upon angle and

Likewise, in melee, many a hit can be spread over well enough area to do no damage, but still be felt and heard.

I was in a house one time with an idiot who squeezed off a round he didn't know was in the barrel. This was a .380, which is a 9 mm bullet with a shorter, less powerful, casing.

The round went through a wood cabinet, both sides, through the wall behind it, across a hallway and into the next wall. We lost it after that--not sure how far it went.

And, it was LOUD.

Scared the crap out of everyone there.

I have no doubt that if anybody had been in that hallway, they definitely would have been shot, even after both sides of the cabinet and the kitchen wall.

 

[creativehum]

I'm still not seeing this reasoning, would you explain your thinking?

When a character is out of combat and has wounds applied, the resulting wounded levels do apply to any future combats after receiving such wounds.

I think this means additional wounds are applied to the wounded levels, but does not imply the reduced levels are used for advantageous strength and dexterity.

The intention was not that already wounded characters could operate in future combats prior to recovery (or even treatment) as if they were uninjured.

This clarifies what I mean, but still no implication the character is operating at reduced strength, dexterity or endurance.

I'm reading "could operate" to mean more than "taking damage." For me how a character "operates" definitely means how they are able to fire a gun accurately or swing a blade with sufficient force to do damage.

If the character has taken damage they cannot operate in a later combat as if uninsured, unless they have healed. If they haven't healed then the only way they are not operating as if uninsured is if the current characteristic values have an impact on how they are doing things.

Again -- this comes down to how I am reading the word "operate". That's my reasoning. But I also like the idea that when your STR, DEX, or END are suffering your performance suffers. So much so that I can't see not using the rules that way. But I'm not going to try to convince anyone of that. If someone doesn't see it that way, that's cool.

 

[Brandon C]

The intention was not that already wounded characters could operate in future combats prior to recovery (or even treatment) as if they were uninjured.

This clarifies what I mean, but still no implication the character is operating at reduced strength, dexterity or endurance.

It implies it quite strongly to me, as well. If a 777 character is reduced to 345 after a fight, then in his next fight he is treated as STR 3, DEX 4 and END 5. This would apply not only to weapon DMs, but the number of blows he can make before they are weakened, his allowed encumbrance and anything else that relies on those three stats.

 

[aramis]

I was in a house one time with an idiot who squeezed off a round he didn't know was in the barrel. This was a .380, which is a 9 mm bullet with a shorter, less powerful, casing.

The round went through a wood cabinet, both sides, through the wall behind it, across a hallway and into the next wall. We lost it after that--not sure how far it went.

And, it was LOUD.

Scared the crap out of everyone there.

I have no doubt that if anybody had been in that hallway, they definitely would have been shot, even after both sides of the cabinet and the kitchen wall.

the 380 is a higher energy than a .25 ACP. Typically 90-120 vs 60-70. Also, the 380 is typically hard-ball, while the .25 is almost always soft-nose lead.

Then there's also range to consider. And round aspect at impact, wind losses,

all of which can drastically alter the wounding profile. As does angle of impact. I don't know what angle the .25 came in from. I do know I had to work the bullet out from between the layers of the polyester/cotton of a 1980's USAF field Jacket. I wouldn't trust it to stop bullets; I will say it did stop that one.

Likewise, i've had hits in fencing I would have sworn would bruise, but didn't, and others that bruised, but were barely felt.

Then there's my buddy Chris. Who, sitting in his living room, had a 9mm bullet enter just behind his ear, and stop, doing only some bleeding. The other guy hit in the same drive by, needed emergency surgery.

All of which boils down to, "Random damage from 0+ makes plenty of sense to me."

Looking up the energy of a punch...50 to 1000 foot–pounds.
So, a .25 which is prevented from penetration is comparable to a typical unskilled punch. A .380 into a vest is a snap-punch from a karateka.


http://www.science.ca/askascientist/viewquestion.php?qID=821
http://www.ballistics101.com/25_acp.php
http://www.ballistics101.com/380_acp.php