TNE Only: What if there was no Virus

[epicenter00]

I'd support anything that made Virus make more sense. We have a program that not only infects computers but persuades them to make physical alterations in themselves? Something that jumps from ship to ship via the transponders and can "egg" in anything with a microprocessor?

Being fascinated by the idea of the Virus-as-lifeform, I've thought about it at length over the decades since TNE came out. About five years ago for the game I run, I began writing my version of the Virus to make "sense."

It's currently on 60 pages and counting. The more I looked at it, the more it didn't make sense.

We'll start by conveniently overlooking/ignoring the precise mechanics of how the Virus works and just say that it does work. I've found the Virus actually works perfectly fine as purely a software/program entity. There's no need for any of that "it burns new pathways into circuitboard" nonsense (though I've even come up with an explanation for that).

Even at that level, I don't think the Virus would have the effect it had. The breakdown of order, communication, and trade in the Imperium would have actually slowed the Virus tremendously. It's more likely that the Virus, at best, would have run rampant through Lucan's Safe, but slowed down significantly afterwards; people in other Safes are necessarily suspicious of ships and data coming in from the outside. The freewheeling, deregulated universe of the classic Third Imperium wouldn't exist after 20-odd years of war.

In addition, the Wilds themselves would have hampered the Virus-as-written significantly. The early "suicider" strains really aren't noted for their patience. In the Wilds, where technological society had often fallen below the level that could support the Virus, where would it find systems to infect? They'd probably have just decided to kill themselves before crossing over to the next Safe.

 

[savage]

That's what I understand as well. The challenge now is to make the new plan make sense.... Strephon and his queen and firstborn were gunned down in the throne room before a live audience with a camera rolling. One shot to each of three targets plus one to a fourth who got in the way, while his guard eliminated other threats in the room. I don't see Dulinor shooting out his eyes and burning his fingerprints before a live audience, nor is such hinted at. There's no indication he was cremated. ...knowledge died with her, but there'd need to be someone in the background with control over Strephon's schedule who also knew, lest the clone decide to take some action that only Strephon should be taking. Obvious candidates are Strephon's head of security and Strephon's seneschal. The clone is essentially a twin brother; what if he develops his own ambitions?
... Ergo Strephon and party lay low and head for a safe house while they try to put plans in motion to figure out what's going on in the palace and why the news that it was a clone was suppressed.

The details in TD09 and other sources are sketchy at best. We know he was killed with a single shot. But the blow by blow event is not recorded. cremation is an option at Lucan's disposal. Covering up evidence is pretty easy in his position. I agree about the Empress, but for all we know the Imperial Family knew it. Margaret could have leaked her concerns first.

Yes. Lay low because he was off guard. I'd suggested he was farther away and returning through Lishun Depot.

 

[Vargas]

I've always been fascinated that so many fans of CT and MT direct so much bile at the Virus yet many of those same players like the supplement Hard Times. In my opinion, Hard Times was really the supplement that killed the Imperium in the timeline. Anyone who read through Hard Times would have been hard pressed to say that the TI would have been able to come back from the events described in there.

Because of the existence of the Safes in Hard Times, I think it was an ultimately recoverable situation. However, I never liked the trashing of the setting. One reason in particular is because I like having advanced tech in my sci-fi and have never been a fan of "What happens when the tech gets taken away?"

We'll start by conveniently overlooking/ignoring the precise mechanics of how the Virus works and just say that it does work. I've found the Virus actually works perfectly fine as purely a software/program entity. There's no need for any of that "it burns new pathways into circuitboard" nonsense (though I've even come up with an explanation for that).

You're a better person than I for being able to ignore the precise mechanics.

The amount of data required for ID purposes coupled with a pretty basic firewall and cryptography makes the concept untenable, not to mention obviates the need for the living chips in the first place.

 

[savage]

Because of the existence of the Safes in Hard Times, I think it was an ultimately recoverable situation. ... pretty basic firewall and cryptography makes the concept untenable, not to mention obviates the need for the living chips in the first place.

Yeah. It's recoverable. We would hope archive processes, systems are pretty full proof by TL13-15. We would think the middle of a war would have these IT tech burying data a km underground to avoid scorched earth destruction. In some ways that is what appears to happen with the Vilani, but why would Terra, or Home be different. They should have all surfaced in 50 years.

As software security grows and encryptions becomes overwhelming, we should not assume that a Terminator liquid metal is the best form of invasive tool. I believe that would need to be physical touch not communications, but unless we have TL15 examples it is not easy to judge.
The problem with counting out Hard Times transfer is the "smash and grab" mentality. Grabbing tech from dying worlds is the "last" thing people should be doing, but its clearly their first objective.

 

[robject]

You can always change direction if you're the author and have interesting ways to do it that engage people rather than alienate them.

 

[Chuck Anumia]

How about a more limited Virus?

The New Era sees a depleted Imperium, held together by what military is left and many newly-minted dukes, being chewed on by opportunistic vargr, militant k'kree, and land-hungry aslan, who are also chewing on what's left of the Solomani. Corridor, an upper swath of Deneb, and the coremost worlds in the Marches are vargr now (or perhaps: once again). The remains of the Domain of Deneb's military is at half strength, and the vargr and aslan really become an actual problem. The Spinward Marches sees a rash of defections as border worlds declare independence and become client states. The Five Sisters is abandoned, and Daryen and Swordies expand their spheres of influence. The Zhodani mysteriously implode -- no Virus there, so what happened? The Federation of Arden strengthens, also mysteriously.

So, we still have the Imperium, struggling against the Black Curtain. We still have the Marches, although essentially cut off from the rest of the Imperium until the navy solves its Virus problem and a reconquista begins from both sides (that would be fun to be a part of). Meanwhile traders can work their way thru vargr space, which used to be Imperial. And the squabbling Factions have spent their dissenting energies, their leaders either dead or discredited or just replaced. So Rebellion is ended, Virus is a catalyst for it, but we don't have to lose the Imperium to get it.

YES!
I see LOTS of adventure opportunities in this scenario.
Thanks
(Also, I like the idea of completely AI occupied ships fighting against and defeating Virus in all its forms)

 

[rancke]

I'd support anything that made Virus make more sense. We have a program that not only infects computers but persuades them to make physical alterations in themselves? Something that jumps from ship to ship via the transponders and can "egg" in anything with a microprocessor?

My answer: Virus isn't a chip; it's a psionic gestalt whose favorite environment is Deyo chips, but it can handle other silicon environments. This is also why Virus can jump to the chips that the Imperium's neighbors stole and reverse-engineered for their own use¹.

¹ You didn't believe that nonsens about the Imperium's neighbors allowing Imperium-made black boxes installed in their ships, did you? When the Imperium demanded that all ships inside the Imperium used its transponders, all its neighbors banned all ship carrying those transponders from entering their teritories, following which pressure from the Imperium's commercial interests got that edict rescinded p.d.q.. That's my story, anyway.​

Hans

 

[savage]

You can always change direction if you're the author and have interesting ways to do it that engage people rather than alienate them.

Good idea. I don't know that any of the scenarios I've seen are alienating.
I do think people writing their TU Virus perspective adds to a rich gaming environment.

 

[McPerth]

Normally, the Virus is seen as doing this. I've always been fascinated that so many fans of CT and MT direct so much bile at the Virus yet many of those same players like the supplement Hard Times. In my opinion, Hard Times was really the supplement that killed the Imperium in the timeline. Anyone who read through Hard Times would have been hard pressed to say that the TI would have been able to come back from the events described in there. It certainly was the irretrievably point of the classic Third Imperium; MT's tagline was "adventuring in the shattered Imperium" but with Hard Times, I think that MT really moved to "adventuring in the post-Imperial Era."

I partially diagree in this reasoning. HT really killed TI, but left open (and in fact there were references to it in the oppening talks in some HT chapters) de door to a refundation, either as 4^th Imperium, as a republic, or as whatever it becomes.

It was the Virus that killed civilization (and with it the possibility or a reunification, even if not the TI again) in the former TI (and beyond).

 

[mike wightman]

It was Virus that killed the few remaining high TL enclaves - once their computers went on the fritz they had had it.

By the time that happened most worlds that couldn't support themselves with local (lower TL) technology were already dead or mostly dead.

I think people have long misunderstood the true capabilities of Virus - all it basically did was crash computers. In some high TL computers it was able to achieve an artificial intelligence, but while it was learning to control its new "body" it caused the fatal failure of the system. Very, very occasionally you would get a stable AI at the end of the process.

The only bit of the Virus story I find impossible to explain away is that the Imperium was able to lobotomise a sentient silicon based life form and require its installation in every ship inside the Imperium.

Virus + deyo chip had a synergy that was lacking in Virus + any other Imperial computer system.

I take some of the folk tales of the powers of Virus to be just that, folk tales with very little real evidence to back them up.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Within the context of "No Virus", i.e. the Rebellion occurs as in published sources, with the penultimate result being Hard Times with still a "Coronation Fleet" still occurring:

Does anyone have information on the specific reforms that Dulinor envisioned? Within the story I recall, that it was NOT JUST a power grab for personal gain and ego (that credit goes mostly to Lucan).

How would those ideas have changed by the time of the Coronation Fleet?

Assuming Dulinor won and took out Lucan, how would the "restored Imperium" be in this context?

 

[savage]

Within the context of "No Virus", i.e. the Rebellion occurs as in published sources, with the penultimate result being Hard Times with still a "Coronation Fleet" still occurring:

Does anyone have information on the specific reforms that Dulinor envisioned? Within the story I recall, that it was NOT JUST a power grab for personal gain and ego (that credit goes mostly to Lucan).

How would those ideas have changed by the time of the Coronation Fleet?

Assuming Dulinor won and took out Lucan, how would the "restored Imperium" be in this context?

Broken. Antares is gone, Solomani invaded, Vargr invaded...he would need to kill Stephon and Margaret too.

 

[epicenter00]

Does anyone have information on the specific reforms that Dulinor envisioned? Within the story I recall, that it was NOT JUST a power grab for personal gain and ego (that credit goes mostly to Lucan).

Dulinor wanted an Imperium that was more unified and more responsive to the needs of its peoples. What this would have involved has never been described.

In my heart, which cannot pass up irony, I imagine Dulinor's reforms would moved towards an Imperium like the Regency as described TNE though I think Dulinor was enough of a realist to realize he couldn't do even 50% of what happened there. I think this because at the time, GDW was very much caught up in the 1990s "Fall-of-the-Berlin-Wall" stuff and the flowering of democracy and all that mood.

 

[savage]

Dulinor wanted an Imperium that was more unified and more responsive to the needs of its peoples. What this would have involved has never been described.

In my heart, which cannot pass up irony, I imagine Dulinor's reforms would moved towards an Imperium like the Regency as described TNE though I think Dulinor was enough of a realist to realize he couldn't do even 50% of what happened there. I think this because at the time, GDW was very much caught up in the 1990s "Fall-of-the-Berlin-Wall" stuff and the flowering of democracy and all that mood.

Dulinor may have been pushed in this direction by having the wrong people around him. There are few reasons he had to kill the guy that promoted him.
Federation and Regency with an agenda of peace (very Dlan) may have been a focus. Psionics may be another. The oppression was emotional based on something that happened log ago.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Broken. Antares is gone, Solomani invaded, Vargr invaded...he would need to kill Stephon and Margaret too.

Yes, indeed. We are playing "alternate history" with a fictional setting here soo...

Based on the OP for everyone reading, how do you define "No Virus"? The Rebellion still happens because it occurs independent and prior to the existence of Virus. Sure GDW directed the storyline, but this only about "No Virus". Rebellion still occurs. Deal with it.

Does it mean that Virus exists, but was not released into Charted Space? i.e. Lucan creates Research Station Omicron back in 1118, Virus is developed, but the Coronation Fleet does not release it by accident.

It was never developed? Research Station Omicron existed and was created back 1118, but no Virus came of it, perhaps rumors nothing more.

Research Station Omicron never existed? Interesting implications here because the Coronation Fleet might not have had a reason to even stop off at Celetron in the first place. Would there have even been a Coronation Fleet then?

Peeling the onion layers back...

 

[mike wightman]

The deyo chip and Virus never existed. In fact just ignore Survival Margin so no Coronation Fleet either.

 

[savage]

Yes, indeed. We are playing "alternate history" with a fictional setting here soo...

Based on the OP for everyone reading, how do you define "No Virus"? ...
Peeling the onion layers back...

Virus or No Virus does not really matter. The OTU is in need of change. Some adjust Virus to be more typical for our comprehension. They don't remove it and add cohesive elements of mutual attrition. I keep it, never allowing it to become a superbeing, change its creation, etc.


As Mike mentioned, remove Survival Margin and you stretch out the Rebellion. I'd also say reduce Lucan's overwhelming advantage is a problem. Coronation Fleet consists of Dulinor taking "all" of his ships and marching to Capital. Why stop at Omicron? Does he need a secret weapon if he "really" has an advantage?

 

[Vargas]

Virus or No Virus does not really matter. The OTU is in need of change.

Respectfully I think it's a matter of taste. I personally like the OTU of the Golden Age of CT just fine, but then again I like playing the game at the "working stiff" level and don't deal with exploration a lot.

 

[Chuck Anumia]

Timeline for a virus free Rebellion

I see the rebellion (without Virus) as a grinding, prolonged war between the major powers while a lot of trade is disrupted between war zones but relatively unaffected in far reaching areas of the Imperium.

1117
Fleets are called to action from the sectors Vland, Corridor, Lishan. Anteres, Fornast, Daugukashaag, Ilelish, Zarushagar, Massila, Delphi, Old Expanses and Daibei. Elite Naval couriers (Jump-6) using a secretive shortcut through the Great Rift had delivered the news to Archduke Norris at Regina news about the Assassinations in just 49 weeks - 2 weeks ahead of the "official" news. Dulinors' fleets clashed with Lucan's fleets in systems midway between Capital and Dlan. Solomani Confederation fleets in the Imperial border crossed it as soon as official word of the assassination reached them. The border was pushed forward some 20 parsecs. Corridor felt the sting of Vargr plunderers almost immediately. The Old Expanses was already under Solomani attack and the withdrawal of the Imperial fleet left the Sector's nobles no alternative but to surrender.

1118
The Rebellion, also known as the Second Civil War (to distinguish it from the First Civil War) and the Final War, was the undoing of the Imperium. Fleets from Corridor, The nobles of Vland Sector felt threatened by the advances of Vargr in neighboring Lishun and Corridor sectors. When Lucan demanded a portion of Vland's fleets to reinforce the assault on Dulinor, Vland refused and declared its independence as the "new" (recreated) Vilani Empire.
Lucan ordered the Daibei Sector fleet to transfer to Zarushagaar Sector to reinforce his battle lines against Dulinor. The sector nobles refused this order and announced that they would take an independent and neutral path. Imperium wide mercantile shipping hull percentages dropped by 25% due to casualties during the fighting between factions in rebellion.

1119
Duke Murata leaves his realm for the safety of Margaret's Stronghold.
Mongrebi Trade Conference officially ceases operations as the participants are now scattered by the Rebellion. Akagi Transport Corporation collapses from the effects of the Rebellion.
In 1119 the Rebellion settled down to a dedicated battle to the death between Lucan and Dulinor.
Other factions contributed their forces to resolving squabbles between them, picking away at Lucan or Dulinor or both, or just trying to survive the chaos that was enveloping the empire. Imperium wide mercantile shipping hull percentages dropped by 20% due to casualties during the fighting between factions in rebellion.

1120
The Rebellion reaches a tipping point where the majority of the Naval forces have now been destroyed.
Duchy Victoria declares Independent Duchy of Oasis as an independent state from the Third Imperium.
Aslan Hlearkhea invaded the Belgariad Sojourn and quickly swept aside the feeble defenses.
By 1120 the factions had destroyed the mighty Imperial Navy. At the beginning of the war there were 320 numbered fleets and an equal number of reserve fleets, by the end of the year there were fewer than 95 numbered and 130 reserve fleets, and those reduced to 60% strength or less. Imperium wide mercantile shipping hull percentages dropped by 15% due to casualties during the fighting between factions in rebellion.

1121
The Rebellion factions continued to hammer away at each other with what force they had left. However, limited resources dictated warfare to devolve into banditry, surgical strikes and terrorism.
The Federation of Arden announced the addition of two worlds Caloran (Spinward Marches 0911) and Rangent (Spinward Marches 1411) to the Federation. Imperium wide mercantile shipping hull percentages dropped by 12% due to casualties during the fighting between factions in rebellion.

1122
Khulam Subsector was declared an Intensive War Zone in 1118 and remained the scene of the bitterest Imperial-Solomani fighting until 1122.
Duke Starkar Beres, the subsector Duke of Promise Subsector stripped of his title by Lucan.
Economic conditions, already shaky from years of warfare, worsened. Governments in the frontier areas, formulating their own survival, became neutral or opposed the war. The factions, not having the resources to hold questionable areas, saw their areas of control shrink. Imperium wide mercantile shipping hull percentages dropped by 18% due to casualties during the fighting between factions in rebellion, Aslan and Vargr attacks.

1123
The Arrival Vengance, a Lightning class frontier cruiser leaves the Domain of Deneb under secret orders from Archduke Norris. Imperium wide mercantile shipping hull percentages dropped by 11% due to casualties during the fighting between factions in rebellion.

1124
The Corsairs controlling Rugbird/Aramis (Spinward Marches 3102) are driven off by the Domain of Deneb naval forces. Imperium wide mercantile shipping hull percentages dropped by 13% due to casualties during the fighting between factions in rebellion.

1125
The ecomomy of Drayrk collapses causing a massive social disruption and starvation of the population.
Due to lack of external funding, the corporate governship of Toraago is forced to sell most of its manufacturing equipment to offworlders and convert to agricultural production. Officials of the Exeter Federated Shipbuilders announced the establishment of a new program to ease the burden of commerce raiding that has plagued the war-torn Diaspora Sector. They will cooperate in creating sets of standardized, simplified plans for the conversion of commercial ships to military purposes, which will be distributed throughout the Diaspora Sector while waiving the normal architecture fee. Imperium wide mercantile shipping hull percentages dropped by 14% due to casualties during the fighting between factions in rebellion.

1126
Norris manages to make peace with the Aslan and turns his fleets toward the Vargr menance of the Kforuzeng.
The Aslan participate as allies in the operation.

1127
Gagushilaag is forced to abandon its starport.
The Ecclesiasty of Narquel is founded in Diaspora.
The Cumberan Confederation is founded in Diaspora.
Uneshuu is taken over by a band of corsairs, formerly Lucan's Imperium naval forces.
Earluiloiw settled by Hlyueawi, an Aslan clan and becomes their capital.
Six Gun's Colonial Army, returning after serving in Daibei, overthrow the world government and install themselves as rulers.

1128
Karroo was seized by a mercenary company built around a renegade Army platoon from Lucan’s Imperium.

1129
Pharoah's Plague, the massive release by the Garronean government of anti-Aslan chemical and biological agents on ihatei occupied worlds took place.

1130
The Vargr corsair group Kforuzeng, under assault from the Imperial fleet, loses their main base.
The Domain of Deneb, weary of fighting the Vargr, withdraw from Corridor, leaving it to the Vargr to plunder.
The Federation of Garrone completes their program of anti-Aslan biological warfare against their worlds invaded by ihatei. While successful in allowing the Garrone to reclaim their invaded worlds, the political and ecological backlash was severe.

And I see the years following being filled with entire systems tired of war making alliances of defense and trade which will possibly permanently split the 3I and leave a much smaller 4I.
Major Political Groups:
Regency of Deneb/Spinward Marches.
Zru sirkaa
Vargr Extents
Vilani Empire.
League of Antares
Gateway Protectorate
3I/4I (Core)
Grand Duchy of Wenly Ruu
Federation of Ilelish
Delphine Empire
Federation of Deabei
Glimmerift Federation
Old Expanses Commonwealth
Solomani Confederation

 

[savage]

Respectfully I think it's a matter of taste. I personally like the OTU of the Golden Age of CT just fine, but then again I like playing the game at the "working stiff" level and don't deal with exploration a lot.

I think that is what I said.
However, to be clear, the OTU includes the Rebellion and Virus. Certain events of the rebellion and feasibility of the Virus are in question.
Dulinor sends fleets across the Imperium to Fronast, Trade has not completely collapsed a couple years into the rebellion, Virus transfers by communications, The Solomani appear allpowerful, etc.