TNE Only: What if there was no Virus

[Uxi]

The biggest problem with political fuedalism is that it's to an individual much moreso than a state as epicenter says and canon witnesses as the loyalty to Lucan and the other high nobles who spin off into separate factions in the 3I Final War . Of course, medieval fuedalism is explicitly different in that it encompasses economics, as well, particularly on land ownership as well as military service which the 3I obviously has different.

One interesting subset which I believe is referenced from a few sources (Imperial Encyclopedia, Survival Margin, etc) is individual standards of the noble familes/individuals instead of the generic sunburst we usually see, which would really only be used vaguely or for interregnums.

Strephon should have his own. Dulinor's is easily transposed to that we nominally of as Illelish, similar to Deneb from Norris' unicorn, etc but Lucan should have his own probably (hastily) derived from that of Strephon's. I imagine they would incorporate Sunbursts much like a lion or fleur de lis was in medieval standards but is far too abstract to be realistic. The list of Emperors would be much more complete with their own standards, particularly early Solomani-centric ones until the Civil Wars after which Vilani ones would become increasingly predominant through the Solomani Rim War after which it would probably reach a relative equilabrium...

 

[Uxi]

Only the best are chosen for the British honor guard to the Queen. In the movies "The Bodyguard" and "Man of Fire" we see highly trained specialists chosen for private bodyguards, which is not unrealistic.

I'd suggest, we really don't understand the training of the Emperor's Finest.

Eh, let's not conflate Imperial Guard regiments (which are battle dress Grav / Jump infantry ) which are largely ceremonial and semi-feudal ala the Duke's Own Huscarles with the Third Imperium's analogy of the Secret Service.

 

[savage]

Eh, let's not conflate Imperial Guard regiments (which are battle dress Grav / Jump infantry ) which are largely ceremonial and semi-feudal ala the Duke's Own Huscarles with the Third Imperium's analogy of the Secret Service.

Why not? This is a matter of understanding 3I's "Guards" requirements perhaps.
I'd say these troops would need to be among the best to be rewarded with such duty.

 

[Reban]

Why not? This is a matter of understanding 3I's "Guards" requirements perhaps.
I'd say these troops would need to be among the best to be rewarded with such duty.

Isn't actual "Close Protection" of the Emperor and his family undertaken by a branch of the Imperial Scout Service?

Secure Transport is undertaken by special Imperial Marine Companies (a la the US President's "Marine One" helicopter). Then there's the Imperial Navy escort squadron and an Imperial yacht for interplanetary travel.

The role of Household troops like the Imperial Guard falls into 4 main areas:

• To police and control the capital and to secure the seat of government (1)
• To provide an outer security cordon around the person of the sovereign
• To provide military ceremonial (2)
• To act as a means of personal power projection

Notes:
(1) The original secondary role of the Footguards (the infantry) and Lifeguards (the cavalry) Regiments in the UK was to keep the Kings Peace in London. They did this until the advent of the modern police. They are still empowered to do so at the various points where they mount guards in London i.e. Horse Guards Parade (the former Army HQ), St. James Palace (the traditional site of the English Monarch's Court) and Buckingham Palace. See Youtube for how Guards sentries do this to obnoxious tourists :smirk:

(2) I'd put this under the heading of "media relations". Everybody loves a parade and pomp and ceremony can solicit a positive reaction from the people you are ruling. Subjects often expect the trappings of power from their sovereign and soldiers in uniform are the traditional way to do this. Sticking your Imperial family in a military uniform is also good as it shouts "service". If no other branch of the military will take a prince or princess you can always commission them in your household troops.


Imperial Guard members have to have prior service and be recommended for a place in the Guard. They are usually on an "up or out" promotions scheduled. This is because serving so close to the center of power they may be tempted to cash in or exert political influence. History is full of stories of royal guards who sold passes, left doors open or got a petitioner close to the king. Regiments can by action or inaction in a time of crisis act as king makers as happened in Imperial Russia and Imperial Rome.

You would assume that these troops need to be the best soldiers, but thats not always the case. Often the prestige of serving close to the head of state attracts social climbers and those concerned with personal advancement. This is especially true if they are not combat troops. Of course if they are combat troops its likely the King/Emperor/Other will take an interest in presenting his troops as Elites.

Requirements might not have anything to do with the military; Gaddafi had an all female bodyguard, the old Queen Mother of England was partial to the taller guardsmen from the Irish Guards, traditionally the bodyguard of the King of France were Scots.

 

[savage]

Isn't actual "Close Protection" of the Emperor and his family undertaken by a branch of the Imperial Scout Service?
...

The role of Household troops like the Imperial Guard falls into 4 main areas:

• To police and control the capital and to secure the seat of government (1)
• To provide an outer security cordon around the person of the sovereign
• To provide military ceremonial (2)
• To act as a means of personal power projection

No. Guard units we're used in Rhylanor during the 5th Frontier War.

TD09
pg16
announcer "...Apparently Dulinor was accompanied by his own honor guard, which assisted him in this by shooting the emperor's own troops ..."
pg 18
"...Imperial Guard, the most elite troops of the Imperium. They are, however, far more than spit and polish ceremonial soldiers..."
pg19
"...each member is a seasoned veteran."

IMO.
Dulinor used the Illelish Guard against other 3 guard units. Aslan Guard was on duty. Also, note there is an Antares Guard, but not on duty. If he had fleet assets in orbit. The "Grand Palace of Arabellatra" had the ability to open fire.
TD09 also describes Dlan as TL G. Of course, under T5 everything is in the air.

 

[Reban]

No to what exactly?

No. Guard units we're used in Rhylanor during the 5th Frontier War.

TD09
pg16
announcer "...Apparently Dulinor was accompanied by his own honor guard, which assisted him in this by shooting the emperor's own troops ..."
pg 18
"...Imperial Guard, the most elite troops of the Imperium. They are, however, far more than spit and polish ceremonial soldiers..."
pg19
"...each member is a seasoned veteran."

TD09 p20 "the Scout Service Imperial Protection Detail has 12-person detachments on continuous protective duty within sight of the Emperor" thats the definition of the Close Protection aka Bodyguard work I was talking about.

Secondly my four points were on the general subject of Household troops. I wasn't making the point that The Imperial Guard is not a combat formation because they are specifically stated to be an elite combat formation.

Thirdly I meant by my fourth point "To act as a means of personal power projection" that when a formation such as The Imperial Guard are deployed they are acting in the role of personal representatives of the Emperor in theater. To quote TD09 again from p19 "The Guard is also the Emperor's personal troops and may be assigned missions to enforce Imperial policy". That's the Emperor projecting his personal power through his troops.


Quick question: Do you have a reference for the Aslan Guard being on duty? I'm reading The Rebellion Sourcebook and and it refers to the honor guard on duty in the throne room but not which regiment. The Aslan Ambassador was standing on the dais. Just wondering.

 

[rancke]

No. Guard units we're used in Rhylanor during the 5th Frontier War.

Imperial Guard units? Where is that information from?


Hans

 

[Reban]

Only the best are chosen for the British honor guard to the Queen. In the movies "The Bodyguard" and "Man of Fire" we see highly trained specialists chosen for private bodyguards, which is not unrealistic.

I'd suggest, we really don't understand the training of the Emperor's Finest.

Reading back through the thread this may be where your confusion comes from.

The Household Division of the British Army includes the Regiments of Footguards and the Lifeguards and Blues and Royals cavalry regiments. On a rotational basis the Footguards provide a Public Duties Incremental Company. They are the ones who mount guards outside Buckingham and St. James Palaces and do ceremonial duties. The cavalry regiments provide a Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment that mount guards at Horseguards Parade and perform mounted ceremonials. There's also King's Troop Royal Artillery that fire gun salutes.

The important point is that all these units parent formations are parts of the regular army and are combat units of the British Army. When on guard duty they may challenge and detain someone but its the Metropolitan Police who come to sort things out. After basic training recruits either go to public duties or a combat unit and after serving for a period they switch over.

Actual protection of royal family members is done by Crown Protection Officers, specially trained police officers on secondment from various police forces in the UK. They are trained in close protection.

Kevin Costner was a terrible bodyguard but Denzel Washington was better.

But the more important thing is: Soldiers: good at guarding things that don't move, like palaces. Close Protection officers: good at not letting their Principle get themselves killed.


Principle = the person being guarded.

 

[savage]

No to what exactly?




TD09 p20 "the Scout Service Imperial Protection Detail has 12-person detachments on continuous protective duty within sight of the Emperor" thats the definition of the Close Protection aka Bodyguard work I was talking about.

Secondly my four points were on the general subject of Household troops. I wasn't making the point that The Imperial Guard is not a combat formation because they are specifically stated to be an elite combat formation.

Thirdly I meant by my fourth point "To act as a means of personal power projection" that when a formation such as The Imperial Guard are deployed they are acting in the role of personal representatives of the Emperor in theater. To quote TD09 again from p19 "The Guard is also the Emperor's personal troops and may be assigned missions to enforce Imperial policy". That's the Emperor projecting his personal power through his troops.


Quick question: Do you have a reference for the Aslan Guard being on duty? I'm reading The Rebellion Sourcebook and and it refers to the honor guard on duty in the throne room but not which regiment. The Aslan Ambassador was standing on the dais. Just wondering.

I see where you're going.
I see SSPD as a separate unit, but assigned to the IG for coordination purposes. It is discussed in an article on the Guard. I would see the purpose of layering security.

Yes. page 15 of TD09 mentions the Aslan Guard and others involved in the GPofA Battle.

 

[McPerth]

Quick question: Do you have a reference for the Aslan Guard being on duty? I'm reading The Rebellion Sourcebook and and it refers to the honor guard on duty in the throne room but not which regiment. The Aslan Ambassador was standing on the dais. Just wondering.

Imperial Guard units? Where is that information from?

I don't have it handy right now, but IIRC both answers were in TD09, with the explations of the Imperial Guard.

Answering to Hans, there was reference of a whole Division form them being in Rhylanor area for the FFW (as an elite jump division)

Answering to Reban, it says the Guards on duty are one rotating Domain regiment plus the Aslan, Marine, Houshold Cavalry and Artillery regiments, that are always in duty.

 

[Reban]

Ah thanks all, "always on duty" I'd forgotten that.

So from my reading of the assassination that means The Aslan Guard, the Marine Guard, the Imperial Artillery and the Household Cavalry are on duty with Ilelish Guard being the current one on monthly rotation.

It doesn't automatically make the Honor Guard on duty in the throne room Aslan but its a fair enough assumption, although I'd imagine if they were Aslan the sight of their Emperor being cut down would drive them to a frenzy that wouldn't have left Dulinor standing.

The understanding I get from the TD09 article is that the Imperial Guard is closer in concept to the Masion Militaire du Roi of the King of France or the Military Household of the Russian Czars in that it is the collective name given to all the military or paramilitary units serving the Emperor directly. We have the eleven IG regiments (the military arm), the Marine Escort Force (for travelling security), the Scout Service Imperial Protection Detail (close protection of the Emperor's person), and the Naval Imperial Escort Squadron (for secure interplanetary travel). I'd also assume the Imperial Guard is home to a number of Aides de Camp, probably drawn from the officers of the IG regiments.

To be an effective combat force the IG would need a Divisional Headquarters of roughly battalion size and service support units. The HQ element can be formed by detaching parts of the regimental HQs and forming a staff from senior officers in the Imperial household. Service and support elements for a jumpd division would be light and could come from the Imperial Army.

 

[savage]

...the Scout Service Imperial Protection Detail (close protection of the Emperor's person), ...

The PD is an interesting twist. Perhaps in an internal function they'd only have 2 -4 members guarding the Emperor or 1-2 per royal family member. Dulinor needs to riddle them with shots.

The lack of Imperial automated defenses in the throne room is also surprising. "Mad as a Dilani" may reference a tendency to Berzerker rage in battle.

On the travellermap thread I was trying to discuss balance in our environment. By changing stats we risk changing canon. However, I believe reasonable explanations are in plain sight if we discuss them first then tweak the stats or canon.(Then someone else discussed T5 and the thread was closed.) Same here- the canon just needs tweaks, a few holes filled.

 

[Reban]

The Protection Detail is supposed to have 12 people protecting the Emperor at any one time, but like the US President when he's sitting in the Oval Office they'll be guarding points of entry and monitoring the overall security situation. Their focus is on potential threats. By their precautions anyone actually in the throne room should be classified as "safe".

Dulinor represents a blind spot for the entire Imperial security apparatus.

There is no description of any Protection Detail making any move, and the Honor Guard don't make any move until everyone on the dais is dead.


I'm not surprised there is no "active" auto-defense because it could conceivably be hacked and turned into an offensive weapon.

I am surprised that there weren't more passive measures like ballistic glass at the front of the dais or that the throne couldn't snap around to cover the Emperor.

Major canon tweaks are needed to explain how no one in the Imperium's crack fighting force noticed that the Quartermaster was issuing them dummy ammunition. It would be simpler to say he removed their firing pins.

 

[Uxi]

There is no description of any Protection Detail making any move, and the Honor Guard don't make any move until everyone on the dais is dead.

IIRC Rebellion Sourcebook says Dulinor's guard were picking them off. Aslan or not, without ammunition the Ilelish Guard would have been making them dead.

Major canon tweaks are needed to explain how no one in the Imperium's crack fighting force noticed that the Quartermaster was issuing them dummy ammunition. It would be simpler to say he removed their firing pins.

Perhaps it was made dummy. IOW, ammunition with the equivalent of inert powder while still retaining primers, etc

IOW, not off teh shelf dummy ammo but ammunition specifically made to be such.

 

[McPerth]

It doesn't automatically make the Honor Guard on duty in the throne room Aslan but its a fair enough assumption, although I'd imagine if they were Aslan the sight of their Emperor being cut down would drive them to a frenzy that wouldn't have left Dulinor standing.

Being an audiece with a high Aslan ambassor, I'd bet some Aslan were on the ceremonial guard in the Throne Room that day, but, not expecting truble, I guess they were easily killed by the Ilelish Guard that was already ready.

Again IIRC (till searching for my TD09) in the news reports given on it (as if a newspeople was narrating what he/she sees in live) it specifically talked about seeing Aslan Guard units fighting near the Imperial Palace...

To be an effective combat force the IG would need a Divisional Headquarters of roughly battalion size and service support units. The HQ element can be formed by detaching parts of the regimental HQs and forming a staff from senior officers in the Imperial household. Service and support elements for a jumpd division would be light and could come from the Imperial Army.

Being an 11 regiment force, I'd say more about 2-3 divisional and 1 Corps HQs. But otherways I agree.

The Protection Detail is supposed to have 12 people protecting the Emperor at any one time, but like the US President when he's sitting in the Oval Office they'll be guarding points of entry and monitoring the overall security situation. Their focus is on potential threats. By their precautions anyone actually in the throne room should be classified as "safe".

Dulinor represents a blind spot for the entire Imperial security apparatus.

There is no description of any Protection Detail making any move, and the Honor Guard don't make any move until everyone on the dais is dead.

ITTR havig read (again, IIRC) that the ISSPD was also killed at the firs shoots by the Ilelish Guards in the Throne room

I am surprised that there weren't more passive measures like ballistic glass at the front of the dais or that the throne couldn't snap around to cover the Emperor.

I also think to recall that the Iridium throne was also expected to act as armor for the Emperor should the need arise. Of course, when Strephon stood to greet Dulinor, he was unarmored still and close to the shooter, so it was easy for him not to miss him.

As for Ilolante and Ciencia Ipgenia, I guess they were shocked and did not react on time, while Dulinor was ready and actig fast.

Major canon tweaks are needed to explain how no one in the Imperium's crack fighting force noticed that the Quartermaster was issuing them dummy ammunition. It would be simpler to say he removed their firing pins.

That will also depend on their weaponry. If some of them carry laser or energy weapons, I guess it's easy to fuge full cargoes while being empty, and no weight difference wil lbe noted.

In any case, according to Rebelión Sourcebook, it was one of the Household Guards that accidentally discovered is ammo was dummy (in this case it specifies an SMG) and raised the alert, and when Strephon was shot the guards were changing the ammo for correct one and raising the readiness in all the complex, but has not yet finished on it.

I guess the last place they intended to alert was the Throe Room, as they would think it was the safest place, more probably expecting something from the exterior...

 

[mike wightman]

Wouldn't they be using TL15 gauss weapons since they are standard issue from TL12 onwards?

 

[savage]

I'm not surprised there is no "active" auto-defense because it could conceivably be hacked and turned into an offensive weapon.

Major canon tweaks are needed to explain how no one in the Imperium's crack fighting force noticed that the Quartermaster was issuing them dummy ammunition. It would be simpler to say he removed their firing pins.

Automated defenses could be active and passive. Weapons proof glass separates the royal family from the crowd if a weapon is detected, for example.

Also, TD09 states Dlan is TL16. On the other hand, if anyone could afford ancient weapons, it is the emperor.

 

[McPerth]

Wouldn't they be using TL15 gauss weapons since they are standard issue from TL12 onwards?

If so, dummy ammo is quite easy to pass as good. IIRC, the gauss clip also has te battery for the slug to be propelled. Just discharging the battery (and perhaps bypassing any indicator for charge) will do it, and no weight difference to be felt...

Also remember that, not expecting it and being among trusted troops, I guess the Guards trust their supply officers and quartermasters, not checking each ammo clip (or quivalent for lasers, etc...) they receive.

 

[mike wightman]

Yup, it should be pretty easy to spoof the power indicator on the magazine/power pack.

 

[Reban]

Perhaps it was made dummy. IOW, ammunition with the equivalent of inert powder while still retaining primers, etc

IOW, not off teh shelf dummy ammo but ammunition specifically made to be such.

I'd thought of that but that requires a bigger conspiracy.

You'd have to get the ammunition with inert propellant into the supply chain and make sure that nobody requisitions some for a visit to the firing range before the assasination and coup happens.

You could smuggle it in with the help of the Quartermaster but then there's a whole lot of extra ammo sitting there for noisy types to trip over.

If I was the the Quartermaster or Armourer I'd just remove all the firing pins the night before the action is supposed to happen. Its a little harder to spot and easier to explain away. Plus if the loyal Guards get their hands ammo their weapons are still useless.

Of course this only applies to CPR weapons. The reason I brought it up is because there is specific mention of a Household Cavalry trooper having an accident with his SMG and being surprised that there is no bang (the idea of a
"fortuitous" accidental discharge at such a crucial moment )

With lasers yes you could supply power cells with no charge but you'd need to fool the laser's self test or shots remain display somehow.

Gauss weapons are probably easiest to supply inert ammo for as I'd assume magazines are supplied preloaded and sealed. You could supply non conducting darts that can't be affected by the gauss gun's mechanism.

As a guy who works with real and dummy firearms and has to issue blank ammo this minor little plot element just made me go :file_28::file_28::file_28: