I agree research project with a 2nd system of the Emperor produced.
GT JTAS? I haven't looked at it in a long time.
TNE Only: What if there was no Virus
- Thread starter Chuck Anumia
- Start date
I agree research project with a 2nd system of the Emperor produced.
GT JTAS? I haven't looked at it in a long time.
Isn't it membership?
When I started my T20 campaign I considered doing GT, as well. I have a lot of GT stuff, but I decided to support Hunter exclusively.
There's a subscription fee if that's what you mean. $20 for two years (including access to the archives with all the old articles).
Hans
Yeah. That was it. I dropped it because, although I liked GT, I simply was not using it. And I was supporting the growth of T20, converting many southern D&Ders to Traveller.
How about a more limited Virus?
Timeline moves through Survival Margin nearly the same, but takes a turn at the end. Virus is too slow to adapt to changing transponder systems, and the Black Curtain essentially becomes the line of battle between Virus and bordering factions of the Imperium -- and perhaps the Hivers as well. Instead of wiping everybody out, it deals severe blows and provides the survivors something to unite against -- or at least tone down their backstabbing to nearly civil levels in order to deal as one against Virus.
Lucan of course becomes some cyborg abomination, perhaps with a cyborg abomination clone Lucan installed on every Virus world as some horrible Overlord.
So the setting morphs to a gigantic Battle Of The Bulge, in a way. The unity required to meet the terrible threat creates a martial union that trumps the power of the dukes (at cost), and the whole thing becomes a rhyme of the Barracks Emperors, with Virus being part of the novelty.
Once Virus seems to be getting under control, Dukes and Admirals meet on various fields of honor, forsaking Black War for good old-fashioned duels, and lots of resources are still wasted and good blood spilled. 'Traitor' Virus is somehow eventually granted amnesty in return for casting its lot with humaniti.
The New Era sees a depleted Imperium, held together by what military is left and many newly-minted dukes, being chewed on by opportunistic vargr, militant k'kree, and land-hungry aslan, who are also chewing on what's left of the Solomani. Corridor, an upper swath of Deneb, and the coremost worlds in the Marches are vargr now (or perhaps: once again). The remains of the Domain of Deneb's military is at half strength, and the vargr and aslan really become an actual problem. The Spinward Marches sees a rash of defections as border worlds declare independence and become client states. The Five Sisters is abandoned, and Daryen and Swordies expand their spheres of influence. The Zhodani mysteriously implode -- no Virus there, so what happened? The Federation of Arden strengthens, also mysteriously.
So, we still have the Imperium, struggling against the Black Curtain. We still have the Marches, although essentially cut off from the rest of the Imperium until the navy solves its Virus problem and a reconquista begins from both sides (that would be fun to be a part of). Meanwhile traders can work their way thru vargr space, which used to be Imperial. And the squabbling Factions have spent their dissenting energies, their leaders either dead or discredited or just replaced. So Rebellion is ended, Virus is a catalyst for it, but we don't have to lose the Imperium to get it.
Timeline moves through Survival Margin nearly the same, but takes a turn at the end. Virus is too slow to adapt to changing transponder systems, and the Black Curtain essentially becomes the line of battle between Virus and bordering factions of the Imperium -- and perhaps the Hivers as well. Instead of wiping everybody out, it deals severe blows and provides the survivors something to unite against -- or at least tone down their backstabbing to nearly civil levels in order to deal as one against Virus.
Lucan of course becomes some cyborg abomination, perhaps with a cyborg abomination clone Lucan installed on every Virus world as some horrible Overlord.
So the setting morphs to a gigantic Battle Of The Bulge, in a way. The unity required to meet the terrible threat creates a martial union that trumps the power of the dukes (at cost), and the whole thing becomes a rhyme of the Barracks Emperors, with Virus being part of the novelty.
Once Virus seems to be getting under control, Dukes and Admirals meet on various fields of honor, forsaking Black War for good old-fashioned duels, and lots of resources are still wasted and good blood spilled. 'Traitor' Virus is somehow eventually granted amnesty in return for casting its lot with humaniti.
The New Era sees a depleted Imperium, held together by what military is left and many newly-minted dukes, being chewed on by opportunistic vargr, militant k'kree, and land-hungry aslan, who are also chewing on what's left of the Solomani. Corridor, an upper swath of Deneb, and the coremost worlds in the Marches are vargr now (or perhaps: once again). The remains of the Domain of Deneb's military is at half strength, and the vargr and aslan really become an actual problem. The Spinward Marches sees a rash of defections as border worlds declare independence and become client states. The Five Sisters is abandoned, and Daryen and Swordies expand their spheres of influence. The Zhodani mysteriously implode -- no Virus there, so what happened? The Federation of Arden strengthens, also mysteriously.
So, we still have the Imperium, struggling against the Black Curtain. We still have the Marches, although essentially cut off from the rest of the Imperium until the navy solves its Virus problem and a reconquista begins from both sides (that would be fun to be a part of). Meanwhile traders can work their way thru vargr space, which used to be Imperial. And the squabbling Factions have spent their dissenting energies, their leaders either dead or discredited or just replaced. So Rebellion is ended, Virus is a catalyst for it, but we don't have to lose the Imperium to get it.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
If no Virus, I might be slightly more tempted to spend some more time and money looking at the New Era. Only slightly though, as I am not a fan of the Rebellion either.
epicenter00
SOC-13
The situation you're describing is interesting, but could have easily occurred without the Virus at all (besides the Lucan of Borg stuff, that is).
The Virus has always been a pretty curious to me because of the amount of hatred and bile directed at it. To me, the Virus the real tragedy of the Virus was that it wasn't sufficiently explored. It was never sufficiently allowed to develop to be a real player in events and its cartoonish portrayal in TNE was always really tragic to me.
TNE required that the Third Imperium (TI) go away. Normally, the Virus is seen as doing this. I've always been fascinated that so many fans of CT and MT direct so much bile at the Virus yet many of those same players like the supplement Hard Times. In my opinion, Hard Times was really the supplement that killed the Imperium in the timeline. Anyone who read through Hard Times would have been hard pressed to say that the TI would have been able to come back from the events described in there. It certainly was the irretrievably point of the classic Third Imperium; MT's tagline was "adventuring in the shattered Imperium" but with Hard Times, I think that MT really moved to "adventuring in the post-Imperial Era."
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Read the MgT Darrians book.
Now they are
Their pre-collapse fleet are all sentient ships, often more skilled than the human crew due to the experience they have gathered over the centuries.
Yeah. There was a lot of that on COTI 10 years ago. Remember?
- Virus is just a machine not sentient
- Virus is timed to end
- Virus goes off in search of the center of the galaxy
- Virus stays in the black curtain torturing the sector. A lesson in arrogance to all others. (non-expansionist Borg)
- Grandfather smacks Virus about, etc.
MTU Virus is different. In my opinion that is the fix. There are different ways of making it work, but 1248 failed miserably. It started on the right foot, but a several supreme being style Virus-types trashing the universe does not work.
I have been working on an alternate non-Virus scenario. It's about 9 pages now, but fact MTU will always have Virus.
First thing. Anyone who attempts to kill me and does kill those close to me is NOT my friend. He is an enemy who I am considering dredging up some ancient history to find a right proper, long and painful method of execution. Friends? I do wonder what kind of friends most people have that they would consider someone who tried to/did kill you as your friendI like your reasoning here. I think I remember correctly that Strephon suffered a breakdown upon news of the death of his wife and daughter at the hands of one of his closest friends.
It was a while before he recovered his senses, so for a while it was the actions of his entourage that dictates his movements. With no pre-determined plan they had to make choices on the spot that had not been covered in security planning sessions.
As to the lack of fleet movement, they too are hampered by the need to plan. Do the sector admirals really have detailed secret strategic plans for how to deploy and crush a renegade sector or two?
How much planning and assembly of a supply chain is required before you commit your fleets to a very costly and likely bloody conflict (TL15 vs TL15
Another thing that always bothered me with the sweeping movement of fleets during the rebellion was the lack of consideration of the communication lag, it was almost like someone was just moving pieces around on a board rather than think of the months it takes to reorganise forces before they deploy to an unknown combat zone.
As an aside - by TL15 an autodoc would take all of 5 mins to match a Strephon retinal pattern and finger prints to a clone/body double.
Second. Any Admiral who doesn't have plans to invade and suppress the neighboring Sectors should be fired. I mean seriously, that is part of the job, putting down rebellions and uprisings (the others showing the flag and defense of the realm). For crying out loud, the US has plans to invade Mexico, Canada and Europe as I recall and those a allied nations and we don't have anywhere the history that the 3I does with crushing internal problems.
Well. Works calls, must dash, but I must say this has been fun to lurk.
Bringing up good points.
But Dulinor was more of a working project for Stephon than a friend.
Historical, 3I had the domains suppressed by the Domain capitals and their fleets. So, it is not necessarily any sector that they'd consider planning.
Also, Lucan mixed things up. He removed certain nobles, admirals and changed battle strategies.
Lycanorukke
SOC-13
And we have seen how well 'plans' work when push comes to shove. As von Moltke said "Therefore no plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force". Paraprased as "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy (or reality)".
Now the admiral is supposed to be able to improvise when the plan goes SNAFU, but when was the last time the core fleets actually had a real fight on their hands? The best experience most of them would have had is shooting up a few raiders, or a world or two. Having to fight someone who could seriously hit back would be unknown outside 'historical theory' to those not on the Soli Rim or in the Marches. Even the Corridor fleets were limited to an oversided fleet shooting a few piddling Vargr Squadrons. Stomping on ants doesn't prepare you for when someone swings a fist at you.
Now stack the officer class with 'second son' nobles and don't institute an equivilant of the Cardwell reforms. Sending noble officers to the borders to get experience would be good, but sending a noble from the centre of power (Core) to some ass backwards frontier region would be seen more as punishment by the political class rather than good experience and thus would be avoided to stop ruffling feathers or killing your own career.
So you have an officer class whose skills are more suited to sucking up rather than putting down. And those who actually do have skill and experience are a long way away when the action starts.
That's what I understand as well. The challenge now is to make the new plan make sense.
If I understand the story line, Strephon and his queen and firstborn were gunned down in the throne room before a live audience with a camera rolling. One shot to each of three targets plus one to a fourth who got in the way, while his guard eliminated other threats in the room. I don't see Dulinor shooting out his eyes and burning his fingerprints before a live audience, nor is such hinted at. There's no indication he was cremated. So, either no one knew to check before he was put in the ground - which is odd, there should have been a head of security or someone in the know, if only to make sure the clone didn't issue a decree that Strephon would have to live with after he returned - or someone knew and kept that knowledge to themselves.
Likely the Empress knew (it could be awkward otherwise), and that knowledge died with her, but there'd need to be someone in the background with control over Strephon's schedule who also knew, lest the clone decide to take some action that only Strephon should be taking. Obvious candidates are Strephon's head of security and Strephon's seneschal. The clone is essentially a twin brother; what if he develops his own ambitions?
There are some suggesting the clone was given altered retinal patterns and fingerprints. That's certainly within the skills of TL15 medical tech, though likely limited to cloak-and-dagger stuff since it creates rather obvious law enforcement and security problems. The hole in that hypothesis is why Strephon would want a clone so thoroughly identical to him that someone could easily replace him with it, when all he needs it for is audiences and public appearances.
And that's a very good point. And that's where the clone bit comes in. The party with Strephon at Depot knows the real Strephon's alive, probably know there was a clone back there covering his trail. One or more of them may also know that someone in the palace knows that - but that news didn't get out. Ergo, there's a problem, and it is likely unsafe for Strephon to go straight back to Capital until exactly what happened is figured out and they know who they can and can't trust. Ergo Strephon and party lay low and head for a safe house while they try to put plans in motion to figure out what's going on in the palace and why the news that it was a clone was suppressed.
I'd support anything that made Virus make more sense. We have a program that not only infects computers but persuades them to make physical alterations in themselves? Something that jumps from ship to ship via the transponders and can "egg" in anything with a microprocessor?
Well, it's far future sci fi. Gods alone know how a computer works at TL15 - but don't tell me that my TL5 Model/1 has a built-in chip-altering function. Draw a line somewhere, say that computers of - oh - TL9 and below are vulnerable to the software hack but not vulnerable to the physical alteration function, because they simply lack that capacity. They can therefore be repaired by turning off the computer and purging the memory, then re-installing all the programs. Logical limits: sure, the TL11 hand computer's probably infected, as is the med scanner that was designed to communicate with a computer, but the digital sight on the TL13 laser rifle is not built to send or receive communications and is most likely safe - it either works or it doesn't.
The Imperial Fleet still becomes a lethal threat to anyone and everyone. Flying cities still fall from the skies, and so forth. Most of what makes the Fall the Fall still occurs. But from a role-play viewpoint, the free traders and subsidized merchants survive. The low tech spacefaring worlds survive; they just have to reinforce their defenses against the occasional Berserker - I mean, Virus - warship. Enough infrastructure survives that you can make an interesting game of trying to play THROUGH the period of Virus, amidst the wreck of high-tech worlds and the desperation of low tech worlds trying to muster enough strength to stand off a TL15 Virus Cruiser. You still evolve into a universe that looks a lot like the one the Star Vikings encounter, as the lights wink out one by one under pressure of the Virus warships over the intervening decades - it's just that you can play through it. Some of the adventures will look a bit like scenes from Terminator, actually, as players work through the wreckage of high-tech worlds looking for bits of tech that might help their homeworld hold off the enemy.
Very true - and also true for Dulinor's fleets. I wouldn't be so quick to discount Corridor fleet, though. There are some impressive threats just a few parsecs coreward in Provence, and they'd know about that - and they'd likely be doing a lot of exercise against the day the Irrgh Manifest decides to send a few TL15 fleets down to play. One suspects there'd be a reason the Corridor sector is overstrength. And, there may well be a few veterans of the Fifth Frontier War among them.
Lycanorukke
SOC-13
Quite true, but he has the advantage in that he can get his fleets up to date, tactics which incorporate the latest advances in technology/strategy (eg: Globes), maybe even build a few ships that dont spec as if designed by a committee of drunk monkeys (Fighting Ships - urgh
o.Sure it would draw attention, but he was put in his position as a 'reformer' so he is techically doing his job even before he got ideas about the throne. And when he had the power, he could have easily and quietly sacked people like Santanocheev (or even better transfer them to Core fleets as a 'reward for service' so their incompetance works in his favor).
It's no so much dismissal (they do have live fire experience from the coarsairs) as opposed to their used tactics.
Even if the Vargr could organize a fleet/squadron under one commander, once you shoot the leader the Vargr unit coherence falls apart. So the fleet is defeated _but_ now instead on one big problem meeting you head on you have lots of little problems flying off in every direction. The fleet size is good for the intimidation factor, but a main reason for the size is to chase down the 'little problems' which have spun off before they cause trouble.
So I would guess their strategy is to kill the big ship quickly and then spend most of their time chasing down the rest which have scattered before they reorganise under a new leader. Very different to Imperial style naval engagements with formal chains of command.
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Don't have my copy of the Rebellion Sourcebook to hand. But from memory didn't the Illelish Guards dig in for their suicide stand actually inside the palace? If so and we assume they included the throne room and bodies inside their perimeter we neatly get around the whole clone, retina, finger print issue. Especially if we likewise assume that Dulinor at least knows of the possibility of there being an Eratz-Strephon in the throne room. If this is the case we can have the bodies nicely toasted in the firefight.
What a quibble. Mike talked about someone who Strephon thought of as a friend until he proved otherwise. That's a betrayal on a very personal level and will have an added emotional impact. It's really not much of a help to say, after the fact, that "he wasn't really a friend at all". It's still going to add to the hurt.
Hans
And in fact that might be the easiest pill for me to swallow. We are fast approaching the capability. We will be able to create reconfigurable hardware, as if an Intel architecture could morph into a Motorola architecture. Blows my mind.
Throwing out the transponder viral egg is probably a popular move. Implanting in repair parts a bit more plausible. Or even new transponders someone suggested.
Yes. I'll testify a very workable universe.
Corridor, Lishun, and Old Expanse Sector Fleets at full-force should have crushed Illelish Fleet, even if it's reinforced. Core Fleet takes a defensive posture. I proposed that IOESF was on-site first, and the other two were not at full
strength. These fleets are working against external threats on a daily basis while IISF was realistically an internal 3I fleet. DPG suggested that Dlan is TL16, but they also suggested 24 systems in Massila were TL16.
